More CMx2 Wishlist .

[Paul AU]

If there was one thing I would sacrifice a goat for to influence the BFC gods during their Creation of CMx2, it would be improved Line Of Sight displays.

The LOS-finder in CMx1 is good. But I reckon that the most annoying thing about CM is the “work” involved in determining tile-to-tile LOS, so many times. And it’s so vital. And it only works from tiles you have units in.

Perfect, would be: click on a “tile” (even unoccupied ones), then select “show all in-sight tiles”, which are then highlighted. It can be done.

I’d be prepared to wait for the time it takes a PC to work that out.

Yes, I know, realism. “But you don’t know what that enemy-held hill can see”.

But nevertheless I want to trade slavish time-consuming player LOS-checking, which we can all do, tile-by-tile, for a faster no-pain two-click display. It’s worth a goat.

(I realise that LOS is influenced by things like binoculars, and can be variable depending on the unit. But still).

That would be the one best improvement CMx2 could have.

(P.S., oh yeah, and I have this idea… there should be a “ditch” terrain tile… like a “wall” tile, only with negative elevation and semi-trench qualities. What’s war without ditches?)

(You think one goat will be enough?)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Paul AU:

Perfect, would be: click on a “tile” (even unoccupied ones), then select “show all in-sight tiles”, which are then highlighted. It can be done.

[screams of outrage from the grog community.]

Sorry, that's just a little too much information at the player's disposal. I'll compromise with you though to the extent that I think you should be able to click on one of your units and see whatever it can see. But that's as far as I'll go on this.

If you want to know what can be seen from that hilltop on the enemy's side of the map, just go park the camera there and pan it around. That's already more information than a real life soldier would have.

Michael

[Paul AU]

But Michael, like I said, you *can* go to that spot, and look "manually", can't you? I mean, by going down to "level 1" (as accurate as that may be) and panning around?

So you *can* already check lines of sight from any spot. It just takes a bloody long time and effort.

("Look manually"? There's something wrong with that sentence...)(I think I put my finger on it, though))

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Paul AU:

So you *can* already check lines of sight from any spot. It just takes a bloody long time and effort.

As well it should. In fact, it should be even bloody harder. Every time you try to do that, a member of the BFC staff should leap between you and the monitor screen so that you can't see, then move the camera back to your side of the map and stand behind you to make damn sure you don't try that again, you gamey bastiche.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Michael

[Paul AU]

Oh.

(Gameyness is the last refuge of the... average gamer).

[Michael Emrys]

Yes. Shame, shame on you, naughty boy. You'll go without your tea today.

(Much better to just deal yourself +200% larger forces.)

Michael

[junk2drive]

"If you want to know what can be seen from that hilltop on the enemy's side of the map, just go park the camera there and pan it around. "

When I do that, I still can't see how that ATG just ko'd my tank through the trees.

And the human view is always the same, but some units have better optics than others.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Paul AU:

If there was one thing I would sacrifice a goat for to influence the BFC gods during their Creation of CMx2, it would be improved Line Of Sight displays.

(You think one goat will be enough?)

Well

we are not playing a game with hexes any more

in fact even the tiles are gone.

So what you are asking for an LOS check from one point, where you have NO UNITS to EVERYWHERE else on the map. Correct?

Perhaps what you should be doing is playing with Fog of War off, because that sounds like what you want. Fog of War has four optional settings now, does it not? FOW off will show you everything, then there is partial FOW then there is (for lack of the better term) "standard' FOW then there is Extreme FOW. Why not just try Partial FOW or no FOW, then you will see what you want without having to change how LOS works to your more "gamey"/less realistic liking?

The grogs on this board are looking for a Military Simulation that lets these enthusiasts simulate battle field conditions as realistically as possible without actually getting shot at

So most folks here would tell you that you SHOULD NOT BE ABLE to see anything on the map that one of your OWN units does not have LOS to! (meaning No Virtual Soldier's eyes on target = NO PEAKING for you!) For many of us here this is a very big aspect of Relative Spotting and getting the "realism" in the simulation more correctly modeled than it is now.

Hope that helps

-tom w

[ February 07, 2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Andrew H.]

I think the idea of a "show all LOS" command that a unit could use would be useful and not particularly unrealistic, since units can, generally, know what they have line of sight to simply by looking around. On the other hand, a show all LOS command executed from an unoccupied location is, IMO, unrealistic and shouldn't be in the game. Using the camera to zoom around an unoccupied area is also unrealistic, of course, although it can be seen as sort of representing the knowledge that units might glean from studying or from having studied the map. (It is, of course, better than that, but it's still an approximation).

