Scoring a draw & Hetzer questions.

[TheBlackHand]

I just finished a 25-turn battle in which I pretty much ran my opponent off the field . . . and yet, this was scored as a draw.

I am thoroughly confused as to how this could be the case.

Here's the final tally:

I did lose a large number of vehicles and an equal number of KIA . . . however, I was the attacker and it was a tough fight.

Tough or not, the ending has left me in complete control of the battlefield. I was able to take both flags and even moved a platoon of engineers to completely envelop one of the hills, taking out a bunker in the process. I had a large number of vehicles (including tanks) remaining and many, many troops. He had about a platoon of infantry left . . . and they were holed up in a trench. One more turn and I'm certain they too, would have surrendered.

Here's a picture of the battlefield:

For the life of me, I cannot see how this is a draw. I was expecting a Total Victory, since I am in complete control of the battlefield.

If this were a ladder game, I'd be pissed!

Also, I've played two battles now in which the German Hetzer has taken frontal hit after hit from 75 & 76mm Shermans from ranges as short as 200 yards . . . and survived . . . and killed my Sherman. In one instance the Hetzer was hull-down, for the most part. So, I'll give that one the benefit of the doubt. However it was extremely frustrating to see him back away . . . take one more shot from my Sherman (not hull down) and hide behind a building (to continue killing my advancing HT's). The other instance was a straight on shoot-out. My Sherman was hull-down, his Hetzer was skylined . . . and it still came out on top.

Luck of the draw (no pun intended) or is there something else going on?

[Guest BigAlMoho]

It's all in the points:

Total points = 7695

Axis points = 3613

Axis percentage = 3613 / 7695 = 46.95256%

Allied points = 900 + 2754 + 428 = 4082

Allied percentage = 4082 / 7695 = 53.04743%

It cost you too much to take that ground...

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

The Hetzer is known for it’s very strong front armor. However, this comes at a price, as it’s weak flanks and tail make it an easy kill. If you know you’re throwing down with one, then do your best to avoid a head to head fight. Try flanking these little beasts whenever you can. Close range infantry assaults are also very effective as well.

[John Kettler]

TheBlackHand,

Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? That's basically what happened to you. He/she bled you white. You were about even on kills, but he/she wounded 25% more of your men and destroyed a company (plus) worth of vehicles. From your screenshots, it's impossible to tell what you lost or its quality, but both can have a big impact on the score. High cost x high morale rating = big points if lost.

Hetzers can be extremely tough targets frontally, especially if defending on an upslope. Somebody did a very good analysis of this matter, but I can't find it just now.

Regards,

John Kettler

[slysniper]

You need to take into account on a battle plan the value of the objectives. You had flags worth 900 points. The question is not weather you win this battle, with what appears to be about 3 to 1 odds, most anyone will win fighting with the Allied side. The question is how cleanly. Leading troops into a blood bath when they should have won without taking so many losses would affect you the same way in real life as the game system did in its score.

The first goal of any battle is, to kill more of them than you, having the numbers and using good tactics, this goal is not hard to obtain.

Outnumbered defender will use terrian to try and equalize the battlefield to give them a chance to win agaist unfavorable odds. Many Classic examples where the attacker is going to loose many more men than the defender because of the terrian the defender has chosen.

when planing attacks in the game look at it this way, the map shows two large flags on that major hill (value 600 points). Can I take them flags without loosing that much equipment and personnel more than the enemy. If its going to cost me 4 tanks and 100 men and all he looses is 3 AT guns and a few mg's then I need to plan my attack on how to kill the enemy without them type of causulties and if I adcheive that. The flag's will likely still be captured. paying 1000 points in losses compared to 200 points in enemy losses to capture 600 points of terrian is not good math.

Learn to value what the game objectives are worth compared to game losses.

[ September 20, 2007, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[Baron Ritzner Von Jung]

The map and the number of units seem a bit huge for a 25 turns battle . You should give yourself a bit more time otherwise it is a race against the clock .

[TheBlackHand]

Hmm, good info.

Most of my vehicle losses were HT's, but I did lose a few tanks. Two to the Hetzer and a few more because I stupidly moved into the path of his bunker'ed 75mm guns.

I think I lost most of my infantry because I didn't use enough smoke . . . and, when I did use my artillery I FORGOT TO LIFT IT. Therefore, I attacked under my own 155's while taking fire from one, dug-in squad, which effectively wiped out a platoon!

Stupid, stupid, stupid!

I was also the victim of blue-on-blue from one of my fighter-bombers. Killed a HT and routed a squad or two.

As usual, haste makes waste. I do think I tried a bit too hard to take the hills. Rushing units forward that really didn't need to be there. That did result in the loss of a few vehicles and men. Vehicles and men that I could've kept in reserve.

I also could've made a better assault from the flanks, rather than going hey-diddle-diddle, right up the middle . . . but I figured a flanking attack on this small map would be sorta gamey. I try to avoid using the edges, for the most part.

