The Problems with Dust?

[Holien]

Hi,

I was lucky to be shown the new CMAK this weekend and I have a general question to ask about one of it's new features.

What I noticed was that even in a FFOW game when you had no direct LOS to the enemy you could work out how many vehicles the enemy had.

By looking at the dust clouds I could see clearly that on one flank there were 4 seperate vehicles.

My question is should this be the case?

In real desert warfare would you be able to approximate the number of vehicles comming at you?

Is there an argument to tone down the dust clouds, or to make them less distinct?

I guess you could always drive the vehicles closer together to try and fool your opponent?

Anyway a great new edition to the series and the Graphics seem crisper and better than CMBB.

H

[Ace Pilot]

Could you clarify someting? It sounds like you are saying that each vehicle generates its own dust cloud and there is no "blending together" of dust clouds, even when they are close together. Is that correct?

[Holien]

Hi,

That was the way it appeared, but I had a brief look and do not want to cause any controvesy.

Perhaps someone from the beta team can explain what they have agreed upon.

If this is still tweakable then all I am doing is raising a slight concern.

Please remember all I saw was a beta and this might not be the case with the game.

Does anyone have any info on how the dust clouds were viewed by the combatants of the period.

Also, I am hoping that when you drive down a road / area and it is damp that the effect is lessened.

H

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Holien:

In real desert warfare would you be able to approximate the number of vehicles comming at you?

That depends on a lot of things. Like, the formation they are moving in: column, line abreast, or something else. How fast the the wind is blowing and from what direction. What kind of vehicles they are and how fast they are moving.

Generally a small cloud of dust meant few vehicles and a big cloud meant lots, but there were interesting exceptions. Before the Gazala battles, Rommel wanted the Brits to believe he meant to attack through the middle of the line. So he ordered that aero engines complete with props be mounted on truck chasis. These were driven towards the middle of the line, blowing up huge clouds of sand making it look as though large formations of tanks were being moved into position there.

Michael

[Holien]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

Could you clarify someting? It sounds like you are saying that each vehicle generates its own dust cloud and there is no "blending together" of dust clouds, even when they are close together. Is that correct?

Hi I thought i should be more specific.

Yes each vehicle appeared to generate it's own cloud.

The vehicles were some distance apart and the clouds did not appear to merge. That could be down to wind, or lack of it?

I did not do extensive tests as I was having a sneak peak and it was just a thought that popped into my head and I am like you seaking clarification.

Micheal thanks for that and I guess the game will have people buying trucks to provide a defensive smoke screen. Or maybe Italian tanks retreating into their own dust clouds?

H

[Sirocco]

If the vehicles were some distance apart I'd expect to see more dense individual dust clouds that perhaps merge in their wake, assuming they were travelling in the same direction. When closer together they might merge more quickly. You also have to take into consideration that you can view the dust clouds from so many angles, which was obviously not the case then.

[Holien]

Yep the game allows us a top down view and when using this you can see how many vehicles are coming if they are spaced apart.

This will mean that you will have to keep vehicles together to try an mask your numbers.

Not sure if there is a solution to this, or if there needs to be one.

Just a feature to be aware of.

H

[PeterX]

This dust thing, though welcome in theory, may be dragging in its wake a host of unsettling ramifications.

In real desert warfare would you be able to approximate the number of vehicles comming at you?

IOW, you want to be able determine whether there a few, some, or a lot of AFVs coming over that ridge? But you don't want to be able to determine if there are precisely 2, 6, or 14. That sounds reasonable.

Also, do different sized vehicles generate distinct clouds? Do Tigers raise more menacing cumuli than early war Italian tankettes? What about kubelwagons? 10 Kubelwagons! How much does they cost? Hmmm.... Some of the gamier ladder players will be besides themselves with anticipation. Questions, questions....

[ October 27, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by PeterX:

...you want to be able determine whether there a few, some, or a lot of AFVs coming over that ridge? But you don't want to be able to determine if there are precisely 2, 6, or 14. That sounds reasonable.

I don't know. In many of the accounts I have read, they often mention very specific numbers of enemy vehicles spotted. The numbers may or may not have been accurate, but they certainly weren't indefinite.

Hmmm.... Some of the gamier ladder players will be besides themselves with anticipation. Questions, questions....

