CMBB scenario packs: here (no more)

[El Cid_Cagi]

Hi everybody:

I have added to my page some CMBB scenario packs. They have been selected from those listed at The Scenario Depot among those that have had at least some positive feedback from players.

They are separated in 4 packs:

CMBB Historical scenarios: 28 scenarios and 6 operations based on actual engagements

CMBB Solo Play: 88 scenarios and 5 ops suitable for playing in solitaire

CMBB 2-Player pack: 126 scenarios and 18 operations suitable for playing head-to-head

CMBB TCP Pack: 51 small scenarios (selected from the 2-player pack) suitable for fast, single session TCP/IP battles

The scenarios that have been highly praised at The Scenario Depot have been renamed with an "$" at the end, for easy selection (especially useful for the 2 player oriented scenarios, since the $ usually signals a well-balanced scenario based on player experiences)

You can get the packs at my homepage, in the Combat Mission section

Best regards to all

EDIT: The scenario packs have been REMOVED, due to the opposition of some scenario designers. Read the details in this thrilling thread!

Edit: removed e-mail notification of messages

[ January 06, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ]

[MrNoobie]

muy bien

[illo]

I thank thee very much.

[Das Reich]

nice...

[CombinedArms]

This must have taken a LOT of work and is much appreciated. Muchas Gracias!

[Michael Dorosh]

Should the scenario designers not have been contacted first, to obtain permission to be released in this manner? My scenarios were done with the understanding the Scenario Depot would have exclusive rights to distributing them.

I also don't like the idea of a third party passing judgement on these scenarios, without the benefit of people being able to read the reviews and understanding why these scenarios have been rated the way they have been.

I'd appreciate it if my scenarios were removed from these packs.

[ January 04, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Franko]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Should the scenario designers not have been contacted first, to obtain permission to be released in this manner? My scenarios were done with the understanding the Scenario Depot would have exclusive rights to distributing them.

I also don't like the idea of a third party passing judgement on these scenarios, without the benefit of people being able to read the reviews and understanding why these scenarios have been rated the way they have been.

I'd appreciate it if my scenarios were removed from these packs.

Same here.

Frank

[El Cid_Cagi]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Should the scenario designers not have been contacted first, to obtain permission to be released in this manner? My scenarios were done with the understanding the Scenario Depot would have exclusive rights to distributing them.

I also don't like the idea of a third party passing judgement on these scenarios, without the benefit of people being able to read the reviews and understanding why these scenarios have been rated the way they have been.

I'd appreciate it if my scenarios were removed from these packs.

Ok, as you wish. Your scenarios will be removed ASAP, but since The Scenario Depot don't list the author in their general list, it will take me some additional hours to separate what are your scenarios. Can you gently provide me a list of your CMBO and CMBB scenarios included in the packs?

Anyway, although I find very legitimate your position, I don't fully understand it, since I have not done any arbitrary selection, but a selection based precisely in the Scenario Depot player ratings, not my own opinion (I can count SIX links to the scenario depot in my download page)

Furthermore, I did contact Keith Miller from The Scenario Depot before officially announcing the scenario packs, and he did not tell me anything about exclusive hosting of scenarios, so I was totally unaware of your position

But no more arguing; your scenarios will be removed, Mr. Dorosh

Edit: Same there, Mr. Franko

[ January 04, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ]

[murpes]

Originally posted by El Cid_Cagi:

eh, I don't - I'm of the opinion that once a scenario or mod is released "into the wild" it's pretty much fair game, especially for mods since they're in a proprietary format. Does BFC have a position on this, or a "terms of use" deal in regards to cme files*? I remember similar arguments a few years ago, when some company gathered up a bunch of Doom wads and started selling them for a relatively low fee on CD. id's position was that you could make all the wads you wanted, you just couldn't sell them. Of course, the Doom community cried foul, but the company took the position that they weren't selling the wads, they were selling the media and charging a convenience fee.

[* I believe they have a right to since the structure of the files is their intellectual property.]

