shredder Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I would love to be able to download groups of scenarios at a time, much like Runes. It's too bad someone comes along to make things more convenient only to get shot down for his efforts. What the hell difference does it make to the scenario creators where the scenario gets downloaded from as long as it gets downloaded and played? Isn't that why it is created and put online in the first place - so others can play it? Too many uptight egomaniacs around here for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murpes Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by xerxes: Design is art. It's art by virtually any definition. And yes, it is protected by copyright law. Whether you like this or not is totally irrelevant but you do come off sounding rather ignorant.eh, I don't know about this ... not the "art" definition (I'm not touching that one), but the whole copyright deal. Granted, INAL, but I was always under the impression that copyright involved some sort of governmental process. I very well could be mistaken. Regardless, copyright or none, I don't think a scenario designer necessarily is in a position to dictate how or when it is distributed. Perhaps if we were talking about creating and releasing a map and parameters outside of the cme format then maybe. But as soon as you put your ideas into a cme file really the only ones who can say anything about its terms of use is Battlefront. I mean, if you design a scenario and say "only distribute this from whatever.com" aren't you really dictating what can be done with someone else's work? The structure and format of a cme is Battlefront's property - their creation just as valid as the map contained within it. One could even argue that such programming is "art." At best, the scenario designer has control over the intellectual property of the maps, but from my perspective they're forfeited the minute they are distributed in a cme file. The texture mods are a different story, since they're in bmp format. BFC didn't "invent" the bmp. Now for all I know, BFC may have a terms of use policy regarding cme files that dictates that the designer can put stipulations on them. I'm sure there's something otherwise how could they prevent people from selling them? What's really at stake here is whether, and I like the terms, a community standard or a courtesy has been violated. Obviously we're (and I mean "we" = the forum) in disagreement about this, but we'll sort it out. My individual opinion is that nothing wrong was done here, but I certainly can see everyone's point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Overall, the logic is very simple. But once you get into the details it is very, very tricky. I am not aware of any readily accessable, GPL (read free) technology that will let one compile ZIP archives on the fly on a web server. Nor do I know of a cheap hosting company that will give you enough file access to do so. If you know of such technologies, please drop me a line. Or, if you are the master of PHP & MySQL you purport to be, why dont you just design a nice, GPL module that Kieth can use and everyone will be happy. If we can get past the question on my mind (Why should anyone help such a rude bunch of people? :confused: ) then multiple downloads can be looked at. The first thing to remember is these files (scenarios) are SMALL. For most connections to the internet they can actually be downloaded at the same time (say 5 for dialup, 20 for cable/DSL). No need to make into one file. I don't see why this should be such an insurmountable problem! Really it's just a "shopping basket" of files. I'm sure you could find some code for that on the web.... [ January 07, 2003, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: UberFunBunny ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by shredder: I would love to be able to download groups of scenarios at a time, much like Runes. It's too bad someone comes along to make things more convenient only to get shot down for his efforts. What the hell difference does it make to the scenario creators where the scenario gets downloaded from as long as it gets downloaded and played? Isn't that why it is created and put online in the first place - so others can play it? Too many uptight egomaniacs around here for me.What part of 'he did not ASK' is so freakin' hard to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The ENTIRE point behind the way it is designed is so that you HAVE to download each scenario seperately, If that is the ENTIRE point, then you are beyond help.