Those stupid arty observers

[Bertram]

I am getting to hate my arty observers. Though it might be much more realistic then in CMBO, arty, and the scattering of the impact point is getting rather annoying.

In a current battle my 150 mm arty observer finaly had a FFE, after a long wait. Unfortynatly a tank of my dropped some smoke in his los. Result: the arty landed 100 mtrs of, in my own lines. As it was 150 mm, it killed about 20 men, panicked a couple of squads, blew up a armored car of two, and stopped my attack. As the first shells landed at the start of the turn, I lost half of my arty support as well.

Now it might be much more realistic then in CMBO, where you could send arty to a spot observed by someone else, with just a penalty of a bit delay, but I really would love to have the option to cancel the fire mission as my observer can not see the spotting round. Maybe an option to "fire blind", with the risk of a random error, and the normal fire mission, which wont go FFe unless the observer sees a spotting round on target?

I really hate it that I have to check all my arty spotters each turn if they might have lost loss due to smoke, to prevent them froim shelling my own troops, or just wasting that arty. And somehow it does not seem realistic to me either if a close firemission is called for that that observer calls in the FFE as he has not seen the spotting round.

Bertram

[MikeyD]

It seems I've only benefitted from it! I can't recall the last time the enemy actually dropped artillery ON my forces.

I guess they purposefully toned down the artillery from CMBO, but I wouldn't mind having my troops suffer from a rain of shells once in awhile!

[ February 03, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[tar]

Result: the arty landed 100 mtrs of, in my own lines.

Anyone else think that calling for artillery within 100m of friendly lines is a bit close (especially for 150mm guns?). It should be dangerous!! Now, I might see this for something like 81/82mm mortar or smaller, but 100m doesn't leave much room for error.

I do agree that some of the LOS issues are a bit too fragile. Considering that artillery is an area weapon, losing LOS to a particular point through one stray smoke cloud seems a bit harsh. (If a full smoke screen were present that would be a different matter).

[Olle Petersson]

So if the FFE hit just 100m off target, how far off were the spotting rounds?

Cheers

Olle

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Bertram:

Now it might be much more realistic then in CMBO, where you could send arty to a spot observed by someone else, with just a penalty of a bit delay, but I really would love to have the option to cancel the fire mission as my observer can not see the spotting round. Maybe an option to "fire blind", with the risk of a random error, and the normal fire mission, which wont go FFe unless the observer sees a spotting round on target?

I really hate it that I have to check all my arty spotters each turn if they might have lost loss due to smoke, to prevent them froim shelling my own troops, or just wasting that arty. And somehow it does not seem realistic to me either if a close firemission is called for that that observer calls in the FFE as he has not seen the spotting round.

Honestly, I don't think that CMBB's artillery model is more realistic than CMBO's model. The FOs in CMBB don't do the job that their supposed to do after the spotting rounds fall: i.e. correct for the main barrage. For example, if your spotting rounds fall 5 seconds into the playback of your turn, then 30 seconds later the main barrage will start falling with no corrections. In real life the FO would have corrected the coordinates BEFORE the main barrage or called the barrage off entirely.

It shouldn't be left up to the player to correct for the FO. After all, does the player correct the gunner of a tank? No, the tank makes it's own corrections(bracketing) so that it's second shot has a better chance of hitting the target. The same should be for the Forward Observers.

[MasterGoodale]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

It seems I've only benefitted from it! I can't recall the last time the enemy actually dropped artillery ON my forces.

I guess they purposefully toned down the artillery from CMBO, but I wouldn't mind having my troops suffer from a rain of shells once in awhile!

Send me a setup maggot face, I'll make your dreams come true. :mad:

[demoss]

For example, if your spotting rounds fall 5 seconds into the playback of your turn, then 30 seconds later the main barrage will start falling with no corrections.

That's just not how it works. I've seen two spotting rounds come down, both off by about 250 m (in DIFFERENT directions), then an on-target FFE. The correction is done. I think sometimes the FO just screws up. I've only had major screwups with 120 mm Soviet mortars directed by a green observer, myself.