Clearly you are among their number.

Michael

[Andreas]

Mark was at the pre-preview at my place, arranged to make the one next week a bit easier for numbers, and because he and Jim could not make it next week.

The basic setting was a wind-still, very hot day. The vehicles were spaced apart, abreast on one side, and space apart and one behind the other on the other side. Dust clouds did merge, but only in the wake of the vehicles, so you could clearly see that there were four vehicles moving at one point. With windy conditions, that changes.

Deception tactics can be used to alleviate this problem. Place tanks close to each other. Have carriers or trucks go like mad somewhere out of LOS. Advance in line. All sorts of stuff that adds another level of complexity to the game.

[Moon]

From my experience - yes, if you play REALLY close attention, you might be able to get a good estimate of vehicles MOVING. At least for a couple of turns. And at least when the other guy isn't trying to deceive you, e.g. by moving vehicles in bounds, or moving them back and forth, or moving them faster or slower, or by rotating them and so on. And at least when there aren't too many vehicles around, or shell impacts, or other stuff causing smoke (muzzle blast can do it). And at least when there isn't much wind, which tends to dissipate and MOVE dust clouds all around the battlefield.

So yes, there will be problems with dust, but largely they should be the same kind of "problems" faced by real-world commanders in the desert. Is it a 100% perfect solution? Hardly.

I know that I personally am simply too lazy to keep too much track of it, at least more than "oh, something is moving there". I think that the beta AAR over at wargamer.com does a pretty good job of showing how it works in game.

Martin

[Holien]

Thanks...

I am happy.

Glad to see Andreas doing a bit of testing...

I better stop teasing or he won't play that nice music tape for me again...

The one he brought back from Japan. Mind you 6am was a bit early in my book for jumping up and down...

H

P.s. Andreas as always was an absolute gent and he will not post the orrible photo he took with his new 5 Mega Pix toy....

(Save your money and buy some cooking utensils...)

[Kwazydog]

Also guys, note that dust creation is actually based on a lot of factors and is calculated for each square metre (dont quote me there, but it is something like that) of ground.

For instance, under certain conditions and 81mm round may not create dust, yet a 81mm barrage may create dust towards the centre of the barrage where many seperate rounds have impacted.

Yes, in certain conditions (desert on dry hot days) you will be able to see individual dust clouds kicked up by vehicles, but this isnt particually unrealistic as mentioned above, particually in the desert where terrain is usually flatter. Vehicle types really can be defined though, so you could be watching recon vehicles or tanks, or carefully place kubelwagons

In Italy, dust is rarely kicked up by vehicles and usually only on dirt roads in dryer conditions. Artillery does though, and it looks particually cool, hehe.

I know that I have been keeping an eye out for possible cheats using dust myself, and I dont beleive it to be a problem. Although its not a perfect simulation of dust it does do a very good job and its benifits far outweight its concerns in my opinion. If it is really a concern though, players can simply set the ground conditions to damp and most dust will be non-existant.

Dan

[Snarker]

Hmmm. A quick question. If you have dust clouds between your lone spotting unit and motion beyond that cloud will dust appear even though it's out of the los of your unit? In other words, does dust hide dust? Or do we get another dust cloud regardless?

[Holien]

Originally posted by Snarker:

Hmmm. A quick question. If you have dust clouds between your lone spotting unit and motion beyond that cloud will dust appear even though it's out of the los of your unit? In other words, does dust hide dust? Or do we get another dust cloud regardless?

Hi,

The reason why I raised it was that it appeared even though you had no LOS to it.

Think of it as if it was rising up very high.

Dan your further explantion has rested my questions and I am glad the usual level of thought has gone into it.

Your words have answered all my questions and I will go back to lurk mode...

H

(That is Until I find words and the time to ask a question on multi gunned turret control...)

[SgtMuhammed]

In regards to an earlier comment I think vehicle speed would count more than type or size in determining the size of the dust cloud raised.

A Tiger creeping along at 5 miles an hour isn't disturbing much air which is what pushes the dust high enough to really be noticed. A jeep flying across the sand at 50 mph is disturbing a lot of air as well as throwing up a lot more dust. Thus a more noticable cloud.

In RL you can pick out individual clouds if the conditions are right. While this may not tell you how many vehicles there are you can tell how many groups there are (although deception can always come into the picture).