This battle also left me wondering why flamethrowers are included in assaults (or, how to use them that way). I had plenty, but NONE ever got close enough to make a difference. They're just too slow and draw too much fire.

The only time I've had luck with flamers is on defense/ambush.

About the Hetzer, I must've misread the armor thickness. I thought it read 60mm up front, which seemed paltry, and led me to wonder how they were so unshakeable.

[TheBlackHand]

The map and the number of units seem a bit huge for a 25 turns battle . You should give yourself a bit more time otherwise it is a race against the clock .

This was one of those "random reinforcement" battles. We both agreed that it should've had about five more turns.

Also, I received a large reinforcement early on, whereas he received three tanks and a platoon of infantry rather late. This put him at a disadvantage . . . and perhaps, caused me to be a bit lax. The last five turns were a big rush on my part, because of the timer. I took some needless losses because of that. The old "flag rush" which is totally ridiculous, in "realistic" terms.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

The 60mm thickness is correct, but it is highly sloped (neighborhood of 60 degrees) plus the rounded gun mantlet, as well.

[Broompatrol]

Someone did some tests suggesting that the horiztonal axis of the Hetzers hull slope was modelled (rather than the vertical sides like a Tiger or Sherman turret), as well. Which means that in a hull down position incoming rounds are basically skipping off an almost flat surface, like stones on a pond. Whether that is true or not I don't know. But, I do know that hull down Hetzers are very hard to kill frontally with 75mm guns.

JasonC created some training scenarios for using inf. Very helpful if you're not already groggy.

Finally, 25 turns is a little short giving giving an edge to the defender.

[Broompatrol]

BTW, shelling your own guys...I think thats called a "Boo-boo" in military circles.

[JasonC]

Slope is critical for armor fights. The Hetzer's 60mm of plate is angled 60 degrees. Just geometrically, this means a round would have to bore through 120mm of armor to get through the 60mm thickness, coming in at that extreme an angle. Because it is basically moving "lengthwise", "along" the armor, rather than perpendicularly through it.

All the weapons in the game have detailed armor penetration values. Select the unit and hit space to see them. For each ammo type (AP or HE for example) and for every range window, you will see 3 different numbers - one for 0 degrees slope or "flat", another for 30 degrees, and the last for 60 degrees. You will see right away that the 60 degree lines are much much lower - meaning, weapons can penetrate far less thickness of armor at a greater slope.

Up in the armor chart of a vehicle, it lists both thickness and slope for each plate or aspect - upper front hull or lower side etc. The slope number is just as important as the thickness one. That gives the "instrinsic" slope of the armor, typically the degrees from vertical. But in combat the real figure for a given shot can be higher. Side angle is the main cause (if you hit the hull with a shot that comes in from off the center-line of the target e.g.).

Internally, the exact angle is used. The chart numbers are there to guide you, but every intermediate value matters. So the target might have 30 degree slope listed but the side angle may boost it to more like 45, and the amount of armor the shot can penetrate will then be between the 30 degree value (for the range) and the 60 degree value.

The Hetzer glacis is pretty much immune to US short 75mm. Even higher velocity rounds can deflect easily - you have to think of it as having 120mm of effective front armor, which is more than a Tiger I has. The Jagdpanzer is another well sloped TD with similar protection.

The best answer to this well sloped front TDs is to hit them from the side, where their gun isn't pointing and their armor is usually quite thin. Even with high side angle, you can usually get through, because the base is only about 20mm (30mm for the Jagds). That is the way to kill a turretless TD anyway - hit it where it can't hit back.

As for how to do that when it is over on the enemy side of the field, distraction tactics and teamwork sometimes do the trick. Meaning, when the Hetzer turns its whole hull to point at Sherman number 1, Sherman number 2 hunts out of cover into LOS from the other side of its field of view. The front can't point both directions at once. If the spread between your tanks is large enough, there won't be any safe orientation for the Hetzer.

Of course, every tactic has a counter. For the Hetzers and Jagds, their counter to teamwork is "keyholing" - picking a spot that can't see most of the field, but only a narrow "pencil" at a chosen target. They achieve this by peeking out from between buildings or around a block of woods or hill. But that has its own cost - the Hetzer can't stop tanks from advancing elsewhere if it can only see that narrow pencil. Also, a couple of smoke rounds can blind its "fire lane".

Another way of countering a thick front AFV is to get a big enough hammer that you don't care how thick he is. A Sherman Firefly with its 17 pdr won't care that the glacis is sloped, it overmatches it so much. The 90mm on the US Jackson TD will also to the trick.

Yet another is to deal with the TD "assymmetrically", meaning use a weapon from another class altogether, instead of trying to tackle AFVs with AFVs. Sneak a zook to a side shot e.g. Or let a fly-boy hit him (the Hetzer is not proof against even a 50 cal from the sides).

