CMBB scenario packs: here (no more)

[Firefly]

Perhaps scenario designers and modders need to take a similar approach to that used by the MS Flightsim/Train Sim mod community and include a legal disclaimer in the readme file. These normally sya something along the lines of whether the work can be redistributed or not. This can be as simple as 'This mod/scenario is for your personal use only, and may not be sold or distributed in any way without the author's permission' plus contact details.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Firefly:

Perhaps scenario designers and modders need to take a similar approach to that used by the MS Flightsim/Train Sim mod community and include a legal disclaimer in the readme file. These normally sya something along the lines of whether the work can be redistributed or not. This can be as simple as 'This mod/scenario is for your personal use only, and may not be sold or distributed in any way without the author's permission' plus contact details.

Does anyone honestly believe El Cid went through and read every readme file or scenario briefing? This was a mass grab of other people's work - and without the benefit of having tested them personally before passing judgement on them.

Originally posted by cbb: If, on the other hand, there is a mechanism whereby I can download "packs" of scenarios organized in such a way that I can easily identify what I am interested in, then the chances of me playing your scenario are greatly increased.

And how exactly does this pack help you do that? The titles are the same, and in fact you know less about this scenario than you would if you were looking at its page at the depot.

Perhaps if you had no choice but to go to the depot, you would be forced to support it a little more?

In any event, I have to stand with Franko and wwb - my scenarios are prefixed with GD, in the main, and you can find the other ones by accessing the "other battles by this author" list at the Depot. I would appreciate their removal.

ichadwick - We've gone round this topic before, and you've stated it all very succinctly, in fact I agree with everything you've said. As for "hot and bothered", I hope Franko, wwb or myself don't come across that way. I'm pretty generous with stuff I put on the net - you'll find bits of my GD website scattered across other sites, for example, and I enjoy helping out others. I routinely come across website who have taken images from my sites without permission - and I always send them an email saying "hey, I have no problem with you using this, but please give me a credit." I have yet to not get a civil reply, and in the end, we both always win; the other guy has always agreed to give me credit, offered an apology, and usually offered to remove the material. I've always let them keep the stuff up. Like you say, it's not something to get all bent out of shape over. But I was serious about using the Depot download stats as a way of feedback, and I honestly believe these mass downloads defeat the entire purpose of even having a Depot.

As for the people who are incapable of using the Depot (and by so doing, help out we designers, and by so doing help themselves by ensuring we learn from our mistakes and provide the public what they want) - well, that is their problem I guess. In the end I suppose if you are too lazy to look at the Depot for two minutes to find a good scenario that interests you, you will be too lazy to take ten minutes to write a scenario review that will be of any worth to anyone anyway.

So yes, I would still like my stuff removed from the mass distribution.

El Cid - how about instead of just putting up a massive download - why not compile your own list on your site, with links for each one to the download page AT THE DEPOT? Yeah, that would be a lot of work too, but would be a much better compromise. You could organize the list(s) any way you see fit, the stuff would still get taken from the depot when it is downloaded, and your purpose of identifying which scenarios are best for different types of games (ie solo, 2 player, rated high etc.) will be met (though the Depot does a good job of doing this on its own, too).

Sorry for all the work this has done, but it really was an ill-advised move.

[ January 05, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[El Cid_Cagi]

Well, I think that I have made clear that I didn't wanted to offend anyone (and everyone at least agrees on this)

Some points have arisen in this discussion. After all, maybe this was not an empty effort:

1. Scenario designers should add a description line when finishing their scenarios, so every gamer out there can identify what kind of scenario they are looking to play from the Scenario Selection screen. In fact, should this be an universally accepted rule, I'd never done the scenario packs (my intention was more to separate solo from 2P oriented scenarios; the importance of ratings was to make reasonably sized files and a reasonable number of scenarios

2. I should have asked every scenario author before...well, in my experience when preparing documents, files, etc for other games, 75% of the time scenario designers, FAQ-makers and such simply don't reply to messages, or the referred e-mail address is too old, or wrong or who knows what

(a thing mostly difficult to understand to me, since I do answer all enquiries and the more strange questions about the games I have my page dedicated)

I had contacted Boots&Tracks about the so-called "Stalingrad Chrono pack", for example. An e-mail was sent to Kevin and CC to CapitalistDogInChina (a former and fond playmate ). Terry gently answered me for a salute, but Kevin did not say nothing (the Chrono pack are simply the scenarios renamed to be playable in the described chronological order. The readme includes all the debited credit, the website link and an invitation to visit the great B&T site...) But no answer yet (almost a month has passed)

So the second conclusion is that people should answer inquiries from others, or this tends to create the impression that none answers nothing...

