CMBB scenario packs: here (no more)

[cbb]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But then again, the arguments matter not, as was ably pointed out. You

a) violated commonly held conventions established by this community, and,

violated the intent of the Scenario Depot from where you got the scenarios, and,

c) violated the trust of members of the community

Oh please drop the melodrama.

Granted I've only been here for half a year, but the "commonly held conventions established by this community" as they are displayed in this thread is definitively nothing you should be proud of, nor should want to hold on to. From where I'm sitting, many of the scenario designers posting in this thread are coming across as the scenario making equivalents of ballerina primadonnas.

Violated the trust of members of the community did he? Who trusted him? And with what? Do you often trust unknown people posting under false (or real) names on a bulletin board?

and despite the rantings of a vocal and talentless few, that kind of makes the arguments irrelevant. The apology might have been accepted, but the continued pleas for sympathy coupled with your inability to see the other side of the issue pretty much cancelled that out.

To be perfectly honest, you are not exactly coming across as the level-headed pillar of rational discussion either. He has said that he understands your point of view, but he disagrees with it. To me at least, that means that he does see your side of the issue, he just doesnt agree with it. The same thing can hardly be said about all the "he should have asked first, now he has betrayed us"-people.

I sincerely believe it is for the common good.

Weird, I think that threads like these do more harm to the community than good. I mean at least my views on a couple of things have changed.</font>

[Cpt Kernow]

Captitalistdoginchina said

if scenario packs enable my scenarios to be played by a wider audience then i am quite happy about that. I do like to get feedback at the depot, but since reviews are few and far between it is not really such a big issue

I nominate that we make Captitalistdoginchina the patron saint of SD's as he has shown considerable virtue as a human being by his adoption of this attitude.

As a saint he can serve as an example to other less enlightened SD's who seek callow praise and adoration.

I'll phone the vatican.

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

To Dorosh, Berli, Rune, Andreas, and the other talented designers out there, please don't take "your ball and go home", just because you get pissed at a few guys, who really understand you point, but want to do it their way regardless.

It seems that some consensus was reached here, people understand your point of view, and no real harm was done, don't punish the entire community.

Damned shame isn't it!?

I, for one, would understand and probably do the same if I were one of the designers.

At first glance their behavior seems rather childish, but, really what motivation do they have for staying involved with a community that no longer respects their wish's, let alone their efforts. Overall I judge the designers behavior as predictable and perhaps most important, correct!

No, there is some type of ®evolution going on here, I don't pretend to understand it but I do recognize it, and predict that very little good will come from it.

Oh, and yes, their work is an ART.

KC

edited for spelling

[ January 07, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Krazy Canuck ]

[desim8]

The Linux community puts an awful lot of work into Linux. The most stuff is released under the GNU GPL so people can improve and redistribute to the community what are 'not perfect' works to begin with.

They can take on Microsoft working this way.

Should no one be allowed to improve on scenarios except the original author?

Dave

[rune]

But in coding Linux, anything released with someone else's code, the author of the code is given credit, and is asked if the code can be used.

That is the bottom line, play my scenario, don't play my scenarios, the choice is yours. However, allow me to determine where I want it posted...I have been attacked by enough assholes lately. Now, I emailed El-Cid and send him my paks of scenarios and a thanks for what he was trying to do...along with my reasons of why I would have been liked to have been asked. This has nothing to do with the bull**** posted above....it has to do with common courtesy. When you spend 100+ hours on a scenario, not 20, you should take some pride in your work.

The bull**** above about worship us is exactly that...pure bull****. It is about ASKING an author what is to be done with his work. After all, he created it...why shouldn't he determine if he wants it released as a pak? I made scenarios just for certain sites as a favor or for tourneys...so I don't post them all over.

Bottom line folks, it isn't about linux, it isn't about worship, it isn't about designers whining, it IS about being asked what you would like to have done with your work.

El-cid made an honest mistake..and I hold no ill will towards him, and send my scenarios as a thanks for what he tried. That doesn't mean everyone can do what they want with my work...and that is what is is folks...my work. Ask me is all I ask. Leave the bull**** and attacks out of this.

El-Cid, again, thanks for the attempt, your heart was in the right place. Admiral Keth, ignore the idiots, as I said, not perfect, but have always said thank you for what you do. Sorry you also have to deal with people who don't appreciate what you do for free...

Rune

[xerxes]

What Rune said.