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I am in NO way against scenarios or mods ... I use quite a few myself, but just want to raise the following points as some food for thought.............. CMBB comes with a mission editor to allow players to produce their own scenarios. However ......... Does the CM software license specifically grant permission to distribute scenarios created with the mission editor or modify the game textures or sounds .... It may well do but how many scenario or mod designers contacted BFC or checked the software license BEFORE releasing scenarios or modifying original BFC files ? How many scenario readme files contain credits to the original work by BFC ? Are designers (scenario/mod) allowed to claim some sort of intellectual or moral copyright over and above that already claimed by BFC ? The ability to produce extra missions and graphic mods is one that keeps the game and this forum alive and thankfully BFC dont complain everytime somebody modifies some part of their game. A game that comes with all the copyright laws and restrictions that a commercial product is covered by. I can fully understand (and support) the scenario (and mod) authors wishing to be contacted before their work is re-distributed, copied or altered but just wonder how many actually followed the rules themselves !!! I think El_Cid's actions were done for the befefit of the community.....and not to claim any personal credit or glory ..... that will always go to the original authors ! Lou2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Michael Dorosh: The ENTIRE point behind the way it is designed is so that you HAVE to download each scenario seperately, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If that is the ENTIRE point, then you are beyond help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That IS the entire point (duh) and I would suggest you are the one beyond help, since the reasoning for this has been stated several times over. If that is the case, please answer my 5 questions in a previous post. TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murpes Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 What part of 'he did not ASK' is so freakin' hard to understand?[/QB]The need to ask is difficult to understand - outside of courtesy of course. But trying to explain manners may be a futile effort. I'm checking out the CMBB License, from page 2 of the manual: User-created scenarios may be distributed free of charge, but may not be sold or licensed, or included as part of any package or product that is sold or licensed, without prior written consent ..." Isn't saying something like "This scenario can only be distributed from the Scenario Depot unless permission is given by the author" or some of the other similar things I see in text files technically a license? I'll be the first to admit that this is a silly point and is really arguing definition and minutia, but I thought I'd just throw it on the table for debate. CMBB is really a game of firsts - that's got to be the first licensing agreement I've ever read. Is there any aspect of this game that hasn't been thoroughly covered in this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by El Cid_Cagi: As I've said before, we will never agree about this issue. After reading your last messages, I don't have the interest to agree with you about anything. Bye, Mr. Dorosh, keep feeling happy with your 700+ downloadsI'll also feel happy about the positive reviews at the Depot, as well as the emails I've gotten with direct feedback, and as Berli suggests, the enjoyment I've gotten playing them personally PBEM. I regret the bad feelings on your part, but you're obviously not capable of understanding the arguments put in front of you. Perhaps if you examine your obvious pride in authorship of this zip file, you might be able to relate it to that felt by scenario designers, mod artists, or any of the other various talents who contribute/have contributed original work to this community. But then again, the arguments matter not, as was ably pointed out. You a) violated commonly held conventions established by this community, and, violated the intent of the Scenario Depot from where you got the scenarios, and, c) violated the trust of members of the community and despite the rantings of a vocal and talentless few, that kind of makes the arguments irrelevant. The apology might have been accepted, but the continued pleas for sympathy coupled with your inability to see the other side of the issue pretty much cancelled that out. Thanks to all for the discussion here, it is good to rehash these issues every once in awhile; I sincerely believe it is for the common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: I am intrigued with your rationale to hinder the potential search and automated download of categorized multiple scenarios. 1) Statistically, what is the current ratio of downloads to reviews posted? 2) Statistically, what is the current ratio of downloads to reviews read? 3) With your explanation linking the importance of reviews to the single download, what is your statistical proof that people actually read a review and then download a single scenario and then post a review? 4) Do you think it impossible for a person to download, say, a pack of 5 "highly-rated, short, tcp/ip" scenarios as a multiple download and THEN review each one? 5) Or, simply put, what in God's name does the single download have to do with reviews?Simply put, if a scenario is downloaded as part of the FRANKO'S SCENARIOS SUCK PAK, what is the likelihood (statistically speaking) that anyone who plays them will ever go back to the Depot to review them? What will the statistical likelihood be that those who download the DOROSH'S SUCKY SCENARIO PAK will have never even heard of the Scenario Depot? Or would have bothered to visit the dpot link provided where the zip was downloaded from? I guess we could throw retarded questions back and forth all day, based on speculation. Need we bother? [ January 07, 2003, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Page 2 of the manual states (thanks murpes) that: "User-created scenarios may be distributed free of charge, but may not be sold or licensed ... without prior written consent from Battlefront.com." This says to me that what El Cid_Cagi did was OK (from a legal point of view) because the scenarios cannot be licensed by their authors (without permission from Battlefront). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: Page 2 of the manual states (thanks murpes) that: "User-created scenarios may be distributed free of charge, but may not be sold or licensed ... without prior written consent from Battlefront.com." This says to me that what El Cid_Cagi did was OK (from a legal point of view) because the scenarios cannot be licensed by their authors (without permission from Battlefront).Good God, is this yet another, slightly more focused incarnation of Gunny Bunny? I think that perhaps the greatest contribution anyone could make to the CM community would be a spreadsheet of the various 'incarnations' of known trolls, their distinguishing characteristics, topics, pet peeves, and modus operandi, with dates of arrival, bannings, etc. I just can't help but wonder, sometimes, when I come across some incredibly high member number poster, with no email address (not even some anonymous hotmail or yahoo account) in their profile, a willingness to stir up anger and a delight in taking the piss out, rather than posting in a reasonable and thoughtful manner, whether I'm once again encountering another demonic resurrection. Perhaps what BFC needs most is not more moderators, but a damn good exorcist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Seanachai: I find that trolls tend to attack the person and not provide any rational discussion. Hence your post. The point I was making was that from a legal point of view the independent scenario designers don't appear to have a leg to stand on when it comes to controlling the redistribution of their work. Instead of a personal attack, why don't you attempt to add something to this important issue of copyright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: But then again, the arguments matter not, as was ably pointed out. You a) violated commonly held conventions established by this community, and, violated the intent of the Scenario Depot from where you got the scenarios, and, c) violated the trust of members of the community Oh please drop the melodrama. Granted I've only been here for half a year, but the "commonly held conventions established by this community" as they are displayed in this thread is definitively nothing you should be proud of, nor should want to hold on to. From where I'm sitting, many of the scenario designers posting in this thread are coming across as the scenario making equivalents of ballerina primadonnas. Violated the trust of members of the community did he? Who trusted him? And with what? Do you often trust unknown people posting under false (or real) names on a bulletin board? and despite the rantings of a vocal and talentless few, that kind of makes the arguments irrelevant. The apology might have been accepted, but the continued pleas for sympathy coupled with your inability to see the other side of the issue pretty much cancelled that out. To be perfectly honest, you are not exactly coming across as the level-headed pillar of rational discussion either. He has said that he understands your point of view, but he disagrees with it. To me at least, that means that he does see your side of the issue, he just doesnt agree with it. The same thing can hardly be said about all the "he should have asked first, now he has betrayed us"-people. I sincerely believe it is for the common good.Weird, I think that threads like these do more harm to the community than good. I mean at least my views on a couple of things have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: Instead of a personal attack, why don't you attempt to add something to this important issue of copyright?Something you should think on yourself. This is all a question of common courtesy. Plain and simple. You said: Why should anyone help such a rude bunch of people? You are right... why should we provide scenarios for you? [ January 07, 2003, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: Berlichtingen ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Kernow Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I think that there is a lot of the pot calling the kettle black on this thread Scenario designers seem to be claiming a god given moral highground that lets them post in a TROLL/non-rational and emotive like manner but not those that might have a cotrary but valid opinion. I agree with them but the way several of them have made their case in this thread is shamefull. It is to be seen that it not just the process of scenario creation that is of service to the community. It is the dual process of creation and review. I dont care if the reviews massage a scenario designers ego, I care that they are the only sources of information about the quality of a given scenario. If i think a scenario is great or realy stinks I make sure I get it out there for others to see. I have downloaded these packs so I am a hypocrite, however I am concerned that they will interefer with the reviewing process and therefore limit the amount of information