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Lord Peter:

I think the idea of a "show all LOS" command that a unit could use would be useful and not particularly unrealistic, since units can, generally, know what they have line of sight to simply by looking around. On the other hand, a show all LOS command executed from an unoccupied location is, IMO, unrealistic and shouldn't be in the game. Using the camera to zoom around an unoccupied area is also unrealistic, of course, although it can be seen as sort of representing the knowledge that units might glean from studying or from having studied the map. (It is, of course, better than that, but it's still an approximation).

That's pretty much my thinking on the subject.

Michael

[Yair Iny]

While I agree with the views expressed here about the unrealistic nature of being able to determine LOS from every point, I still find the current situation wanting.

Now, if we had a view of the map with topographic height lines then as far as I am concerned, CM could do away with level 1 from a non occupied point.

The only merit I see for it's existence, is the need to evaluate the map for avenues of approach and etc. This is necessary since the level 6-9 views are practically useless for terrain evaluation.

In RL, a commander would have a topographic map, but would not be able to find the lovely nooks and crannies in the terrain that make for great hull down positions without actually stepping in the place.

Just my two cents.

Cheers

[melb_will]

Ok This has probably been said before but I've just finished a game so i'm going to say it again.

First a note,

In the past i bought BO and AK for my beloved old G3 IBook. Unfortunately due to uni demands that Ibook is gone replaced by a XP machine which I am only just coping with. Now as much as a i respect battlefront I am not about to cough up another 50+AUD to get a doze copy of AK so i'm stuck playing the demo's till a nice cheap version comes up on ebay.

Anyway Mortars. I was playing along nicely on Line of Defence (the italian one) i'd got my mortars into a nice postion where they had a nice los of the town. When all of a sudden an MG opened up on my advancing infantry. I could see the building (small) from which it was coming so I ordered my Vetran 60mm mortar to open fire on the building to pin down the MG.

The Bloody thing missed with 10 shots. 10 Shots now I can accept a couple to find range remember the team can see where the shots are landing. And maybe a couple from sudden wind bursts. BUT 10 IS JUST NOT ON. The mortar in CM is a waste of time compared to RL where they are a lot more accurate and are actually useful.

Rant ends here

Cheers

Will

Oh and a bloody follow road command, specially if we think that our tank crews can understand an S.O.P, Oh and green units in command can use cover arcs, sure they might give up on them if the enemy gets to close but I think a Lieutenant can say now you wet nosed puppies only shoot things between that tree and that house

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Yair Iny:

While I agree with the views expressed here about the unrealistic nature of being able to determine LOS from every point, I still find the current situation wanting.

Now, if we had a view of the map with topographic height lines then as far as I am concerned, CM could do away with level 1 from a non occupied point.

The only merit I see for it's existence, is the need to evaluate the map for avenues of approach and etc. This is necessary since the level 6-9 views are practically useless for terrain evaluation.

In RL, a commander would have a topographic map, but would not be able to find the lovely nooks and crannies in the terrain that make for great hull down positions without actually stepping in the place.

Yep, that's pretty reasonable too.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by melb_will:

Anyway Mortars. I was playing along nicely on Line of Defence (the italian one) i'd got my mortars into a nice postion where they had a nice los of the town. When all of a sudden an MG opened up on my advancing infantry. I could see the building (small) from which it was coming so I ordered my Vetran 60mm mortar to open fire on the building to pin down the MG.

The Bloody thing missed with 10 shots. 10 Shots now I can accept a couple to find range remember the team can see where the shots are landing. And maybe a couple from sudden wind bursts. BUT 10 IS JUST NOT ON. The mortar in CM is a waste of time compared to RL where they are a lot more accurate and are actually useful.

That's odd. I've had really good luck with mine, being actually able to drop rounds in a foxhole using a spotter. Maybe you just had a bad string of luck there.

I question how useful a 60mm would have been against a house anyway. I haven't used one that way in a long time, but best I remember they weren't too effective.

Michael

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by Yair Iny:

Now, if we had a view of the map with topographic height lines [...] to evaluate the map for avenues of approach and etc. This is necessary since the level 6-9 views are practically useless for terrain evaluation.

Make that printable too.