El Cid_Cagi is doing a redistribution, nothing else as far as I can tell - even if he added his own opinion I wouldn't have a problem with it. IMO, neither here unethical or out of line especially since there isn't any commerce involved.

All the above aside, I do have to say that I admire that we can sort this out here amicably among ourselves. But what's going to happen when someone grabs a bunch of scenarios and tried to sell them?

[edit holy cow there were some spelling errors!]

[ January 04, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: murpes ]

[Michael Dorosh]

murpes, all valid points, and I appreciate El Cid's response.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my basic objection is this:

The scenario depot is already an imperfect system in an imperfect world, but it is the best system we've got.

Now, there are two reasons that El Cid's sampler is not a reflection of quality scenarios:

a) his sampling does not include unreviewed scenarios. A scenario that is unreviewed is not by definition bad - until such time as El Cid comes along, and "markets" scenarios that only have reviews attached. This automatically disqualifies scenarios that may be true gems. He has no way of knowing. In essence, he is stating that all unreviewed scenarios are not worthy of being seen - and effectively prohibits people from even trying them. At least at the Depot, people can see whether or not a scenario has been unrated, or rated lower than an 8 or by fewer than 3 people - there is no such distinction in El Cid's sampler.

Those scenarios at the depot have been imperfectly rated. How many pillocks have gone there, downloaded a scenario clearly for PBEM play only, played it against the AI, and then rated the scenario down because they lost?

The Scenario Depot still works despite the latter, because people can see for themselves the reviews of the scenarios, and judge for themselves based on what is at the Depot whether or not the reviews are accurate or fair. By simply throwing together a sampler of everything that is rated 8 or higher, El Cid is being completely subjective and entirely unfair to many scenarios that have not been rated at all, or have been unfairly rated.

Moreover, scenario designers use the stats at the Depot as feedback. Some of my scenarios are in the top downloaded list. I take it this means that someone has gone to the trouble of downloading them because they sparked their interest. Conversely, those scenarios of mine that have few downloads tell me something else.

People grabbing 80 scenarios at once thanks to El Cid tells me, the designer, absolutely nothing at all. How am I supposed to know how many times my scenario has been downloaded, if someone else is offering them up as part of a grab-bag? This is why I prefer the Depot to have solo distribution of my scenarios. There is much more to this matter than meets the eye, and it is not about ego or copyright.

[ January 04, 2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[GreenGriffon]

Gotta agree with Michael - his rationale makes perfect sense.

Although it was definitely a nice gesture to package up the highly-rated scenarios for everyone, it is somewhat unfair to the authors who have posted scenarios that have not been reviewed yet, or those who rely on user feedback at The Depot.

Just my $.02

GG

[ January 05, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: GreenGriffon ]

[Nick Hyle]

Jose, this looks like it was quite a bit of work - thanks!

I just downloaded them - hopefully I got the versions that have not yet been emasculated.

I certainly fall into the category of gamer who'd rather get a chunk of scenarios this way, and maybe check out the Depot later or not as I please, rather than HAVE to go there and choose individually. It's nice to have the option.

Nick Hyle

[aka_tom_w]

"All the above aside, I do have to say that I admire that we can sort this out here amicably among ourselves. But what's going to happen when someone grabs a bunch of scenarios and tried to sell them?"

It happened with CMBO Mods and BFC BUSTED the rascals. Nailed 'em right between the eyes with a cease and desist order and threat of costly law suit that they knew they would lose. That one is a little different because IIRC they were only selling previously released (for free) mods.

So this issue is different, but as an end user, I am happy for the effort, and the minute the link and thread was posted I went and downloaded all the scenario's offered in their zipped file format because I appreciate the effort and enjoy the relative ease of "one stop scenario shopping".

THANKS again for the effort to post them all as easy to download zip files.