A similar history about some of the rare broken links in the depot (broken because the referred website is no more): none of the e-mails was answered. On the other side, Wayne Rutledge gently replied in a pair of hours about a scenario not yet linked from the Depot

Collecting all the scenarios, reading all the descriptions and available reviews to identify 2-player suitable games (although not designed for that purpose), or the contrary, to identify not-so-PBEM-suitable scenarios requires already a lot of time

Sending hundreds of e-mails and waiting for their response would make the whole thing and adventure. Furthermore, asking if it's possible to make available to gamers a scenario that is already available to gamers, but in a more comfortable way (from the gamer's point of view)

And here comes the third:

3. As pointed above, every scenario designer should add in the future a readme with a disclaimer: "I don't want my scenarios hosted elsewhere", like the FS mods and scenery files

4. I'm glad my EU2 section helped you, WBB . And I'm thankful that in the end you accepted to have your scenarios included in the packs. And surely many gamers will be thankful so

But having them in a mood like "for this time, you can, but don't do it ever more" is not the way I like to have things available at my page

5. I'd though that gamers making scenarios, playing aids, help maps, FAQs and everything that adds more enjoyment to others to their favorite games are doing it for pure love for these games and the gaming hobby, and they would prefer to have their work the more widespread, the better (given that the most elemental credits are preserved, of course)

Unfortunately, the world is not as beatiful as I'd though, and the wargaming community from time to time has still that smell of purism and elitism

I don't want to keep removing, zipping a new file and uploading it every time that over the next weeks another scenario designer comes and claim their right to have their scenarios removed from the packs, so I have just removed all of them.

After all, I started the whole work to my own enjoyment, I have all the scenarios I want in my hard disk, and that's what I'll be playing

So the ill-advised move is finished. Over and out.

Edit: updated my signature

[ January 05, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ]

[aka_tom_w]

Well I guess that did it

There are no more scenario packs or download links available.

I think this whole situation is very unfortunate and regretable :confused:

-tom w

[ January 05, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Spook]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

El Cid - how about instead of just putting up a massive download - why not compile your own list on your site, with links for each one to the download page AT THE DEPOT? Yeah, that would be a lot of work too, but would be a much better compromise. You could organize the list(s) any way you see fit, the stuff would still get taken from the depot when it is downloaded, and your purpose of identifying which scenarios are best for different types of games (ie solo, 2 player, rated high etc.) will be met (though the Depot does a good job of doing this on its own, too).

Sorry for all the work this has done, but it really was an ill-advised move.

My own thinking was on these same lines too, while reviewing the thread, right up to Michael's last post.

El Cid, I commend your demonstrated spirit in wanting to provide an added service to the CM gaming community. (I also overviewed your EU2 section out of curiosity, as I last played that game many months ago; great stuff you've provided there!!) But I concur with Michael's argued principles as to keeping his scenarios (of those of all others) "resident" at the Scenario Depot. For whatever inconveniences may exist with this site's design and layout, it is still a primary source for hosting review feedback that scenario submitters can refer to.

Instead of "mirroring" these scenarios and alloting file space at your site for hosting these, it remains the "Solomonic solution" to maintain your link to the Scenario Depot, while mentioning within your CM section which CMBB scenarios are among the better rated. Perhaps links to sites like "Der Kessel" or CMHQ could be added. Not to mention guiding people to sites with CMBB mods.

A good addition to your CM section would be scenario reviews done by you or others submitting to you. These text reviews would take up less cyberspace, but help "get the word out" as where to go and what to download when there.

Tell you what. This weekend, I hold myself due to submit four or five reviews on CMBB scenarios played earlier (these are all part of the original CMBB scenario set, however) to the Scenario Depot. If you'd like, I can also later e-mail these review comments to you for hosting at your CM section.

