Kapitein KAB Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Hey guys, is there any way that you can make sure that when u shoot&scoot out off full cover, that you shoot from hull down position? Or do you just have to read the terrain. If reading terrain is the way to go, how then do you correctly estimate where on a slope is hull down position? (maybe a screenshot for this anyone?) greetz from Holland 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Whether your tank is hull up or down obviously depends on your target's location: if you know the target's location, you can aim at the spot with "seek hull down" command, and your armor will slowly creep up the crest of the hill until it sees the spot. Sadly, this command cannot be combined with any other order, so if you want your tank to shoot & scoot, you'll just have to rely on your senses. Take the camera angle to ground level, and try see how high the turret of your tank is from ground level. Then try to get a "turret's view" to the target to plot the ideal "shoot" waypoint. It takes a bit of practice, but you'll be almost guaranteed to find the best spot after a bit of practice. Of course, there has been some debate recently on whether being hull down is beneficial at all, due to the generally poorer armor that the turret has in comparison to the rest of the tank... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 For various reasons--including the non-guarantee of finding hulldown--I've pretty much abandoned shoot-and-scoot and rely on the hunt command. That seems to me to allow one's tankers a lot more leeway and they tend to live longer that way. In my experience, a tank hunting toward the crest of a ridge will stop as soon as it finds hulldown relative to a target. If the target is too strong, it will pop smoke and back away. If the target is juicy, it will remain in hulldown and keep firing until something scary comes along--at which point it will pop smoke and back away. I find this much preferable to shoot-and-scoot, where the tank is locked into a fast move to a specified way point. If you've miscalculated that, you shoot past the ideal hulldown position and expose your tank. Or you could fail to see over the ridge and miss an easy kill. If the tank finds any target--including a nasty Tiger or Panther-- it's required to stay in position till it gets off a shot. But it will take only one shot. This lingering to take one shot could prove fatal if the target proves scary but it can also mean you'll miss some sure kills if the targets prove juicy. I understand that relying on hunt as I approach that ridgeline means that occasionally my tanks will back away when the should stand and fight but I'll take that over creating a whole bunch of burning hulks, which is what invariably seems to happen when I use shoot and scoot. So, anyway, I personally have dropped shoot and scoot from my arsenal of tank moves--and that goes for the iffy "seek hulldown" as well. The hunt command is much improved over CMBO and the discretionary valor it allows my tankers is what I'll stick with. [ February 21, 2004, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 It has been stated that the shoot & scoot command is more practical if your tanks has a slow ROF or if it tends to withdraw rather than fight easy targets (or both, the IS-2). Hunt will also make your tank more vulnerable against hidden AT assets: with shoot & scoot, these weapons have little chance to zero in on your tank before it reverses back to safety. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 if your tank hunts towards the top of the ridgeline the first shot it gets at an enemy is in hull down position. i only ever use shoot n shoot when i've got a "rabbit" to attract a Tigers attention. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Kapitein KAB: Hey guys, is there any way that you can make sure that when u shoot&scoot out off full cover, that you shoot from hull down position? Or do you just have to read the terrain. If reading terrain is the way to go, how then do you correctly estimate where on a slope is hull down position? (maybe a screenshot for this anyone?) greetz from Holland No there isn't any guarantee for Shoot&Scoot, you have to 'read the terrain' for that. The Hunt command is the safe way to go if you are unsure. However, once you have played with it awhile finding that hulldown position isn't all that difficult; it is actually quite a large area just before the 'crest'. Personally I don't like Shoot&Scoot because the AFV doesn't stick around long enough, though as mentioned it is handy for a distraction before your main AFVs engage. Neither do I prefer Hunt much if there is an obvious 'crest', because CM will usually stop the AFV in such a position that the target is hulldown also. I prefer to use Fast and go that extra couple meters to ensure the target isn't hulldown in relation to me. Ron 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Interesting point, Ron. Are you sure you are retaining your own hull down status by going the extra couple meters to remove HIS hull down status? I'll have to try that one out. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansbach Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Question: in the real war, how much cover did a tank need to be considered hull down? 25%? 50%? Take a Sherman for example - they were just under 10ft high - how many feet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 What CombinedArms said, hunt is pretty impressive, particularly the smoke pop reaction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Treeburst155: Interesting point, Ron. Are you sure you are retaining your own hull down status by going the extra couple meters to remove HIS hull down status? I'll have to try that one out. Treeburst155 out. Pretty sure, like 99.9%! It has been awhile but IIRC upon approaching a crestline CM gives you like '5-6m' where you are hulldown in relation to your target. Within the first half of those 5-6m your target will be hulldown also; this is usually where CM stops your AFV when using the Hunt command. I say 'usually' because it isn't always so do to spotting/reactions etc. In the second half of those 5-6m you are still hulldown to the target but it no longer is to you, and is where I want my AFV to be. In more varied terrain(thinking more of slight undulations here) where it is more difficult to get an idea of being hulldown then I will use the Hunt command. Like you referenced in another thread, I take a certain pleasure also in micromanaging my forces to get that so-called *perfect* position and coordination. Edit: Just did a quick check in the editor and it still holds true for CMAK. Ron [ February 22, 2004, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Ron ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerousdave Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I have been finding my tanks getting creamed when I use the shoot and scoot and the enemey knows where they are. However, I have used it pretty effectively for surprise shots with units, the positions of which were previously unknown to the enemy. I had been thinking it was the command of choice for those lightly armored tank hunters to execute a surprise shot and then go back to hiding, then move position out of LOS... But after reading about the differences here, I might even use hunt in those situations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Ron's revelation in this thread is VERY big news IMO. With the target hull up, and yourself hull down, you will find luck going your way more often than not. This is really good stuff. Thanks, Ron! "Seek Hull Down" and "Shoot & Scoot" are valuable commands to me; but only in very specialized situations. They can be dangerous commands. I don't use these commands much; but I'm glad they are there when I need them. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapitein KAB Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Should have started this thread sooner! In my current PBEM I already lost most of my AT halftracks to some pesky PzKfW III's, even while I helt all the objectives, so there was no reason to show my dumb little face over the crest! Well that's ANOTHER lesson. Luckily real commanders train before they go into action........(I hope) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 "in the real war, how much cover did a tank need to be considered hull down?" In the real world a tank was considered hull-down when in was hull-down! Hull-down means the hull is masked by terrain with the turret poking up (up just enough for the gun to clear the hill). Percentages I guess would only measure how competent a commander you were. If 50% of the tank is masked by terrain but the turret only takes up 39% of the frontal area that means you did a sloppy job getting into position. If you've managed to work your way to 30% masked but your gun isn't clearing the terrain ahead of it then your tank's as good as useless. Turret-down means everything is masked by terrain with the commander just able to peer over the crest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I thought the tank crew picked the horizon through the gun sights, so they'd just barely have visual to the front end of their intended kill zone. That way the the turret would be as low as it could go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The tricky part for CM is that while in the real world hulldown is more or unmistakable (is most of the tank covered? but can the gun point out over the ridge or obstruction?) in CM it almost has to be a grey area, especially when we're dealing with the crest of a hill. I guess that means that CM has to allow a larger leeway for finding hulldown (or players would never find it.) I believe CMBB and AK make it easier than CMBO. Ron's idea of fast moving further to unmask the enemy's hulldown position is certainly an interesting idea...it does seem risky to me though. There's always the chance that you'll shoot past the hulldown point and a tank that much higher up on the ridge has that much further to come down if something scary pokes its head out. Plus, as he suggests, it sounds like more work than hunt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Hey guys, is there any way that you can make sure that when u shoot&scoot out off full cover, that you shoot from hull down position? Or do you just have to read the terrain. Use 'Move to contact', and add enough delay so that your tank begins moving 50 seconds into the turn. If it spots an enemy it will stop to engage, and 99% of the time it will do so from a hull down position. When the next turn begins you can issue a reverse command, and often times the delay in that is around 5 seconds, the same as the shoot and scoot. The one advantage to this, besides the automatic hull down, is that you decide if your tank is to stay in the fight. If it encounters a superior enemy, or more than one, then reverse him down. But if he kills the enemy, or catches him in a vunerable position, then you can keep him in, all the while firing from a hull down position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: The one advantage to this, besides the automatic hull down, is that you decide if your tank is to stay in the fight.Well, works with just about any command, but that's an important point: by delaying the order, you can guarantee that you can also order the vehicle to reverse out of harms way, if it's about to face a deadly duel. Sadly, this also works for the enemy, who has the chance to direct all of his guns to fire at your tank at the following turn: unless the reverse order activates at lightning speed, the peeking tank risks being turned to swiss cheese. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 "I thought the tank crew picked the horizon through the gun sights" That works most of the time, but remember some vehicles (like the early Sherman and most modern-day MBTs) had the gun sight on the roof and not coaxial with the gun. That means if you peer over a ridge with a couple inches to spare through your roof sight the gun may be just a couple inches SHORT of clearing the ridge! If you then fire a HE round you could get a really nasty surprise a couple feet in front of you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kingfish: The one advantage to this, besides the automatic hull down, is that you decide if your tank is to stay in the fight.Well, works with just about any command, but that's an important point: by delaying the order, you can guarantee that you can also order the vehicle to reverse out of harms way, if it's about to face a deadly duel. Sadly, this also works for the enemy, who has the chance to direct all of his guns to fire at your tank at the following turn: unless the reverse order activates at lightning speed, the peeking tank risks being turned to swiss cheese. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: "I thought the tank crew picked the horizon through the gun sights" That works most of the time, but remember some vehicles (like the early Sherman and most modern-day MBTs) had the gun sight on the roof and not coaxial with the gun. That means if you peer over a ridge with a couple inches to spare through your roof sight the gun may be just a couple inches SHORT of clearing the ridge! If you then fire a HE round you could get a really nasty surprise a couple feet in front of you! One of the requirements of a gunner is to ensure that the bore is “crest clear” (i.e. open the breach and look down the bore to ensure you don’t see dirt). I‘ve had to charge a commander and a gunner for not doing this. 1st round slammed into the dirt some 3m in front of the vehicle, the gunner gave the response “not observed” (because he didn’t see the trace or fall of shot) and promptly fired again on the same lay. Two nice holes just in front of the vehicle and a lot of external fittings blown off! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Use Cover Arc Armor command with combination of Shoot & Scoot. That makes even IS-2 bit more eager to fire sooner, thus increasing it's lifespan. Cheers, M.S. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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