available about scenarios. Perhaps the packs should include a readme urging people to review the sceanrios at the depot with hyperlinks linking to the page each scenario is displayed on. [ January 07, 2003, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Cpt Kernow ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101: Uh oh Some egos have been bruised here. People this is a video game and nothing more. If you want to call yourself an "artist" go ahead but you guys are living in some computer nerd fantasy world. You are not artists, you might be good at spending 20 hours in front of a computer clicking on your mouse, but you are not "artists" ( Unless you are Gordon Molek) All people want to do is have some fun with a game they bought and helping other people have just as much fun. But egos should not get in the way. If you feel like you've been robbed of something intellectual ( a digital map) don't worry... everything will be o.k. You know Hoppenfaust, it is posts like yours that really destroy my motivation to release scenarios in the future. I put days, not just hours into a single scenario, probably a week's worth in some cases, if not more, and even then they sometimes come up lacking. You obviously are quite clueless about what it takes to do a quality scenario. If it is so easy to do, why do you not go ahead and awe us all with your great capability. Quite frankly, I think it is your post better than most others in this thread that show how the forum has gone downhill. And don't start on that silly artist-crap again. If I write a paper analysing the impact of new electricity trading arrangements on micro-generation for work, I am also going to assert my intellectual rights to it. It has nothing to do with artistry, you can take that strawman right now, take it out and burn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 every scenario has the email addy of the author,right? if i play the scenario i can tell the author my opinon. most of us dont have time to act always as we want,write reviews and so on. some of us (maybe only myself) dont speak good english. i enjoy the free work of talented people to make a game better (what is quake whitout the free works around?). if it is free it means free. if not and i want it i pay, np. you cant say free and then you say but .... ok. i thing this thread is important and it would be a good thing if this discussion go ahead maybe a little bit friendlier. at time i play (or had play ) b+t fall blau as pbem yet turn 5 so i cant say anything right now about it. danube blues ( i know ) over 5 times very great imo for 2 players. i thank all people that do free work for a great and friendly gaming community. excuse my english but i dont like the cdv forum very much. and my reading is better than my writing so on this forum i get very important infos. btw. cmbb is a great game but not the only one and there is a real life so this thing : you can take 5 minutes to do this or that is not so easy as it seems to be . friendly greetings to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I have been in contact with el-cid, and like Berli, I understand and appreciate what he tried to do. However, like Mike, I would want to be asked, especially since I am being attacked for historical scenarios which "aren't balanced". Obviously, someone needs to learn what historical means.... See the Troll at the depot thread in the scenario forum to see what was said. Now I come here, and see I only spend 20 hours to make a scenario...and what i make should be free to all. Hmm...does this mean the 3 weeks spent on making Panzers in Finland, getting accurate reasearch, accurate maps, talking with Finns, and getting stuff translated, co-ordinating testing both single and two player, making changes as more things are found out...was done in 20 hours? That I should not take pride in my work, and I shouldn't give thanks to the people that helped me make it? Being asked to use your work is a courtesy, and common sense. I certainly would have thought it over...as I already have rune paks. It just amazes me that people think i owe them something when making a scenario. Also amazes me that people here have so little respect for the hard work that goes into a scenario. So, like Andreas...i now have little incentive to make more. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 You know Rune, I really have to agree with you. Between this and Harry, it is just not worth it. Screw 'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Seanachai: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by UberFunBunny: Page 2 of the manual states (thanks murpes) that: "User-created scenarios may be distributed free of charge, but may not be sold or licensed ... without prior written consent from Battlefront.com." This says to me that what El Cid_Cagi did was OK (from a legal point of view) because the scenarios cannot be licensed by their authors (without permission from Battlefront).Good God, is this yet another, slightly more focused incarnation of Gunny Bunny? I think that perhaps the greatest contribution anyone could make to the CM community would be a spreadsheet of the various 'incarnations' of known trolls, their distinguishing characteristics, topics, pet peeves, and modus operandi, with dates of arrival, bannings, etc. I just can't help but wonder, sometimes, when I come across some incredibly high member number poster, with no email address (not even some anonymous hotmail or yahoo account) in their profile, a willingness to stir up anger and a delight in taking the piss out, rather than posting in a reasonable and thoughtful manner, whether I'm once again encountering another demonic resurrection. Perhaps what BFC needs most is not more moderators, but a damn good exorcist!