[Hoopenfaust2]

Don't get me wrong, you guys do a lot of hard work for the community (more than others) and I've never complained or given a bad review ( because there are no scenarios Der Kessel or B&T have done that are bad) but it was just the way that everybody jumped on the Spanish doctor's back. Now he is gone, chased away by people you believe he commited some Combat Mission crime. Don't tell me he wasn't thinking "community" when he decided to do what he did. He apologized and did what you asked (which he actually didn't have to) and people still continued to inform him of this silent CM code we must "all" follow.

wwb: "Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the treats that many like myself have given to you all freely"

Smells like EGO to me.

[ January 07, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Hoopenfaust 101 ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101:

Smells like EGO to me.

And what is wrong with that? I am the first to admit that I gain some satisfaction from honest feedback, or someone sending me an email saying they enjoyed the stuff I produced. Yes, it is good for my ego in many different ways not just related to feedback, otherwise I would not be doing it, since I certainly don't get paid for it.

Posts about bruised egos, or the BS written by Hortlund and Niles really don't do anything to get people motivated. The sooner the nitwits who post them understand that, the better. They are doing serious damage to this community by posting them, probably revelling in their smartness at the same time.

Let's see, we scenario designers ask for a discussion about a different review system, and we are a bunch of ninnies who can not handle negative feedback. We ask that people contact us before rebundling our scenarios, and we get called a bunch of whinging, raving egoists with allusions of grandeur. Fortunately I know that there are only a few airheads who think like that on this board, and I don't give a toss about their opinion, otherwise I would have gone a long time ago.

I am not throwing my toys out of the pram on this one, my opinion from the initial post still stands, it was a good idea lacking in execution. End of story.

I am however very seriously concerned, and have been for a while, that on this board it seems now en vogue to expect something for nothing, and insulting those delivering that something in the bargain is also all hunky-dory. And when they don't like it, you insult them some more.

[rune]

Chased away? I think not. I have emailed with him, and while he is done with packs, [a shame really] he is still about. Matter of fact, the offer still stand El-cid...when the 2 scenarios in those paks have been played in the tourneys, then you can freely post it. I will let you know when they have been completed being played.

As for silent CM code...would I take a Mod author's work and change it or post it without their permission? Of course not...and a scenario is just as hard to do correctly. AGAIN, it is about common courtesy. This isn't directed at el-cid, but the people who think the designers are over reacting.

Review the scenarios, play them, or don't. I make scenarios to teach, to enjoy, for fun. Now i get attacked for giving away my work, and that is still the key here, my work, for free.

As for ego...I think it is less ego and more pride at work you have done. I get good and bad reviews...as I should...I learn from them...and hopefully make better scenarios. WWB works hard at scenario making and testing my and other's scenarios. I hope he has pride in what he does...sounds more like that then ego.

Last, I have never refused to help a new scenario designer...altho I have had to make them wait with my work load. To come here and say I say worship me is pure crap, and insulting. I have made now over 100 scenarios for CMBO and CMBB, and have never been attacked like what is going on now. This is ridiculous...

Rune

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I am however very seriously concerned, and have been for a while, that on this board it seems now en vogue to expect something for nothing, and insulting those delivering that something in the bargain is also all hunky-dory. And when they don't like it, you insult them some more.

If you look a bit more carefully at the various posts in this thread, you will note that most of the insults come from various scenario designers.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

If you look a bit more carefully at the various posts in this thread, you will note that most of the insults come from various scenario designers.

Well, I found your post pretty insulting. You can pull an ASL Vet of course and try to hide behind your low-level sarcasm.

How about this - if you don't have to add anything to the topic, which you clearly don't, since you busy yourself with sniping, just stay out of it?

[imported_major_tom]

oops

[ January 07, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: major_tom ]

[aka_tom_w]

I have read this whole thread and all the posts in it.

It is Sad

It is most certianly one of the low points of my forum experience with either CMBB or CMBO. I find it unforunate the others new to this forum may actually conclude that this level of regretable communication is reflective of our community here.

I'm not sure if this fits here but...

"It takes a Village"

perhaps everyone can brighten up and let this whole issue fade into a bad memory.

Lets move on and focus on positive new things like "When's the next patch available ???"

-tom w

[murpes]

Hi mom!

[Admiral Keth]

All,

Here's my final views on this matter:

1) The paradigm by which The Scenario Depot operates is not going to change any time soon. If you don't like how it operates, if you think it's too cumbersome or hard to use, then don't use it! There are plenty of other superb and well-designed scenario sites. Or better still build one of your own, apparently it's easy.

2) I am certainly not opposed to building a "Read the Scenario Synopsis, click the download checkbox", but I am not in a position to build this anytime soon. Nor will I do it without 100% consensus from the authorial community.