[ January 05, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Spook ]

[GJK]

What I would love to see is a simple spreadsheet that lists all the scenarios currently available and has a column for "authors recommended play as" (solo, 2p, etc) and the author's notes and all the other information that the Depot provides for each scenario. A lot of work, I know. And why have this if the Depot already does? Quick to sort, I can add my own comments that I may later use when rating a scenario, I can note which I have played and the outcome and whatever else. I could also note which scenarios I have, which I don't, which made for a great solo game with what settings, what was the best 2p scenario, etc, etc, etc.

Of course updates would need to be made to add new scenarios that are uploaded, maybe a twice a month update or something.

Just a thought.

[El Cid_Cagi]

Originally posted by Spook:

A good addition to your CM section would be scenario reviews done by you or others submitting to you. These text reviews would take up less cyberspace, but help "get the word out" as where to go and what to download when there.

Thanks for the suggestion and the offer for the scenario reviews, but I don't see the difference between puting a link to my favorite scenarios (as Michael suggested) or doing reviews of my preferred ones, since it would be an "arbitrary linking" that will not give any "download feedback" to the scenarios not mentioned

Furthermore, at this very time I have no mood or intention of doing any more work in my CM section, other than keeping and mantaining the so-called CM Big Oracle, thanks to the helpful and friendly support from Markshot (maybe until someone comes and says that he don't wants to have their forum messages hosted elsewhere or that the content of these forums are copyrighted and such, a thing that most surely is a matter of time)

Personally, as said before, having had my EU2 Beginner's Guide in four languages and downloaded from my page at least twenty thousand of times, being hosted in (at least AFAIK) 5 or 6 more sites, I just cannot understand the positions shown by some scenario designers here: I do all my gaming aid work just for pure love to the hobby, the fact of having the "feedback" of the download counter is irrelevant. But that's only my position.

[Spook]

Originally posted by El Cid_Cagi:

Personally, as said before, having had my EU2 Beginner's Guide in four languages and downloaded from my page at least twenty thousand of times, being hosted in (at least AFAIK) 5 or 6 more sites, I just cannot understand the positions shown by some scenario designers here: I do all my gaming aid work just for pure love to the hobby, the fact of having the "feedback" of the download counter is irrelevant. But that's only my position.

I think Michael has conveyed his motives well enough as that I need not add much further, so therein stands both yours and his positions. I will note that I believe that Michael's central motive for getting review feedback isn't so much just to see the sum download count build up, than to read direct feedback, good or bad. If the review is critical, there MIGHT be potential lessons he can apply to future scenario editing. If complimentary, then he sees appreciation for his given hours of prior scenario design work.

I just finished a CMBB scenario design yesterday. I thought at first that it would be a two-day affair, instead it took nearly a week to revise and to test out.

Again, though, I do appreciate the spirit and initiative that you attempted in your efforts for the CMBB gamer community. And I'm glad to hear that your EU2 support work has been well received in sum. Just over a year ago, I first tried CivIII as a "world" strategy game, but then trying EUII afterwards, I never returned to the former game.

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

Cagi,

I truly appreciate what you did, and I downloaded all your packs.

The truth is, I can't be bothered downloading scenarios from the Depot. I only use B&T and Der Kessel. The design of the Depot is much too cumbersome. Also, there are several designers at the Depot who whinge and complain when someone posts a review that is not to their liking. Some even write rebuttals and post them as reviews. There are designers who slam the reviewing system when someone posts a negative review.

So, when Cid takes the time to read through the scenario descriptions and divides scenarios into four groups, that's great work. Really, that's how the Depot should be designed (or it should be possible to search for those variables). Four big groups: Single-player, PBEM, fast TCP/IP and long TCP/IP.

I think any scenario designer should be proud to have his work offered up more places than one.

[rune]

I have made paks of my scenarios for CMBO and distributed them. I never had anyone post them without asking me first. I do NOT have to post I don't want them distributed, you should assume the author does not unless you ask. This is common courtesy and sense.

I have all my newer CMBB scenarios on two rune paks. They will be distributed when a couple scenarios are used in the tourneys they are in. Once done, I will post them all over, and El-Cid, will send to you if you want when we get to that point.

I am also working with Bruno on a series of battles, and starting with an operation. I will ask Bruno where he would like them distributed.

No one contacted me.

Rune

[ichadwick]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

(snip)As for "hot and bothered", I hope Franko, wwb or myself don't come across that way.

Not particularly - just expecting the flames to burst open on the forum.