-tom w

[ January 05, 2003, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[El Cid_Cagi]

Well, my idea about the scenario packages was conceived from a player's point of view:

after visiting the Depot regularly (2-3 times/week) for a time, reading the reviews, etc and having grabbed a lot of CMBB and CMBO scenarios, I soon find my "Scenarios" folder full of hundreds (it would be thousand for CMBO) of scenarios.

The description line of most scenarios don't tell if they are designed or are suitable for solo or H2H gameplay, and I like too to play "historical" scenarios when playing alone

And I don't like Quickbattles when playing MP, I prefer always to play "thematic" scenarios (as stated "The purpose of these collections is just to play "balanced" scenarios either when playing alone or head to head, without using Quickbattles all the way. Most of these scenarios have pretty designed maps, ad-hoc forces and/or some historical background, some things that QB lack of")

So I conceived the idea of having all CM scenarios separated by their characteristics, and this could be useful for other gamers elsewhere

After weeks of work (I'd contacted Keith Miller from the Depot by early December), I must admit I was angry at first by the response from Michael and Frank. After some sleep, I see things more calmly and I understand more their position, to a certain point, but I would make to them (and everyone else) some considerations:

1. I don't think that regular visitors of the Depot will stop to visit it because of these packages. I'm sure they will still being there, voting, getting the latest scenarios and such. Moreover, some non-visitors may start to go to the Depot from my page, giving the number of links to it. I actually encourage players to go to the Depot and give their votes

2. The "average" gamer don't wants to read through two thousand of pages of scenario descriptions, and scroll down to the base of the page to read player comments...He goes to the index and grabs some scenarios, most probably basing on the shown ratings

3. In the past (back in early 2000) I did a "PBEMpack" of CMBO scenarios, based on the ratings at CMHQ. I kept updating the package regularly for some months, adding new scenarios and newer versions of existing scenarios, but since I had no website at that time and other personal reasons, I had to abandon the idea (they were gently hosted at Col.Klotz' "ASL to CM site", which sadly was erased out of Earth by Hasbro lawyers)

4. There's now a dilemma: if I remove Michael Dorosz, Frank's and anyone else scenarios from the packages, there would be gamers out there that will be deprived from the excellent scenarios from these designers (the hypothetical "average gamer that don't read all the reviews and ratings")

If you really want still to have your scenarios removed, I will do it and will add a line telling so in my page: "there are no scenarios from these designers, as they asked to be removed: Mr. X, Mr. Y, Mr. Z, etc You should go to the Depot and grab them individually, since there are some great scenarios done by them out there"

5. It has been said: I have no economical interest in this. In fact, since I have a fairly amount of visitors to my webpage, I have it hosted on a server that actually costs me some money, just for having enough bandwith. Furthermore, I keep the content of my page both in english and spanish, requiring almost double web space

6. And finally, my personal position about game extras done by gamers. It does not make nothing to Michael and Frank position, but will help to understand why I did not contact previously some hundreds of scenario designers

I have done on my own some gaming aids for many games, as can be seen in my page. My "Beginner's Guide for Europa Universalis 2" has been even translated to german and russian, and it's currently hosted in several EU2-dedicated sites. I would prefer to know every time it's downloaded elsewhere (yes, it's a boost for my ego ), but I accept that once I have made these documents and playing guides for helping novice gamers and increasing other's enjoyment of a game I love, the more people that may read them, the better

I'd though that scenario designers would have a similar point of view, from the moment they have their scenarios not on his own hard disk for his personal enjoyment, but on a public server, available for download by anyone else

But as said above, I understand the position of any scenario designer that may want to have their scenarios removed from the packages (and I have remember that I may search in The Depot to have scenarios sorted by author, so you don't nedd to provide me with any list, I can do it on my own)

I have not "emasculated" ( ) yet the packs, for the remote possibility that you change your mind...Will wait (unless you urge me to do so) a day or so, until reading your latest position on the issue

Best regards

Edit: updated my profile; a damn comma made my webpage address wrong, a fact that could damage my selfsteem on the long run :cool: . Hope it's properly shown now

[ January 05, 2003, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ]

[Salkin]

I totally agree with your points Michael, but I also think there is positive things about El Cids way of going about things.