Then again I once spotted an M1 that was hiding behind a hedge because I could see the heat waves from his turbine. If you pay attention you can see all kinds of things on the battlefield.

Stay alert, stay alive.

[Horncastle]

Then again I once spotted an M1 that was hiding behind a hedge because I could see the heat waves from his turbine. If you pay attention you can see all kinds of things on the battlefield.

Wow, call me thick but you are talking about a definite feature in CMAK yes? Heat haze sounds a really neat idea, how do they represent it in the game? Is it abstracted and say in this instance you get the tank ? silloutte and a heat haze? description, or do you actually get a blurring of the graphics in the area

as well?

Thanks Peter

[Holien]

Hmmmm are you serious Horncastle...

I think a M1 is something outside the scope of the CMBB engine.

Maybe CMX2 when they do a cold war game.

Kip you can jump in here.

H

[Redwolf]

Holien, do I understand that correctly that the dust clouds appear independently of LOS?

That means 4 moving vehicles, = 4 dust clouds shown to opponent even if there is no LOS of any of his units to the vehicles or the space above the vehicles.

My understanding is that they work like the CMBO/CMBB smoke from burning vehicles you never spotted. You see the smoke even when you have no LOS to the smoke pillar.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Holien:

Hmmmm are you serious Horncastle...

I think a M1 is something outside the scope of the CMBB engine.

Yes. However, I just finished reading The South Albertas, and it contains a couple of nice anecdotes about how good observation on the battlefield can ruin the other guys day.

Feb or Mar 1945, across the Rhine on the border between Germany and Holland:

1) a tank commander was being harrassed from across a canal by a German MG that kept moving around. After one particular burst, the TC noticed that the all the cows in the field beyond were staring intently at a particular spot on the canal bank. After studying that spot closely he finally spotted the German.

2) Similar situation, with a TC being harrassed by a constantly moving MG. Then the TC noticed heat shimmer which could only have been coming from the barrel of the MG. He zeroed in on the spot, waited for the MG to come back, and killed him when he opened up from that spot again.

(Incidentally, these examples also show how dangerous it is to fall into habits or routines when in contact with the enemy)

Regards

JonS

[Holien]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Holien, do I understand that correctly that the dust clouds appear independently of LOS?

That means 4 moving vehicles, = 4 dust clouds shown to opponent even if there is no LOS of any of his units to the vehicles or the space above the vehicles.

Hi Redwolf...

Yep that is the way it appeared. No LOS but you could see from the birds eye view the dust clouds moving towards you.

The BETA team will no doubt correct me if I am wrong.

As discussed above I have no problem with it as per Dan's points.

H

[Kwazydog]

Yes, that is how it works, though as I said vehicles only create dust under certain conditions. It is either do it this way and have dust play a tactical role in the desert or have it as eye candy behind spotted vehicles. As this sort of dust mainly shows in the desert where the terrain is usually reasonably flat, and then only under certain conditions, it works fine as far as Im concerned (and I did have the same concerns as you guys) .

Dan

[MikeyD]

No no no! Dust isn't a 'problem', it's a 'feature'!

What you witnessed in the preview is exactly what board members have been lobbying hard for in the game. Dust is the single biggest feature that moves CMAK one notch above CMBB. It's a newly added tactical element in gameplay.

'Dust' isn't just moving vehicle dust. It's also the dust kicked up by an otherwise hidden 88 when it fires its weapon, its the dust that briefly blocks your LOS when your round falls short of a target.

Dust - in a word - is cool.

As to vehicle counting, units moving across a battlefield would tend to keep a prescribed distance between vehicles due to the risk of artillery/air attack. This would make vehicle counting from individual dust clouds quite possible to a sharp-eyed observer.

[ October 31, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Conscript Bagger]

What about the AI? Does it react to moving dust, or wait until it actually spots vehicles?

[Broken]

Originally posted by PeterX:

Also, do different sized vehicles generate distinct clouds? Do Tigers raise more menacing cumuli than early war Italian tankettes? What about kubelwagons? 10 Kubelwagons! How much does they cost? Hmmm.... Some of the gamier ladder players will be besides themselves with anticipation. Questions, questions....

Why would it be gamey to use a tactic historically used by Rommel? Then again, Rommel was a gamey SOB.