...you'll find bits of my GD website scattered across other sites... I routinely come across website who have taken images from my sites without permission...

Yes, common problem. I have found entire sections of my site lifted - design, images and text - some even translated into another language - without my permission. I might have given it and worked with the translator had he or she asked first.

I found myself in hot water recently when I was scolded for using an unattributed image of an agave plant on my site, apparently taken from a book without the author's permission. It had been sent to me as one of several images supposedly taken by the sender. All I could do was apologize.

Anyway, I like the idea of what El Cid did, just think it needs a little more refinement in the process end of things.

Ian

[El Cid_Cagi]

Originally posted by rune:

I have all my newer CMBB scenarios on two rune paks. They will be distributed when a couple scenarios are used in the tourneys they are in. Once done, I will post them all over, and El-Cid, will send to you if you want when we get to that point.

Thanks for your offer, Rune, I really have enjoyed your "runepaks", but there will be no more scenario packs on my own

Contacting all scenario designers will make the scenario packs themselves outdated when finished, and as I have said I have already all the scenarios I want in my hard disk, separated in different folders

I though it was a good idea to share that with other gamers, but I was wrong. End of the history.

[Hortlund]

Amazing... simply amazing...

[_Axe_]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

Amazing... simply amazing...

Kind of puts your signature into perspective, huh?

[Hortlund]

heh...yeah, Homer is a real smart guy sometimes.

[Franko]

For the record, I probably would have been supportive (with some suggestions) of the idea had I heard about it before it was released.

Thats all.

F

[WWB]

What Franko said. I did not realize you had attempted to contact B&T and it fell on deaf ears. If you need something from us in the future dont hesitate to contact me or Scott Boston (our Team Leader who is the one you should talk to anyhow). I would read my dont ever do that comment as never include things in such a pack without my express consent.

When the first big version of CMMOS (a mod switching program) came out, the modders got together and tracked down the chain of authors for everything involved. That was alot harder than tracking down individual scenario authors.

WWB

[Nick Hyle]

And yet another case where someone tries to DO something - and does - and is dragged down by those who complain about HOW he should have done it instead.

Of course I don't notice anyone stepping forward to volunteer to do all the work they're asking El Cid to do. Or has someone offered to compile a list of scenarios, sort them, then contact all authors (and wait, and recontact, and recontact) and then actually put them together as either downloads or a set of links, and then host them?

Perhaps I missed someone's kind offer.

Searching through the Scenario Depot, I do not see ANY note limiting the free re-distribution of the scenarios listed there. Not even the useful, organized re-distribution of them. (I am more than willing to add that such a statement may exist - but I don't see it.) Perhaps the scenario authors' beef is with their distributor.

Do Mike Dorosh, et al, have the right to complain about how the intellectual sweat of their hard labors is distributed? Sure they do.

But I fail to see any arguments above about how forcing El Cid to emasculate or remove his packs was a service to the CM community. I saw comments about how it might benefit the Scenario Depot, or Boots & Tracks, etc, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I just don't see any arguments that show me where this is a good thing beyond the individual rights and egos involved.

Let me make clear again - those individual rights are real, and worthy of respect. But the only reasons I see are the selfish (or small groupish), not communal.

Which makes me say thanks again, El Cid - I really appreciate the work. Too bad some people felt they had to spoil the party.

Nick Hyle

[thewood]

You can put this in the "Thanks for the effort, now here is your kick in the arse" column.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Nick Hyle:

Let me make clear again - those individual rights are real, and worthy of respect. But the only reasons I see are the selfish (or small groupish), not communal.

That is almost funny Nick. Sure, it is pure selfishness that makes me, Wyatt, and others spend time to create scenarios, and build up websites for you to come to and download them. It is entirely selfish of us to expect that as a matter of courtesy, you should bother to download the scenario from the page that we have created around it.

Well, now that you say it, I do of course realise the error of my ways, and to make up for it, please let me deliver my next scenario on a silver plate to you, and congratulate you in person on being such an unselfish human being.

[Manx]

What would be the point of anyone starting a CM site if someone else is going to come along at a later date and "duplicate" all the content from that site and then making it available elsewhere?

The community has regulated itself very well so far on the simple rule that it is only common decency to ask permission from website owners and scenario/mod designers before repackaging or relocating their work.