I never really got hooked on scenarios (I play mostly quick battles), but I was thinking about DLing the solopack. This would give me only good scenarios and I wouldn't be put off by a bad one, and maybe I would start playing scenarios too.

Another positive thing is that people who DL this stuff would maybe discover what a great mapmaker mr Dorosh is and start DLing more of your stuff from the scenario Depot.

Anyways in the end I still think it's the mapmakers decision.

//Salkin

the Swede

(who wants to thank mr Dorosh for all his interesting posts in this forum )

[Mr. Die Easy]

Hi mates,

I think El Cid_Cagi did a great job making a lot of quality scenarios available in easy-to-manage packs. I like this option of downloading a pack of highly rated scenarios even though the rating is imperfect.

On the other hand I can also understand why scenario designers like Michael and Frank have some reservations against this redistribution.

Could a compromise be to make such packs available on The Scenario Depot?

Even though the rating system is imperfect I believe a lot of users would be happy for such an option. Given the imperfect ratingsystem we should not think of the packs as being the "best" scenarios, but more like an easy way to get scenarios which have received at least "indications" of good quality.

Just a suggestion.

Best regards Mr. Die Easy

[Slater]

I would have to agree with El Cid_Cagi, If a player plays a Scenario on the pack and it sticks out as being greatly enjoyble and then he will review it in the depot if the player doesnt then he very likely wouldnt if he downloaded it from depot. anyways thats my view on the feedback point I hope this will incourage mike and franko to keep there great scenarios on the pack. PLEEEASE

[El Cid_Cagi]

(more, sorry)

When I'd contacted Keith Miller I suggest him to add the "solo play/two player" argument as an alternative mode of sorting the scenarios at the Depot. I guess it would involve a lot of extra work (or better said, I suppose it can require a lot of extra work for an otherwise excellent site; I'm rather non-literate at web-editing issues)

(Just for the curiosity of someone that may ask "hey! who's that guy that comes and "steals" other's scenarios!", please check my Europa Universalis 2 section and see the kind of work I'm doing just for sharing the enjoyment for the games I love with other gamers)

Edit: even more. Just added this statement to my download page:

IMPORTANT NOTICE:(01/05) Please keep in mind that the best single source for CM scenarios is The Scenario Depot. Not only will you get the newest scenarios, but you should read other player's reviews of the existing ones

The fact that a scenario is not included in these packages may be simply because they are new enough and have not yet being reviewed at the Depot. Moreover, the rating system is not perfect so true gems or your ever-dreamed scenario can be in The Depot and not in these packages

I have to encourage players to regularly visit the Scenario Depot and calmly reading individual scenario reviews and ratings

Hope it helps to clarify the situation (and to keep the scenario packs as they are )

[ January 05, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: El Cid_Cagi ]

[MG-42]

Hmm,

This thread reminds me of a previous post whereby a scenario author (apologies I can't recall whom) sugested that all scenario authors used a standardized method for presenting their scenarios. In particular, his suggestion was that the main descriptor for the the scenario as shown in the battle select screen begins with the date i.e 43-05-11 (I think this is a great idea as I like to play chronologically for the most part). So is there any way you guys can come up with a standardized form that all aubmitters to the Scenario Depot would be required to follow?? Would this alleviate any perceived or actual problems?

Regards

MG-42

[ichadwick]

Argh. What a topic. It emeshes us in arguments over rights, copyright and ownership. As an occassional modder and scenario designer, I'd like to add my $0.02 worth (and as a former editor who worked with copyright issues).

First: Ask before you post anyone else's work. Sorry if it's inconvenient, but it is not yours. You can link to anything without putting up on your site, but to simply grab a file and post it isn't kosher. And depending on the country, probably illegal under international copyright asgreements (the Net is covered under most copyright laws, by the way!).

Asking also defuses these sorts of threads and doesn't create the ****storm that just taking does. We don't need the animosity.

