Light Mortars

[Sergei]

At the beginning of WW2 all the major players had some sort of light mortars, 40-60mm, at platoon level. Later in the war Soviets and Germans got rid of them, and nowadays they're rare. Why?

[Wartgamer]

The US 60mm mortar was a company level weapon grouped in a weapons platoon typically in a leg unit. It had much greater range/indirect fire capability. Most of these weapons are more like grenade throwers.

The Germans did reissue 50mm mortars in Normandy. They and rifle grenades were often mentioned as being very useful in attacking in the bocage.

[MikeyD]

My guess is they simply didn't 'get the job done'. A proper 81mm+ mortar is exponentially more lethal and effective than those mini-mortars. Except for harrassing anti-tank gun emplacements, I can't say those little mortars with their low ammo loadout have been much use to me in the game.

[cassh]

We've come full circle. Light mortars AFAIA were designed to replace WW1 rifle grenades as a means of projecting HE and Smoke bombs/grenades.

The advent of the modern grenade launcher provides greater accuracy and reliability, and unifies the weapon system (e.g. M16/M203) rather than having to carry an additional light mortar. Less kit more FP!

[dalem]

The American troops in Afganistan love their 60mm mortars and wouldn't trade them for anything.

-dale

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by dalem:

The American troops in Afganistan love their 60mm mortars and wouldn't trade them for anything.

-dale

Are modern mortars much different from their WWII counterparts? From what I have seen on the FAS website the modern mortar is generally much lighter and more accurate as well as having a range comparable to a WWII 81mm.

The Russian 50mm mortar had a range of only a few hundred yards and lacked sufficient firepower to make an impression on the battlefield. According to Zaloga, the Red Army phased them out when they realized they were simply not worth the expense.

Cheers

Paul

[Andreas]

Probably different munitions too.

50mm mortars are not very useful in deep(ish) snow, and presumably heavy mud conditions. Which was the norm in the east for what? 3/4s of the year on average, variations ranging from year-round in the swampy parts to 6 months in the south?

[Michael Dorosh]

What do you mean by rare? Every infantry section in Canada has two 40mm grenade launchers, and each platoon has a 60mm mortar.

In WW II we had one 51mm mortar per platoon and that was it...

[Wartgamer]

Modern 60mm mortars use proximity/multisetting fuses and are much deadlier than WWII varietys.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

What do you mean by rare? Every infantry section in Canada has two 40mm grenade launchers, and each platoon has a 60mm mortar.

Anything used by the Canadian army is rare by definition.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

What do you mean by rare? Every infantry section in Canada has two 40mm grenade launchers, and each platoon has a 60mm mortar.

Anything used by the Canadian army is rare by definition. </font>

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Sergei:

At the beginning of WW2 all the major players had some sort of light mortars, 40-60mm, at platoon level. Later in the war Soviets and Germans got rid of them, and nowadays they're rare. Why?

The reason the Germans dropped their 5cm mortar during the war was the development and arrival of the rifle grenade (rifle grenades as fired from rifles, not the specially mounted types of WWI). The rifle grenade could do anything that the 5cm mortar could (roughly 400m maximum range, detonated and spread light shrapnel about 20-30m all directions). The light mortar as squad support weapon had thus become obsolete.

The rifle grenade then remained in service until relieved by grenade launcher systems of barrel mounted types. M203 lookalikes.

Although of weaker range and hitting power, the new rifle mounted launchers are better adapted to mobile warfare with zero time to deploy, a much higher rate of fire and far greater accuracy within the short range provided. Given the mechanised warfare doctrine, infantry no longer need long or medium range weapons, but short range and high firepower instead.

In short then, the need to lob grenades further than a mans arm can hurl it still remains, and has remained since the mass use of handgrenades in WWI. It has merely taken forms adapted to battlefield conditions, technology and doctrine.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[flamingknives]

The British Army still retains a light mortar in the form of the 51mm mortar. (which is surprisingly close to 2", no?)

AIUI, this is being replaced by H&K 40mm grenade launchers.

[cassh]

The reasoning behind the 60mm Mtr popularity in Afghanistan, like the popularity of mortars in all mountainous conflict zones and wars has a lot to do with the trajectory of the bomb and variable flight times.

High trajectory weapons such as mortars allow you to engage targets that other weapon systems cannot reach due to terrain features (sodding great hills, mountains, ridges, saddles etc)

Don't know if 60mm comes with variable charge levels - but one reason 81mm are S-Hot - can fire your own time-on-target mission by varying elevation/charge level so the bombs land in the target area together.

