Light Mortars

[Folbec]

Originally posted by David Chapuis:

On a slightly different topic:

Does anybody know the caliber of the little knee mortars that the Japenese used? Any other armies in WWII use those?

see here :

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=010208;p=2#000038

BTW : the "knee" part was a legend. The recoil would break the leg as a few US / british soldiers found out.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

Why do other posts by 53r631 show edited by Sergei?

Don't worry, it is over now. Take a deep breath.

[flamingknives]

CM does rather castrate smoke effectiveness, which the 2" mortar was rather good at, and gives rather fewer mortar bombs than were typically carried.

On top of this, 2" mortars could be fired from within Bren carries (not in game) and were good for launching illumination rounds (also not in game)

Knee mortars (something of a misnomer, BTW) were 45mm, I think. The Italians had a 45mm mortar, but that came with a proper base plate. Closest is the CW 2".

[throwdjohn]

i have one question that vexes me daily. anywhere u see ww2 light mortars (ie 60mm-50mm, etc) they are being fired indirtectly. of course in cm we can't do that. why why why why why. yes i know with proper use of a spotter they can be used effectivley in open terrain, but what about in bocage etc.

[dalem]

Originally posted by throwdjohn:

i have one question that vexes me daily. anywhere u see ww2 light mortars (ie 60mm-50mm, etc) they are being fired indirtectly. of course in cm we can't do that. why why why why why. yes i know with proper use of a spotter they can be used effectivley in open terrain, but what about in bocage etc.

It's just one of those things we've had to learn to live with as a limitation.

-dale

[Other Means]

Originally posted by throwdjohn:

i have one question that vexes me daily. anywhere u see ww2 light mortars (ie 60mm-50mm, etc) they are being fired indirtectly. of course in cm we can't do that. why why why why why. yes i know with proper use of a spotter they can be used effectivley in open terrain, but what about in bocage etc.

We can we can we can we can we can. Just have a HQ in command of your mortar and the mortar can hit anywhere the HQ can see.

[Other Means]

Ahhh - you mean over a hill or something, firing blind?

Yeah that sucks. Hopefully the next iteration of the game.

[Michael Emrys]

Seems to me that the commander of the crew, especially if it's a medium or larger caliber, should be able to function as a spotter in the same way that an HQ is able to in the present game. With 1:1 representation coming up, I wonder if it would be possible to split him off from the rest of the crew and place him separately. Alternately, simply allow the placement of the mortar a certain maximum distance behind an obstacle such as a crest, a building, or a patch of woods. I don't know how difficult to program any of this would be to have it work in a reasonably realistic manner though.

Michael

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I can't say those little mortars with their low ammo loadout have been much use to me in the game.

They're great for giving you that 'little extra something' in a contact with enemy infantry. A round or two of 50mm on top of the regular small arms can make the difference between whether an enemy squads gets pinned or not, breaks or not. They're extremely useful.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Seems to me that the commander of the crew, especially if it's a medium or larger caliber, should be able to function as a spotter in the same way that an HQ is able to in the present game. With 1:1 representation coming up, I wonder if it would be possible to split him off from the rest of the crew and place him separately. Alternately, simply allow the placement of the mortar a certain maximum distance behind an obstacle such as a crest, a building, or a patch of woods.

In general I agree with you, but the problem with the bit bolded is that there is no counter to it. I can use my mortar to shell you, but you cannot see the spotter who is directing my fire, ignoring FOW for the moment. I think your proposal - the bolded one - breaks down on that basis.

But, mtrs should be able to spot for themselves - and only themselves - over short distances. Semi-indirect I guess is the best description. The same thing applies to ... well, any piece of ordnance really.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JonS:

...the problem...is no counter to it. I can use my mortar to shell you, but you cannot see the spotter who is directing my fire...

If the Hidden command were properly implemented in the already existing games, there would be no counter to them in the sense I think you are using it here. I've maintained for quite some time that there should be an intermediate status for the Hidden state such that a unit could be well concealed and still observe, rather than just be sucking mud.

The other thing is that I think that the "built-in" spotter for a mortar crew would have a much smaller effective radius (distance that he could be from the weapon) than HQs.

But all this may be rendered moot by reasons having to do with programming it all anyway. So I'm not selling it all that hard.

Michael

[Wartgamer]

For mortars without bipods, indirect fire 'corrections' are a bit of luck.

The US 60mm mortar should be thought of as a mini-81mm. The 'knee-mortar' variety should be thought of as super greande launchers.

The US 60mm used the same sight as the 81mm I believe. They also had the same fuse on the mortar bombs with fuse settings.

The US 60mm range set it apart as well.

[MikeyD]

Japanese knee mortar was 50mm.

I hear more than a couple G.I.s messed themselves up bad by taking the name too literally while playing with their new war trophy..