I spend 10+ hours per day building fecking complex order entry systems for companies such as Time Warner, Sun Microsystems, Broadcom, and 36 other Fortune 500 companies. Don't tell me what can and can't be done. Right now I'm working with a company that uses FileMaker and Lasso; fecking primitive compared to other technologies out there.

With regards to statistics, 1/10th of 1% of all scenarios downloaded are reviewed. Everybody ask yourself this question, of ALL of the scenarios you have downloaded, how many have you reviewed?

The way I see it, the arguement boils down to this: people want a simple method by which they can download scenarios en masse without having to feel guilty about doing anything for them, or offering anything back to the authorial community for their (the authors') efforts. If that's what the authors want as well, then I'll happily build it. In the mean time, the current system stands as designed.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people pissing and moaning about free scenarios and services. For God's sake, what do you want?

[Spook]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I am not throwing my toys out of the pram on this one, my opinion from the initial post still stands, it was a good idea lacking in execution. End of story.

I am however very seriously concerned, and have been for a while, that on this board it seems now en vogue to expect something for nothing, and insulting those delivering that something in the bargain is also all hunky-dory. And when they don't like it, you insult them some more.

And therein is the nutshell.

Time perhaps for a poll. Who else here has designed scenarios for CM or other various wargames?

For my part, I never did create a new scenario in CMBO for others to use (though edited some others like "Crown of Thorns"), although I churned out a set of maps for the initial CMMC "CMX" exercise (2000) that had to abide well to pre-reference map terrain criteria.

And only just last week did I finish ONE CMBB scenario for hosting elsewhere. ONE. Insignificant to the sum database of user-designed scenarios out there, or even just of select authors. But the laying out the map, choosing the forces, deploying and redeploying, testing and testing and TESTING, and writing up the briefings were all a draining experience and a significant timehog. Just for ONE scenario.

And of course, this is something I can't enjoy for myself in gaming terms. How can I? I laid everything out for both sides, so no surprises or play-balance can ever be achieved in solitaire play.

What, then, motivates others to crank out many more scenarios as to repeat this experience many more times? Is it really just "ego" alone?

Or something more?

I do believe as that some here who seem the most critical of "the egos of scenario designers" haven't yet made the same effort even for ONE scenario. Because if they did, perhaps they would reflect a bit different perspective in their replies. Although I'm open to being proven wrong.

[Cpt Kernow]

Previous Post deleted.

Look scenarios make the game. Try and imagine CMBB with a finite amount of scenarios. Eurghhh.

No anticpation or surprise, borg recon eurggh.

If some (But not all, see the scenario designers patron saint) designers want there work put out there a certain way, I may not agree with it ( I dont) but I am totaly prepared to accept it.

[ January 07, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Cpt Kernow ]

[Battlefront.com]

OK, I'll weigh in here...

First of all, I skipped over most of the crap slinging here, but I get the picture. I think Spook summed it up nicely when he said:

I do believe as that some here who seem the most critical of "the egos of scenario designers" haven't yet made the same effort even for ONE scenario. Because if they did, perhaps they would reflect a bit different perspective in their replies. Although I'm open to being proven wrong.

This is similar to the age old "look at that crappy painting, I could paint a better one asleap". Talk about egos getting in the way of an honest discussion, look no further than those who are overly critical of others' work who have not done 1/10th as much themselves. But I digress from the main point...

When someone creates something it is THEIR PROPERTY. They can assign restrictions if they want to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and nobody, and I mean NOBODY, should doubt their rigtht to do this. If anybody does, I suggest contacting a Intellectual Property Rights lawyer and ask about this issue and I know I will be backed up.

OK, so the scenario guys have the legal right to place restrictions. Is it "fair" for them to do so? The perception of "fairness", in the eyes of the user, is irrelevant. It just is what it is, like it, love it, or don't care about it.

Where does that leave us? Right back where we should never have moved away from:

If you wish to distribute someone else's work, be it a scenario, sound, graphic, or what have you, get the author's permission first! The only exception should be when the author has made it clearly know that he doesn't request that permission be asked (and there are lots of guys like this out there). But the default should always be to ask. Period.

Now, did El Cid make a huge mistake that he should slash his wrists over? Hell no! But he should have asked permission. The scenario authors politely reminded him of that, which was fine and correct. Others disagreed with this, but they shouldn't have. At most they should have politely asked that the authors not place such restrictions on their work. But sadly, this is NOT how some people went about it.