So, you've got to put up with downloading one scenario at a time. So what!

[Andreas]

Regarding El Cid - I think you had a very good idea. I do not know whether any of my scenarios made it into your packs, so I do not know whether there was an issue or not as far as I am personally concerned. If you just used scenarios from the Depot, probably not.

Anyway, good effort, and if you had asked me, I may have given you permission to use my scenarios for such a pack. I have not thought about it though, and I would want to discuss this with others at Der Kessel.

Contrary to what Nick says, we have been here before though (although I don't think many people remember), when Admiral Keth opened the Depot I think. Then there was a question about hosting all scenarios on the Depot, and it was resolved by Adm. Keth asking all the designers, IIRC. At Der Kessel, we decided that because of the way we present our scenarios at Der Kessel, we did not feel comfortable with the hosting, but a link to our main page would be a good idea. As a consequence, we probably have fewer downloads than we otherwise would have. But at least we know that those who download the scenarios learn a bit more about the group, and what we do. That is selfish, but then again, we have yet to charge for scenarios, or ask anyone for money to run the site, so I think a bit of quid pro quo is alright on this basis.

I would finally like to assert that I see my scenarios as my intellectual property, and that of those who helped me create them. The fact that they are free to DL, that I have no possibility to prevent others from changing them, or to use a map and do their own scenario on that, does not change that at all.

The release of a scenario to the CM community to play it for free does not make it the property of any member of the CM community to do with it as he or she wishes. I do not really see what is so difficult to understand about that.

[Franko]

Okay, I've been largely lurking here and I have a comment and suggestion:

My comment is that I think everyone's hearts in the right place, but we have to simply agree on a common protocol for protection and/distribution: this problem is as old as the internet.

So here's my suggestion: I would prefer that anyone who seeks to post, compile, otherwise amend or modify any of my scenarios simply ask me. This is not that complicated: If you are going to go through the work to compile a pack, how difficult is it to zip off a few lines of email asking me? I'd most likely say "yeah, whatever" -- I mean, I just want to avoid being part of a "Scenarios That Suck" pack.

Also, I dont want them mischaracterized or modified in any way: of course, what you do at home with them is your own business. The reason for this is simple: If some wag adds a bunch of Tigers to one of my 1941 scenarios, and then POSTS it for distribution, I'm going to get twenty emails from people critizing me for, well, putting Tigers in a 1941 scenario -- I have a one-year old, for goddsake, I dont have time to respond to crap like that!

The problem with ratings systems being "attached", so to speak, with my scenarios, is that the rating systems are often conceptually flawed (I've had scenarios rated poorly in certain categories despite the fact those categories didnt apply to that scenario in question!).

And by the way, anyone who wants a Frankopack can simply ask.

Out.

Frank

[El Cid_Cagi]

Originally posted by Andreas:

The release of a scenario to the CM community to play it for free does not make it the property of any member of the CM community to do with it as he or she wishes. I do not really see what is so difficult to understand about that.

Andreas "Germanboy" Biermann, I suppose .

Yes, the issue of the scenario packs did affect you, there were many of the scenarios from Der Kessel, since they are some of the favorites of the community, as seen in the Depot ratings. "Bure", "TF Butler", etc., to name a few. "To The Last Man" is one of the highest rated for more people in the Depot; TF Butler was one of the highest rated at CMHQ, at the time I did the old "PBEM Packs" 2 years ago...(that, btw, was also announced in this forum and did not bring such "flame war"; maybe everyone was younger )

I did go to your site, read the descriptions, the reviews in the Depot, and signaled several of them with the "insulting" $ in the filename (the most outrageous modification I did to any scenario)

And yes, I can understand the reasons given by many of you, scenario designers, but I'm very far from sharing that same point of view. You should see it from the gamer's point of view, which, after all, is the intended target of all your works, unless you keep your scenarios in your own hard disk

If I had done any modification, editing of the briefings or the scenarios themselves,or as Franko says, adding some Tigers in a 1941 scenario, etc., in a word, altered your works, I should be battered to death

But the fact of "relocating" or made it easier for the average gamer to get classified scenarios, maybe it hurts the hearts of the artists, but from the point of view of the players, it helps them to play the scenario they want to play

Furthermore, the fact of having your scenarios downloaded one-by-one from the Depot, B&T or Der Kessel does not prevent at all the risk that someone, somewhere, could maliciously modify them. It don't gives the maker any control at all about the final destiny of their works

And then the issue of the "player feedback" and such...Well, you should be conscious that users don't give feedback as a general rule, apart from some exceptions. I cannot but disagree with Michael on that point.