[melb_will]

Michael

Just ran a controled test. This time missed 3 from 5 then missed 3 from next 10. This is better but still In my opinon not good enough (based on what I have read, would love to hear from grogs) for a veteran (seeing that this is a reasonably high level of skill) in command.

The effect of a 60 on a light building was to pin the occupants a regular mg team and cause them to sustain 2 casualties. after approx 90 secs of mortar fire they panicked. This allowed my green infantry squad to run past in open ground without the MG team even getting LOS

Cheers

Will

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Yair Iny:

Now, if we had a view of the map with topographic height lines then as far as I am concerned, CM could do away with level 1 from a non occupied point.

I completely second that, having seen it at work in a mod for another game (I have posted an AAR here: http://freedom.d-a-s.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=142

It adds a lot of convenience to be able to read the terrain from above!

At the same time I assume it must be quite annoying to code contour lines in a aesthetically and technically convincing way ... the procedure I used is certainly not suitable for generating contour lines "on the fly".

Best regards,

Thomm

[hoolaman]

I am wondering whether Bullets or Larger Shells will be visible in the new game (assuming there are bullets not arrows or lobster claws!).

I would think that keeping with the philosophy of "more uncertainty" it would be better to only make bullets etc. visible if they really had tracers in them.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by melb_will:

Just ran a controled test. This time missed 3 from 5 then missed 3 from next 10. This is better but still In my opinon not good enough (based on what I have read, would love to hear from grogs) for a veteran (seeing that this is a reasonably high level of skill) in command.

I think you may be expecting too much. Seven hits out of ten rounds sounds good to me. Three misses out of five strikes me as slightly below average if those were the first five rounds fired at that target, but well within statistical variability.

The effect of a 60 on a light building was to pin the occupants a regular mg team and cause them to sustain 2 casualties. after approx 90 secs of mortar fire they panicked. This allowed my green infantry squad to run past in open ground without the MG team even getting LOS

Then it did what it was supposed to.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, an anywhere LOS tool was much requested when CMBO came out. The majority making the request were Steel Panthers players and boardgames, since both allowed this sort of thing. Like others have said, this is unrealistic. Although we do admit that there is a bit of problem in that if a unit ends its move just a hair out of LOS of its intended target that the position can't be adjusted until the next turn after going trough a command delay. In some cases this is perfectly reasonable counter balance to the player putting that unit into too smart a spot in the first place, but in some cases it is not realistic. We don't think there is a reasonable compromise to be had.

The computational requirements of a "show all LOS" is too big. Remember that when you are moving around the LOS tool the CPU is only saying "can I see from this one specific point to that specific point". Asking the game to show "all points from one point" is asking it to do thousands of times the work all at once. It would be horrible. I remember even in Steel Panthers the "show all LOS" took time on my computer of the day.

Steve

[yacinator]

I'd like to see a tool that lets you measure distance from one point to another.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by yacinator:

I'd like to see a tool that lets you measure distance from one point to another.

At present you can make a pretty good approximation by counting tiles. Of course if BFC does away with tiling...

Michael

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yacinator:

I'd like to see a tool that lets you measure distance from one point to another.

At present you can make a pretty good approximation by counting tiles. Of course if BFC does away with tiling...

Michael </font>

[kgsan]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The computational requirements of a "show all LOS" is too big. Remember that when you are moving around the LOS tool the CPU is only saying "can I see from this one specific point to that specific point". Asking the game to show "all points from one point" is asking it to do thousands of times the work all at once. It would be horrible. I remember even in Steel Panthers the "show all LOS" took time on my computer of the day.

Steve

My apologies if this has already been answered, I know CMx2 bones are kind of spread around the forum and I'm sure I haven't found them all, but Steve's comments put in mind a questions about how the new system wil handle spotting. With individual men being shown and tracked how is LOS being handled? Is each man individually tracked to determine if he sees and has LOS for a given target or is it based on a single point for the whole squad as (I think it is in CM)? Must each man fire at the same target (i.e. the squad 100 yards away in the woods), or will a squad now have the capacity to direct fire in more than one direction (i.e. 3 men continue to fire on the squad in the woods to try to keep their heads down, while the rest of the squad opens fire on the squad which just popped up on their flank)?

[jep]

I would like to see scriptable AI as poor (and soulless) artificial Intelligence prevents me playing anything but multiplayer games. Perhaps versatile C-like syntax with triggers.

There should also be an option to import AI modules.

It should be quite easy to create AI-script-language as every key elements already exist in game. AND it is fun to test whose AI figth best!