If someone doesn't want to take the minimal amount of time necessary to do check with the authors, then he should simply sit back and enjoy the work of others. If a person doesn't like the current system for distributing scenarios, then seek to change the system in a positive way NOT by trampling on the people making the scenarios.

Steve

[ January 07, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Horus]

The way I see it, the arguement boils down to this: people want a simple method by which they can download scenarios en masse without having to feel guilty about doing anything for them, or offering anything back to the authorial community for their (the authors') efforts.

plz help me. do you mean when i play a scenario and don´t post a review i should feel guilty ?

what do you prefer a review because the person has the feeling to do so or a review because the person feels guilty if he/she do it not?

i have great respect for all persons that do things for this great game but i feel a little bit

??? if i think i always must say how great (or not so great) work you all are doing.

if i MUST i prefer to pay, srry no offense.

[murpes]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

When someone creates something it is THEIR PROPERTY. They can assign restrictions if they want to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and nobody, and I mean NOBODY, should doubt their rigtht to do this. If anybody does, I suggest contacting a Intellectual Property Rights lawyer and ask about this issue and I know I will be backed up.

Can I sell scenarios then?

*duck*

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

I wonder how many of the scenario designers tried to email El_Cid to complain off-line and asked to have their scenarios removed, before jumping in on this thread to stomp him?

He did what some of you wanted to, didn't he (in fact he did more, 'cause he took ALL the packs offline)? What's wrong with sending an email saying: "Hey, you're a d***nose for no having asked my permission first. Now give me an apology, and you may keep my scenarios in your pack".

When it comes to emailing people directly, most of us can be awfully lazy...

[aka_tom_w]

Um....

I think maybe this has gone too far already, but since I can't stop reading this thread I would like to introduce the concept of "In The "Public Domain" and "Fair Use".

I am not an Intellectual Proterty rights lawyer but in would kindly suggest that such an individual might reasonably ask the question "Were the scenarios in question in the Public Domain?"

If the answer to that question is yes (being that they are available for anyone to download for free) the suggestion could me made the the designers of those scenarios have then lost all copyright and claim to them "IF" they are infact in the public domain.

Now if the entire site at the Scenario Depo has Copyright signs written all over it, (and I don't know the answer to that) it could be reasonably argued that the scenario's are NOT in the Public Domain and thus the designer have not lost their intellectual property rights claim to them.

It should be noted IIRC that once a work has been given away as a promotional piece to the media for unlimited distribution it is then in the public domain and I beleive the author has lost claim to it (I think?)

I am NOT saying anyone here is RIGHT or anyone else is wrong.

I am just posting hopeing that an Intellectual property rights lawyer will show up and help us determine if the scenarios in question were or were not in fact in the Public Domain?

remember.... "It takes a village"

-tom w

[ January 07, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by Spook:

I do believe as that some here who seem the most critical of "the egos of scenario designers" haven't yet made the same effort even for ONE scenario. Because if they did, perhaps they would reflect a bit different perspective in their replies. Although I'm open to being proven wrong.

How did you know I've only done ONE scenario. Its for CMBO. Carpiquet Operation. 2 reviews from from 700+ downloads. My name isn't even there for that one. I know how much hard work goes into it. I spent $100 ( 3 weeks) obtaining aerial photos just for the scenario, and I had a blast doing it. It was fun, and hopefully everybody who does scenarios has fun making them as much as we love playing them.

Maybe I read the first few posts wrong but it seemed like people over reacted over something quite small. It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part and I'm regretting causing other members to be saddened ( I started the bad stuff last night)

I've done some mods here and there but if someone was to add something to my mod and release it without my permission I wouldn't get upset and ask for an apology. Thats just me, I've got more important things to protect than video games and its modifications.

Lets just remind people to be tactful about everything CM whether it requires permission to use a scenario or going about telling someone about the permission. Including Hoopenfaust 101

I'm not nailing the work of the designers or the websites that host them. Its just the attitude sometimes of the people who are deeply involved with this game. Andreas, Berli and Rune none of what I've have typed is directed at you (hard to tell eh) Besides you guys are smarter than myself judging from the witty posts I've read from you guys. I have gripes with some people here from the past about their tact when responding to certain news or

posts.

Cheers

[Battlefront.com]

Looks like I need to clear up the text in the CMBO and CMBB manuals concerning copyright of scenarios (or Mods in general). I'll used uberfunnybunny's comments on the previous page for a starting point"

"User-created scenarios may be distributed free of charge, but may not be sold or licensed ... without prior written consent from Battlefront.com."