[CombinedArms]

Well, I've seen repeated misses with directly observed fire by veteran German 105mm FOs--persistent retargeting never corrected a consistent error of 300m too long. My impression based on sketchy BFC comments is that this may actually be a bug--i.e. its not intentional that observed fire is sometimes wildly off and not correctable. I hope they're working on it for the next patch. I can send files if BFC wants them.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by demoss:

That's just not how it works. I've seen two spotting rounds come down, both off by about 250 m (in DIFFERENT directions), then an on-target FFE. The correction is done. I think sometimes the FO just screws up. I've only had major screwups with 120 mm Soviet mortars directed by a green observer, myself. [/QB]

Well, maybe you're right, there is some sort of correction but I've seen plenty of regular and even some Veteran FOs lay down some unaccurate artillery. And this is even after I manually corrected by retargeting my intended area, which the manual states is correct way to correct artillery. This leads me to believe that there is no correction automatically done by the FO. Why would the FO call down a FFE if he knows it's off target? He should halt the FFE and adjust again. The current system just doesn't make much sense.

In my mind a typical request for artillery goes like this:

1. FO calls for artillery and gives coordinates

2. Spotting Rounds fall

3. If spotting rounds are off target then step 3b, otherwise go to step 4

3b. correct the original spotting rounds and wait for next spotting round. If it is also off then repeat step 3b.

4. Fire For Effect

This method may take a bit longer because of multiple corrections to the spotting rounds but otherwise you're just wasting rounds. I'd rather my rounds land on target than off - I'm willing to sacrifice time for accuracy.

[Bartokomus]

Originally posted by Pak40:

well said.

[Becket]

Well, I just can't agree that arty has problems. In one of my current PBEMs, both my opponent and I have landed arty on each other in spectacular and effective ways.

It's quite satisfying to see a troublesome ATG go poof under a hail of mortar.

It's somewhat less satisfying to see your advance stall under a hail of same.

I guess it's a question of what you want -- IMO if arty was more effective, it would rule the battlefield, and that's something I don't want to see.

[CombinedArms]

I agree that arty is usually effective, BUT there does seem to be a rare bug where it just won't hit anywhere near the target despite direct observation and several attempts at correction.

[SFJaykey]

I agree with Combined Arms. Up till now I have had reasonable success with off-map artillery, and in my current (first) PBEM my opponent has used it against me with good effect....unless he has been missing too but "missed lucky." But, here are the results I have obtained with my own 81mm mortars, 6 tubes, Regular FO in the same game:

1st target (smoke), in LOS. Result: on target.

Next target (HE), in LOS. result: 400m short (!)

Adjust Fire, in unbroken LOS. Result: 250m short, fell right in front of my own tanks, buttoning them. This is _Adjusted Fire_, with good, uninterrupted LOS.

Adjust Fire again, toward enemy rear, still in unbroken LOS. Result: 300m short, almost same spot as previous.

New target, also in LOS...maybe something is weird with that side of the map. Result: 250m short, shelling my own MGs.

To emphasize: in every case my FO was in OK status (he has not been fired on yet) and as best I could tell had uninterrupted LOS to target. (There's no way to check LOS _during_ the turn, only during orders phase, right?) And these are battalion level mortars. In all but one case the FFE came down in the same turn as the spotting round, giving me no chance to correct or cancel. What could I be doing wrong? Should I send files to someone to look at?

(PS to Panzer76: I'm going to beat your red dogs anyway!)

MattT

[Boo Radley]

I've not experienced problems with accuracy. The only thing that bothers me is the extra long time you have to wait when employing large arty (Large Arty, a rather huge, hairy backed individual who enjoys wearing wide pinstriped suits and hitting things.)

I tried to do a search for the reasoning behind why it takes such a longer time for larger artillery, but couldn't come up with anything definite.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

I agree that arty is usually effective, BUT there does seem to be a rare bug where it just won't hit anywhere near the target despite direct observation and several attempts at correction.

Yes, In a recent game I used a Veteran FO call down artillery and it came down right on target. Later in the game I repositioned the FO to target another area but the spotting rounds came down way off target. I then reset the target but they still came down way off. I reset again and they still were off although a little bit closer. I finally got fed up and just let the artillery run its coarse.

I'm stumped as to why the Veteran FO was able to call down artillery on target the first time but couldn't get it right the second, third or fourth times.

I've seen this sort of thing happen more than once, although it's not common.

[-E]

Originally posted by MasterGoodale:

Send me a setup maggot face, I'll make your dreams come true. :mad:

BTS, what is he doing out of his thread? Please fix or do... etc.