[jacobs_ladder2]

From The Red Army Handbook by Zaloga:

Mortar Production:

50mm:

1937-----------0

1938-----------0

1939--------1720

1940-------23105

1941-------28056

1942------104403

1943-------17584

1944-----------0

1945-----------0

Compared to the 82mm

1937--------1587

1938--------1188

1939--------1678

1940--------6700

1941-------18026

1942------100181

1943-------35032

1944--------2889

1945--------1000

The 50mm was phased out starting in December 1942. It had been eliminated from the Red Army two years later. Essentially, the weapon was believed to be the big help the Russian infantry needed (after the poor showing against Finland), but turned out to have marginal impact on the battlefield. The 120mm mortar at regimental level begins to enter the Red Army in significant numbers in 1941 and is mass produced through 1942 and 43. This appears to indicate a clear shift in thought away from platoon based mortars and towards heavier weapons at battalion and regimental levels.

Cheers

Paul

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

My unit alone has more M203 grenade launchers and 60mm mortar tubes than the entire brigade has hen's teeth and rocking horse **** combined.

I believe that, true to its traditions of unimaginable superlativeness, the Finnish army has more rocking horse **** than the rest of the world's armies combined.

Michael

[Wartgamer]

The US 60mm will hopefully benefit from the modeling of realistic communications in cmx2. The US use of the scr536 allowed these mortars to fire like a battery.

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/60mm.html

Interesting 60mm info

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/index.html

[ March 30, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[junk2drive]

Why do other posts by 53r631 show edited by Sergei?

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2:

From The Red Army Handbook by Zaloga:

Mortar Production:

50mm:

1937-----------0

1938-----------0

1939--------1720

1940-------23105

1941-------28056

1942------104403

1943-------17584

1944-----------0

1945-----------0

Compared to the 82mm

1937--------1587

1938--------1188

1939--------1678

1940--------6700

1941-------18026

1942------100181

1943-------35032

1944--------2889

1945--------1000

The 50mm was phased out starting in December 1942. It had been eliminated from the Red Army two years later. Essentially, the weapon was believed to be the big help the Russian infantry needed (after the poor showing against Finland), but turned out to have marginal impact on the battlefield. The 120mm mortar at regimental level begins to enter the Red Army in significant numbers in 1941 and is mass produced through 1942 and 43. This appears to indicate a clear shift in thought away from platoon based mortars and towards heavier weapons at battalion and regimental levels.

Cheers

Paul

The Soviets appeared to have made many more mortars than they needed. They may have stopped/cut-down production to concentrate on ammo production. It would be more telling to see that 50mm mortar ammo was stopped at some time during the war.

German medium-heavy mortar production showed a rapid increase during 42-43-44. Likewise, ammunition also increased.

The Germans did cease production of 50mm mortars and ammunition in 1943. I would imagine that the Soviets also ceased ammunition during the same period. The Germans did use the weapon on the western front in 1944. I would imagine the Soviets would issue it to second line units also.

The Germans produced a variety of 120mm HE rounds as well as typical 81mm HE and a heavy 81mm HE round similar to the US model. Mortars definetly moved towards more range or bigger bangs.

[Michael Emrys]

Why do other posts by 53r631 show edited by Sergei?

Because he can. Just like the dog.

Michael

[junk2drive]

and the guys says "Don't you wish you could do that?"

and the other guys says "Won't he bite me?"

or something like that.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

Why do other posts by 53r631 show edited by Sergei?

Because he's l337.

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The Soviets appeared to have made many more mortars than they needed. They may have stopped/cut-down production to concentrate on ammo production. It would be more telling to see that 50mm mortar ammo was stopped at some time during the war.

That would be damning evidence indeed. However, I think the point Zaloga raises about the disappearance of the weapon from Russian TO&Es is sufficient evidence.

I am sure the weapon still popped up from time to time in 1944 and even into 1945 (more than likely in partisan hands) but in general the RKKA turned its collective back on light mortars starting in 1942. Phasing out a weapon at platoon level would then take some time, but two years sounds about right.

Also, why stop in 1943 when the war was still in full swing? If the 50mm were an important part of their arsenal then wouldn't they have at least waited until they were fighting on foreign soil to heave a sigh of relief and shut down production?

Anyway. Just a few thoughts.

Cheers

Paul

[Wartgamer]

But the CW knew better! 50mm was the shiznit.

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Except for harrassing anti-tank gun emplacements, I can't say those little mortars with their low ammo loadout have been much use to me in the game.

I think the 50 mm mortars are great weapons in the game. I used them to pin crack troops just the other day.

However, if you were referring to the CW version, I must agree. With only 10HE and 10 smoke rounds they really are almost worthless.

On a slightly different topic:

Does anybody know the caliber of the little knee mortars that the Japenese used? Any other armies in WWII use those?