This says to me that what El Cid_Cagi did was OK (from a legal point of view) because the scenarios cannot be licensed by their authors (without permission from Battlefront).

Wrong. This section specifically says that people can exchange files, provided these are "newly created" and no profit is received from their creation/distribution. Someone making a scenario from scratch and putting it out for distribution is EXACTLY what we wanted to see happen. We in no way shape or form stated/desired to chop off an author/artist's legit and basic copyrights.

So let me restate this yet again:

1. Nobody can reuse Battlefront.com materials without permission from us. This does NOT include file formats. We don't get permission from whomever developed BMP and WAV, nobody should need to get our permission to make their own stuff in CME format either.

2. The use of the CME format is, however, restricted to non-commerical use. If someone wants to create 1000 scenarios and distribute them freely, with restirctions, that is fine. If they want to sell 1000 scenarios... that is absolutely NOT fine.

3. The biggest problem we wanted to squash was someone downloading someone else's work and then reselling it without permission or royalties being paid. In other words, we do not want anybody to "get rich" off of other people's intellectual property. We know of at least one guy that tried to do this, in fact, and we squashed it quite quickly.

Honestly... I am really surprised that there is so much debate on this issue. This is as clear as a bell to me. If someone make something it is theirs to do with as they see fit EXCEPT to sell it. Why this is difficult for some to grasp is beyond me.

Steve

[SuperSulo]

I had passed this thread for some reason, but now I read the whole thing. I'll give you some comments on some of the things discussed (I know, noone cares what I think, but I have a few minutes to waste...) :

First of all, packs are good. I downloaded that PBEMPack for cmbo, was nice to get A LOT of scenarios in one go. At that time, I had no idea if there were a place to "correctly" download them one-by-one. I still don't know if there were such a place back then, I just recently found out about the scenario depot.

Anyway, as good as they are, the compiler should ask the authors first. That's just common decency, imho. If they don't reply, then I would add them anyway (if it doesn't say "don't do it" in a readme or something), but be prepared to remove it if the author later disagrees. But I also understand (but not agree with) the view that "if it's out there, it's free".

That about packs... now some other issues.

Someone said that it's BFC that owns ALL scenarios, not the designers, because it was made in "cme" format. I don't know the legal stuff, but compare it to say Adobe and Photoshop. Does Adobe own every single image made in Photoshop just because they made the tool? And Microsoft own every mod (and even BFC's original BMP's) because they made the BMP format? (I have no idea who really made the BMP format, just used MS as an example).

As for designing scenarios being an art or not, well that depends on the actual definition of "art", but I do know it takes A LOT of work putting (a good) one together. Those people that do design scenarios should have all the credits and praise for doing so.

With that said, some of them has posted in a not so nice manner, to put it mildly. It was quite a shock to see some of the outrage. I understand being called a "childish ego nerd" (paraphrased) doesn't make you glad and cheerfull, but it shouldn't be neccesary to resort to profanities. Especially to someone who didn't do the name calling in the first place. I know there are some big egos and idiots in this forum (I'm not saying any of you are), but cursing and name calling wont make them go away. "You are clueless" isn't good to have in any conversion.

Now I have only singled out the designers, but the same goes of course to everybody. Have respect for other people AND their work. Give comments/suggestions in a polite manner. Don't jump the gun if someone inadvertently steps on your toes, ask them politly to get off. Treat the other members as actual human beings, not just like a nametag on a screen. Pretty basic stuff, imo.

But then, there are a-holes even in the real world, and I doubt they act any different online than they do elsewhere. Those are best left ignored.

Oh and someone saying "to hell with all of you, two people complained about my work so now noone will ever see it again" is just being a childish ego nerd. I do hope you will release more scenarios, I understand many people likes then.

And one final note:

Once I found out about the depot, I went there and reviewed all the scenarios I had played. But then some designers said "the rating system at the depot has some flaws, idiots came there and mistreated my scenario so now it got a lower score than it should have". Being a newbie (I have never played a 2player battle) and somewhat insecure, I obviously thought/think they ment me. All I did was rank how FUN *I* thought the scenarios was. I haven't reviewed any more scenarios, thinking my opinion is not what the designers wants anyway.

Ok, this became more than I thought I'd write, NOW I regret wasteing my time writing this, as I know people tend to not see my posts... Oh well, life goes on.

BEFORE CLICKING "Add Reply": Curses to my slow typing/thinking, now a bunch of people have posted in the thread and I'm sure they've made all my points moot and/or stupid.