</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Yes, screw the bastards who fail to show proper respect for the scenario makers. It is just not worth it anymore. I say no more scenarios until the scenario makers are given the respect and admiration they so richly deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 It is amazing to me after reading through this thread, how it deteriorated from an open discussion on the right thing to do with scenarios, to a "gee whiz, Spanky, these guys suck, so I'm not releasing my scenarios anymore" I can understand that a person places a certain amount of ownership on anything they create, and we in this community should be grateful to the guys that take the time and effort to produce scenarios or mods or whatever, for the rest of us, free of charge. We have an imperfect, yet workable scenario download system, it keeps most of us happy, and allows the designers to gain some feedback as well. Lets keep using that method, until something better comes along. To Dorosh, Berli, Rune, Andreas, and the other talented designers out there, please don't take "your ball and go home", just because you get pissed at a few guys, who really understand you point, but want to do it their way regardless. It seems that some consensus was reached here, people understand your point of view, and no real harm was done, don't punish the entire community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoot Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Jesus Christ. Out of touch with reality (bad car accident, thanks for askin' )for a couple of months and I come back to find this? This doesn't feel "fun" anymore. Off to squander me time upon the sunny shores of ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalistdoginchina Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I can't believe some of the resposes here :confused: El Cid is doing something positive for the CM community, as he did with his excellent CMBO scenario pack for which he received heaps of praise here at this forum. A short while ago he sent the following message to Kevin "Kinch" at Boots and Tracks with a CC to me also; Hi Kevin First of all congratulate for your excellent page, you and all the people of B&T have been doing a great job for all gamers around there (a especial salute to Terry, we have met on the battlefield before!) The purpose of this message is to let you know that I have added to my page your Stalingrad Pack (ver 1.01) renamed so each scenario can be played in chronological order (SP01, SP02, and so on) Currently I have edited only the spanish version of my Combat Mission page, but you can retrieve the file from there. An english readme is included. http://www.chema-cagi.com/Combat_Mission_ESP.html Below is the description text included in the file: Boots & Tracks "STALINGRAD PACK 1.01" Chronological for history buffs by José M. "Chema_Cagi" Cagigal These are simply the excellent scenarios contained in the so-called "Stalingrad Pack" from the people of "Boots & Tracks", but renamed so they can be played in a more chronological order, as a sort of campaign This is for all people who likes to play CM scenarios with some historical background I have added also the suffix " - 2P" for those scenarios best suitable for head to head play, as estated by the authors (except in the case of "The Library", which originally included 2 versions, for solo and 2P play) The scenarios provided are those from the original release plus some that were updated after the release of CMBB 1.01 patch The scenarios are provided alone, without docs, splash screen, etc. For additional info and material, please check this page: http://www.militarygameronline.com/boots_tracks/index.php?page=stalingrad And that's it. Keep up the good work! and have my best regards Jose M. Cagigal I thought to myself, wow, cool idea. All these efforts from guys like El cid in the CM community enable Boots & Tracks scenarios to be distributed to a wider audience - after all that's why we release them to the general public is it not? - for CM players to enjoy the fruits of our labour. Any scenario i design (Please note i do not speak as a spokesman for Boots & Tracks or the other team members here, but as an individual)is put on a public server for people to enjoy, if scenario packs enable my scenarios to be played by a wider audience then i am quite happy about that. I do like to get feedback at the depot, but since reviews are few and far between it is not really such a big issue. There is no need to get panties in a twist over this issue guys. Now, i am not sure about Kevin, but i did not forward this to our team leader, i thought it was quite harmless and thought nothing more of it. El Cid has my full blessing to include my work in any of his scenario packs. Terry (CDIC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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