Any gun has a solid chance of catching one from a flank just be remaining unseen - the enemy usually won't know where to avoid showing flanks to. Either he stays stock still or deep in friendly areas, or some hidden gun will get a shot. You can prep this by just having 2 guns at widely separated locations with LOS to enemy areas. He might come out facing one but can't face both, doesn't know they are there, etc. Stealth can give a flank in other words.

Turretless TDs can also be countered by "making them turn", with a fast vehicle. If you are a long way away or moving straight at the thing, it only needs to pivot a small amount to track a target. But if a vehicle is close, moving fast, and nearly perpendicular to the line to the Hetzer, it has to rotate a long way to track. This both takes time - letting you get closer etc - and shifts the area his strong front armor protects against fire from. A greyhound can do this, or even just an M-20 armored car (since its 50 cal is enough if it gets close).

What you don't do against thick front AFVs is stand toe to toe with them. CM is about combined arms, meaning getting the best paper scissors rock counter to whatever the enemy "shows". Sending armor at a Hetzer frontally is handing perfection in that quest to the enemy on a silver platter.

Incidentally, the Hetzer has some other weaknesses. It has a slow rate of fire because the interior is so cramped. The HE ammo load is quite small, and the MG is a low ammo close defense only thing. So a Hetzer's ability to hurt infantry is quite limited, and after about 5 minutes of fire, it doesn't have any. It is a specialized armor killer.

As for your score, already explained, you just lost too many vehicles. You might think the weaker ones are completely expendable because they aren't a major part of your in game combat power or something, but that is not the way it works. Even pure transport vehicles have prices and kill value, typically as much as a full squad of men for a single truck - and twice that for a halftrack. You can't afford to throw them away.

[ September 20, 2007, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[TheBlackHand]

Whew, ask and ye shall receive!

Posts noted, cut and pasted. Hopefully I'll do better next time around.

Incidentally, I was able to neutralize the Hetzer in Bastongette Day 2 by flanking him with a HT and a squad of engineers. This caused him to retreat, at which time my Sherman got a good hit on his gun. I didn't realize I had damaged his gun until . . . I saw that he wasn't firing it anymore. The HT attack didn't kill the Hetzer, but it did distract him long enough for the other half of the "combined arms" to get a shot.

I was hoping that he would turn to face the track, but he wisely kept his front to my Sherman. Nevertheless, the flanking move still worked in my favor.

Till then, the Sherm's shells were, indeed, "skipping" off of the Hetzer.

Now, about those two Panthers and Jagdpanthers that are making their way across the battlefield . . . well, I give up!

[Other Means]

Any slope the AFV is on will add to the slope of the frontal armour, with some quite surprising results. I've had a Churchill XI bounce a Tiger from 150m because he was on a steep hill.

He killed it next shot - my mate was stunned. So was I actually, I never expected *anything* to bounce an 88/L56 from there.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Any slope the AFV is on will add to the slope of the frontal armour, with some quite surprising results. I've had a Churchill XI bounce a Tiger from 150m because he was on a steep hill.

He killed it next shot - my mate was stunned. So was I actually, I never expected *anything* to bounce an 88/L56 from there.

A heavy Churchill should bounce PzGr 39 on the nose from an 88/56 at most ranges and angles. It's what it was designed to do.

All the best,

John.

[jBrereton]

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=002179#000000 - this is the topic you're looking for.

[Joachim]

Another note - you don't hold 2 flags. It is a dynamic flag scenario. You hold one flag worth all the points and a clearly depicted bogus flag worth nil. If it was a scen, the attacker can select a flag he wants to attack and the defender doesn't know which one, so he has to guess. If the map was played as QB, the engine selects a flag but still only the attacker knows which one.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Other Means:

Any slope the AFV is on will add to the slope of the frontal armour, with some quite surprising results. I've had a Churchill XI bounce a Tiger from 150m because he was on a steep hill.

He killed it next shot - my mate was stunned. So was I actually, I never expected *anything* to bounce an 88/L56 from there.

A heavy Churchill should bounce PzGr 39 on the nose from an 88/56 at most ranges and angles. It's what it was designed to do.

All the best,

John. </font>

[RockinHarry]

Joachim mentioned already above...

You noticed you played with dynamic flags actually? Appears you as attacker wasted many units for a target worth nothing! (a "bogus")

Concentrating on the 900 point value flag would have been way to go and just start a small diversionary cautious attack on the bogus one to draw some defending (mobile) forces away from the main goal.

That´s the good and the bad thing about dynamic flags, but usually the defender is at a (realistic) disadvantage.

[TheBlackHand]

Doh!

I figured there was something fishy about that flag. The big, neon BOGUS was a clue . . . but I've never played a scenario with a fake flag and there was nothing in the brief about it.

Another case of live and learn.