[Kingfish]

My personal preference is the US 60mm. Good range, portability and ammo load all in one package. I use them to bounce enemy MG and gun units out of trenches, and usually have enough left over for a second target.

For the larger mortars the CW 3" is hard to beat, although I make it a point to use them in a realistic fashion, therby cutting down on their flexibility.

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

For mortars without bipods, indirect fire 'corrections' are a bit of luck.

Skill, actually. A skilled operator was usualy very good at range estimation. One friend who served in Borneo during Konfrontasi told me of being attached to a British patrol and watching the 2in Mortarman put 10 rounds down range, during an attack on a village, with 9 arriving on target at the same time.

[Michael Dorosh]

Canadian Army Training Memorandum, July 1942

87. Men should be continually reminded that if mortars are sited in the open, casualties will be heavy and the mortars will be knocked out. Where possible the 2" mortars should be sited behind cover. Remind them also that every opportunity must be taken to change position, however slightly, after some firing has been carried out. They must remember that retaliation will come as soon as a position has been disclosed.

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:

For mortars without bipods, indirect fire 'corrections' are a bit of luck.

Skill, actually. A skilled operator was usualy very good at range estimation. One friend who served in Borneo during Konfrontasi told me of being attached to a British patrol and watching the 2in Mortarman put 10 rounds down range, during an attack on a village, with 9 arriving on target at the same time. </font>

[Mick15]

And for skill and luck with a 2" mortar luck at the Super-King encounter thread

[throwdjohn]

kingfish you write that you make an effort to use 3" mortars realistically, what do you mean by that?

[flamingknives]

I'd hazard that he means that he buys a Universal Carrier and keeps it nearby when using the Mortar. The 60-odd round ammo count is based on the mortar being transported (but not, in most cases, fired from) by a universal carrier.

[JasonC]

3 inchs are good, and a carrier to help them move not hard to arrange. You can typically get by with 1 carrier to several 3 inches.

I mostly use the 82mm Russian and 81mm German. They hit so much harder than smaller mortars, and they move fine in dead ground. I will sometimes take one halftrack to help the Germans reposition them, with Pz Gdr forces e.g. The 251/2 is another excellent option, whenever rariety isn't on or happens to be low for them.

The main problem with the Russian 82mm is that darn 7th man - really annoying. Because it means the unit is treated as a full squad for transport purposes, instead of a team.

That means they don't fit in a jeep, MG carrier, or M3 scout car. A jeep or two or an M3 or two are my usual repositioning equipment for on map guns and such, as the Russians. (The M5 halftrack is too thin to stop HMG fire, the MG carrier has a weak MG and not much ammo).

But it just means they walk. The Russians typically have slow speed in their overwatch groups anyway, from MMGs and phone FOs.

With the Germans, the 81mm won't ride a tank (transport class 3) but HMGs can. To get mobile speed, you just need one 251/1 per 2 mortars, while the HMGs and HQs ride tanks. In a larger fight you can buy 1 platoon of armored Pz Gdrs for their SPWs, and use them to carry company heavy weapons, while the infantry fights dismounted.

A typical German heavy weapons group can have as little as HQ, 2 HMGs, 1 81mm mortar - and still do everything you need a heavy weapons group to do. It helps immensely that the weapons are actually powerful, powerful enough to do things at range, etc. A US group with just 30 cals and a 60 can't do squat - you need to double the weapons, or include a reduced platoon of infantry as well - and then you want range 200-300m, rather than 400-500m. The resulting large group also winds up needing more cover, making a better arty target, etc. Medium speed is not an adequate compensation.

[wunwinglow]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

and the guys says "Don't you wish you could do that?"

and the other guys says "Won't he bite me?"

or something like that.

I thought the reply was 'Give him a piece of your cake and he might let you, Vicar...'

Tim P

[Wartgamer]

A typical German heavy weapons group can have as little as HQ, 2 HMGs, 1 81mm mortar - and still do everything you need a heavy weapons group to do. It helps immensely that the weapons are actually powerful, powerful enough to do things at range, etc. A US group with just 30 cals and a 60 can't do squat - you need to double the weapons, or include a reduced platoon of infantry as well - and then you want range 200-300m, rather than 400-500m. The resulting large group also winds up needing more cover, making a better arty target, etc. Medium speed is not an adequate compensation.

The German weapons you mention are Battalion support weapons. The US weapons are company support weapons. If you used US 81mm and 1917 watercooled HMG, then you would be comparing appples to apples.

[flamingknives]

Some German TsO&E have the MG42 in SF role and 81mm mortars at the company level, so in certain situations, especially in CM, they could be said to be company support weapons.

[throwdjohn]

ca n a 3 inch mortar not be carried by a bren carrier? if so wouldn't this be preferable? i mean bren carriers are crap true, but those 50 odd bursts they carry can be useful for defending itself.