bbaker Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Steve, If you wouldn't mind looking at how indirect area fire (for instance a mortar out of LOS being directed by a CO) works around captured friendly units, I'd appreciate it. I think there is most likely a fairly serious bug. Currently, you can't issue such orders if a captured friendly unit is within 20M of the area you're targeting whether or not you know the captured friendly is there. To test this, I set up a test scenario. A group of Russian "bait" starts surrounded by Germans and the survivors quickly surrender. A distance away, a Russian HQ is watching all this from a group of trees. Several Russian mortars are behind the woods within the command radius of the Russian HQ, with no LOS to the Germans. The German platoon quickly captures the hapless Russian bait. A captured Russian can then be moved into a pine forest until he is out of sight of any Russian forces. The captured unit is then moved laterally through the woods until it is a hundred meters away from the last place its comrades last saw it. It can then be snuck (sneaked?) to within 20M of the edge of the forest, still unseen, where there sits a German infantry squad. So long as the german infantry has the captured friendly within 20M, it cannot be targeted by the Russian mortars, even though the Russians have no idea there is a captured friendly nearby. This bug allows captured units to be used as invisible "Star Wars" shields - you could capture, for instance, the lone survivor of an MG and advance it with your troops, providing an impervious shield from HE area targeting. Worse, the game allows an area fire order within 20M of the captured friendly to "stick" so it appears when you issue the order that it will be carried out. I understand why there was a limitation on area targeting of HE near captured friendlies was imposed (to prevent their "assassination", I suppose), but it can lead to a funky situations, especially since you can issue area fire orders with HE right on top of uncaptured friendlies. If, for instance, you order some mortars to suppress a foxhole you're advancing troops towards, they will continue firing even when the advancing troops are well within 20M, practically until they're in the foxhole itself. The potential for abuse by players intentionally using this exploit is certainly present, but I've also seen this crop up also with players who are simply moving a captured unit along with the forces who captured it because there isn't a rear position it can be sent to. FWIW I'm using ver 1.01 Thanks, I realize that there's a lot on your plate, but I'd appreciate it if you could spare a moment or two to check this out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 I second this bug/feature. It was also a problem with CMBO and still is with CMBB. I don't have a huge problem with no area firing when the spotted captured unit is within 10 metres (say) but when you have no idea where the captured friendly is, that is patently ridiculous. I'm sure the reason for not allowing area fire against a spot with captured friendlies is that we'd all be doing it if possible to deny the higher victory points our opponent receives from captured troops rather than killed ones. Whether this problem can be fixed if the opposing side can't spot his captured troops anymore is another matter since the internal workings of the game clearly knows the captured troops are there. Perhaps a partial solution would be to simply not allow the area fire line to "stick" when aimed at an area where captured troops are located (whether spotted or not). Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbaker Posted March 13, 2003 Author Share Posted March 13, 2003 Alternately, could captured units be simply rendered immune to "friendly fire"? Unrealistic perhaps, but it might be an easy kludge to fix the gameplay..? (spoken like I have the slightest idea how their engine works ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 What's wrong with just executing them? Those things happened in the East. They die like flies in the middle of an assault anyways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 "just executing them" would be to the advantage of the side whose units where captured at the moment. Captured units give twice the points (I believe, more anyway) of killed ones, so it would be a usufull tactic to shoot your own troops once captured by the enemy. I second the question for a solution though. In a recent battle I had the same problems. I had two lanes of approache covered by both MG's and mortars. But once the MG's where captured (and heavy MG's get captured pretty fast, as the last man is immobile) the mortars stopped firing to, so the enemy could walk unhinderd to the flag. A solution would be to to give the points for "captured" anyway, if the units are "killed while captured". (though the game would have to keep track of this I guess, instead of calculating the scoreat the end). Bertram 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klapton Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 A solution might be to give the double points if: -. The captured unit remains alive at the end of the scenario. -. The captured unit is killed by friendly fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 This is quite serious and I would hope that all players just move the prisoners back to the base line. If I found a player doing otherwise then I would not play them again. Also, in tourney play this if suspected should be frowned on from the higest mountain. Perhaps the AI could just do this automatically for the player. I.e. Move them towards the rear in a direct line. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 It's a shame the game doesn't require prisoners to be escorted. The image of some POW's ducking into a ditch and grabbing a rifle from a dead body before taking potshots at the foe is a good one. I've not run into the bug myself but I second the sentiment that in the face of an actual patched solution, the only honourable thing to do if you capture enemy troops is to immediately send them to the rear to avoid taking inadvertent advantage of this apparant bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Originally posted by Quintus: It's a shame the game doesn't require prisoners to be escorted. The image of some POW's ducking into a ditch and grabbing a rifle from a dead body before taking potshots at the foe is a good one. The game does require prisoners to be escorted. Next time you capture some, try leaving them completely alone (i.e., out of LOS of any potential guards) and see what happens. It may take a few turns, but eventually they will 'escape ' and revert to the original players' control. As far as this bug, if the choice comes down to one or the other, I would rather live with prisoners being able to be 'executed' by friendly fire than I would the current targeting bug. I don't like either, but the targeting bug seems potentially much more open to abuse to me. If my opponent wastes a bunch of HE trying to kill a couple of prisoners, it may be a bit gamey, but it's not such a big deal to me - prisoner points are nice, but I also like watching my opponents use HE in ways that do not diminish my fighting strength. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 The game does require prisoners to be escorted. I stand corrected Teach me to not read the .pdf manual more often... Hmmm, boss out of office... laser printer unattended... binding machine to hand... Giving in... to ... temptation... -whirr- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Originally posted by Bertram: "just executing them" would be to the advantage of the side whose units where captured at the moment. Captured units give twice the points (I believe, more anyway) of killed ones, so it would be a usufull tactic to shoot your own troops once captured by the enemy. Well if the enemy has enough firepower and ammunition to hunt down captured individual squads, you are pretty screwed anyways. If you ask me, not being able to fire near them is just as gamey as purposely killing them. Because both issues revolve around POINTS. And since when has combat mission been about POINTS. This game is about tactics and realism. I am quite surprised that in this case tactics have been sacrificed for the sake of POINTS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Has anyone tested this to see if the prisoner cancels a fire mission already in progress (either in countdown or actually firing)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbaker Posted March 13, 2003 Author Share Posted March 13, 2003 I'm not sure if the movement of prisoners will cancel a fire order already in place, but I beleive the opposite is true - if you issue a fire order that isn't being carried out because of the proximity of a captured friendly, and halfway through the turn the captured friendly moves to a point more than 20M distant from the area fire target, firing will begin. Unfortunately, I think my employers would frown on me running a test during working hours. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Smallwood Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Yes, captured units can "escape" if you don't watch them, but they've been stripped of their weapons, so how much butt are they going to kick anyhow? Anyway- if I may offer an obvious solution: Captured units cease to be under *anyones* control- they just immediatlely start walking towards the enemy's back edge of map and disappear into the off-map pow camp, points counted as they should. I mean, what do they add to the game anyhow? The problem under discussion hasn't affected me one whit, but I can see the concern, and it wouldn't bother me personally if pow behaviour were automated. I'm sure it will be in the next patch. Eden 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 I mean, what do they add to the game anyhow? They can be recaptured. This primarily makes a difference in Operations, IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Originally posted by Eden Smallwood: Yes, captured units can "escape" if you don't watch them, but they've been stripped of their weapons, so how much butt are they going to kick anyhow? Well remember they're all part of the borg collective here, so if they escape and revert control to the original player I suppose they would immediately start relaying the location of any enemy positions they can see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Originally posted by Eden Smallwood: Anyway- if I may offer an obvious solution: Captured units cease to be under *anyones* control- they just immediatlely start walking towards the enemy's back edge of map and disappear into the off-map pow camp, points counted as they should. I'd like to retain some measure of control over my prisoners, so as to at least plot a safe exit route. If left to AI control they will make a beeline for the mapedge, regardless of who or what is in the way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 This is the first time I have seen this issue mentioned (in CMBO or CMBB) so if someone has a test file that shows this, send it to me and I will have a look. Thanks! Madmatt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbaker Posted March 13, 2003 Author Share Posted March 13, 2003 Sent! And I sure as heck hope it doesn't make me look like a doofus! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 I was actually playing BB last night, & I noticed a 75mm HT refused to fire on units that my troops had gotten very close to. I didn't think to check the actual distance, but they were well within Flamethrower range, I'd guess around 20m. This behavior with Direct Fire is known & considered correct. Correct? strt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Cool new gamey feature....use captured units as shields 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbaker Posted March 17, 2003 Author Share Posted March 17, 2003 Any chance this will make the 1.03/1.02a patch? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securityguard Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I have a question: Its been awhile, but weren't captured units suspectible to friendly fire in CMBO? I swore that some of my units would get captured, and after my rifle infantry would fire in their direction they would die. Im guessing theyre not open to ballistic fire in CMBB either, as I've tried many times to waste them using area fire with machine guns... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Well... this will help keep my guns alive. I just need to run over, catch some troopers and move them back next to my 88's. Yippee! This one looks problematic if true. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Captured units are still susceptible to direct fire when it is targeted at enemy units and the captured unit just happens to be nearby and cops some of the firepower. What you can't do however is area target nearby a captured unit no matter which type of unit is trying to area fire. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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