And I suspect you'll find most designers of non-commercial material happy to see their work spread around - as long as their names remain in the credits.

Show respect for the authors by asking them.

Second: This isn't commercial stuff, so we shouldn't get too hot and bothered as long as the credits are left intact and they're not being put up for sale. I think El Cid is trying to give this community a boost, not steal someone elses's work.

It's a common mistake with the Internet to believe files free for the taking are also free for the distributing.

There could be an argument that a non-commercial piece put up on a public site for general download and public use in effect releases the normal copyright restrictions. In other words, you put it into the public domain by default.

I think a little leniency on the part of the designers is warranted here. Personally, I will not be offended when (if) my efforts are mirrored on another site as long as my credits are intact.

Third: The wider we spread the files, the more users will be able to get to them, the more interest will develop, the more feedback we'll get - so mirroring the scenarios can help, not hurt, us overall. And I for one appreciates his categorization.

Anyone who doesn't want a scenario or mod mirrored should so state in either a readme file or on the site where they are hosted. That pretty much clears up any misconceptions about fair use.

Fourth: (and not relevant to this argument just an overall comment) Mods and scenarios may seem like your babies because you worked so hard on them, but as we all know, there are many that can stand a few tweaks and nudges to improve them. Spreading them around gets them more use and testing - and you may find someone improves your work as a result. This might be someone pointing out a weakness in a setup or a pink spot in a mod, or having them post a scenario "based on" your original.

Modding and scenario building is (or should be) a community exercise. Few of us are perfect, most of us work in isolation and the essential component of human creativity - feedback - is missing in many of our efforts. One way to get more feedback is to spread the files around for easier access.

I appreciate all the efforts and affection that modders and scenario designers put into their work. And I wish I had your talents and drive (and free time!). But we are all better served if we work cooperatively than fighting little turf wars over what's-mine-what's-yours.

That's a lot for two cents. Keep the change.

Ian

[Panzertruppe]

Yep.........."thats mine-not yours" Maybe I'll see you guys on "peoples court" one day! Mean while........Thanks for the effort trying to give us guys a nice "map pack". I for one enjoy playing user created scenarios and let my fellow players know when I have come across a "better then average" one. Now that is recognition!

Thanks for the effort El Cid

[ January 05, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Panzertruppe ]

[WWB]

Been out for the last few days, so I did not see this thread. But I stand with Dorosh and Franko--you really need to get permission before redistributing people's creative works, even if it is a pain. While I have little fear that you have modified anything save a filename or two, what happens when someone else wants to do something similiar and pass the work off as his own? It is a nasty situation I dont really want to see.

Also note that redistributing the CMBB CD battles is a clear violation of your CM license.

The damage is done now, but never, ever put one of my battles in your packs again.

WWB

PS: Nice EU2 section. Got me thru the growing pains of that game.

[ January 05, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: wwb_99 ]

[jwxspoon]

Personally, I have no problem with the idea. However, my scenarios are released through the Boots & Tracks design team and I would hate to see any credit taken away from that fine group of testers and designers. You will note that at the depot the B&T scenarios are not downloadable, they simply link to the B&T web page.

Obviously lots of hard work here and the best of intentions from El Cid. You may add or remove my scenarios as you see fit.

jw

[ January 05, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]

[Cmdr DeadMeat]

Damn you rule! You truly rule! The only problem, why I don't use CM Scenario Depot is that I don't know what to download. There are so many scenarios and I can't decide. Thanks again!

[cbb]

Here's my view:

I find the scenario depot somewhat cumbersome to use. If the mood strikes me that I want to play a historical, axis vs. AI, late-war scenario, I'd almost rather play a QB or design my own scenario rather than spend the time bumbling through the scenario depot trying to find something close to what I want...

So if your scenario is presently available only at the scenario depot, chances are I will never play it. If, on the other hand, there is a mechanism whereby I can download "packs" of scenarios organized in such a way that I can easily identify what I am interested in, then the chances of me playing your scenario are greatly increased.