In my experience, even so I'd given my e-email address, links to discussion threads, etc hoping to have some interesting opinions...I've seen some documents dowloaded thousands of times while receiving only ten, maybe twelve suggestions

(as an example, WWB...he kindly mentioned how he gone through my EU2 aids, but until now, I had only evidence from scarcely 20 people that they have found useful any of my EU2 guides -the so-called "positive feedback"-. Now, they are scarcely 21 people )

Since I've done quite an extensive work of gaming aids, playing guides, and such, and I run my own website (for which I have to pay, as said above), I'm very respectful of your position, guys, but I would find myself ridiculous if I had to complain because someone has placed one of these playing aids in his own website (wheter he asked me before or not), as long as they keep my name into it and not modify anything

Should another site delete my name (denying my authorship) from a guide or erasing my portrait in a 1419 worldmap (even so I'm rather ugly), I would kill him ( :cool: especially if erasing my portrait)

But since I've done such things with the intention that other gamers could read them, the fact that they read it directly from my page or from other site is completely irrelevant to me: the more people that find it useful, the better, with or without my permission, as long as they keep the documents as they were conceived

I have not modified, denied authorship (the briefings and accompanying readme -if any- were preserved) nor degraded anything. Furthermore, I came here (to the scenario designer's den) and innocently announced the scenario packs, a feasible proof of my goodwill

And then this unpleasant issue of the you should have asked before arose...

I'm very sorry since I did it with all my respect to the dedicated work of admired scenario designers, and this has triggered a mostly disgusting situation

We are talking of different positions and attitudes, and most surely we will not agree ever

The fact of the "you should have asked before" seems very important to some of you, while I find it quite irrelevant for my own works and, above all, for the gamers, which are the final objective of scenarios, gaming aids and such extra work done for free for so many people. And I don't think that we could agree on this

Anyway, I'm sorry that we have come to this discussion since my last intention was to make angry anyone of the scenario designers out there

[ January 06, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by El Cid_Cagi:

And then the issue of the "player feedback" and such...Well, you should be conscious that users don't give feedback as a general rule, apart from some exceptions. I cannot but disagree with Michael on that point.

Well then you have no idea what you are talking about. Given that 700+ people can download a scenario and only three will be bothered to review it at the Depot - the download stats present the only other hard suggestion of popularity. Your packs effectively kill that type of feedback.

My suggestion to you is to find something you are good at, that requires independent thought and a scrap of talent, and go for it. Packaging up the work of others is just riding on other people's coattails. It certainly didn't require any talent, just time. And don't try and kid us into believing your vaunted "dollar sign" is some sort of service to the community, it's simply your way of putting your personal imprint on this "service."

Try designing a map or a scenario or two, or try your hands at a uniform mod. Or somefink. And leave well enough alone. And do forgive the rest of us for having some pride of authorship. Speaking for myself, I designed the scenario for others, and I submitted it to the Depot so I could see if anyone else would be interested in it. I certainly didn't do it, as Franko says, so some third party could wrap it up in a "These Scenarios Suck" package. I'm actually quite flattered that one or two of mine were selected to go with some of the truly great CMBB scenarios made to date. The others I have no idea of because I haven't played them, and that's the problem. Why come along and recommend scenarios to others based on what you read about them at the Depot? What the hell kind of nerve is that, anyway? For all you know, or all I know, 50 percent of those reviews are done under pseudonyms. I can tell by going to the Depot which names I recognize and whose reviewing style I recognize. You simply did a massive data dump - big deal.

If someone comes over uninvited and paints my car purple, with a beautifully detailed mural on the side of how Hitler came to power, and does a world class job on the finish - sorry, but I am not about to congratulate him on the "hard work" he's done, more like I'm going to tell him to get rid of that ****, and maybe ask me permission first.

And I should hope no one felt sorry for him afterwards when he was made to undo the damage he caused.

You say you emailed people, but did it occur to you to post here in the forum beforehand? You certainly trumpeted the creation of these packs after the fact in a hurry.