jwxspoon Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Geez Michael pretty strongly worded post. The guy did not intend to upset anyone, merely perform an organizational service. The fact that he did not get permission is at issue here. Some 8 months ago at another website I was putting together a listing of my recommendations for scenario play and emailed you to ask if I could add one of your scenarios to my list. You responded in the affirmative and requested credit be given for the scenario, which of course I complied with. There was no problem. I cannot help thinking that you would have done the same thing with El Cid had he simply asked ahead of time, would you not? Probably not worth getting so upset about, IMO. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by jwxspoon: Geez Michael pretty strongly worded post. The guy did not intend to upset anyone, merely perform an organizational service. The fact that he did not get permission is at issue here. Some 8 months ago at another website I was putting together a listing of my recommendations for scenario play and emailed you to ask if I could add one of your scenarios to my list. You responded in the affirmative and requested credit be given for the scenario, which of course I complied with. There was no problem. I cannot help thinking that you would have done the same thing with El Cid had he simply asked ahead of time, would you not? Probably not worth getting so upset about, IMO. jwWell, I probably came across as more upset than I am. It just bothers me that the simple courtesy of asking in advance is seen as some sort of character flaw on the part of scenario designers. As you point out, most CMers are pretty generous with their time and their talent, if treated with the tiniest bit of respect. The ones who complained the most seem to be the ones who have not designed anything on their own. Anyway, jwxspoon, you are right, we don't need to get hot and bothered about it, and you are right to take me to task for my tone. I could go back and edit it, but that's hardly cricket either. Either way, I'm happy to let it rest, unless any further character assassination rears its head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid_Cagi Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Well then you have no idea what you are talking about. Given that 700+ people can download a scenario and only three will be bothered to review it at the Depot - the download stats present the only other hard suggestion of popularity. Your packs effectively kill that type of feedback. My suggestion to you is to find something you are good at, that requires independent thought and a scrap of talent, and go for it. Packaging up the work of others is just riding on other people's coattails. It certainly didn't require any talent, just time. And don't try and kid us into believing your vaunted "dollar sign" is some sort of service to the community, it's simply your way of putting your personal imprint on this "service." ... You say you emailed people, but did it occur to you to post here in the forum beforehand? You certainly trumpeted the creation of these packs after the fact in a hurry.You're losing the point by far, apart from being offensive and there's no need to be so. I've removed the packs, and offered my apologies As I've said before, we will never agree about this issue. After reading your last messages, I don't have the interest to agree with you about anything. Bye, Mr. Dorosh, keep feeling happy with your 700+ downloads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by El Cid_Cagi: I had contacted Boots&Tracks about the so-called "Stalingrad Chrono pack", for example. An e-mail was sent to Kevin and CC to CapitalistDogInChina (a former and fond playmate ). Terry gently answered me for a salute, but Kevin did not say nothing (the Chrono pack are simply the scenarios renamed to be playable in the described chronological order. The readme includes all the debited credit, the website link and an invitation to visit the great B&T site...) But no answer yet (almost a month has passed)I assume these would be the scenarios from the Stalingrad Pack... so my question would be... Who did you contact at Der Kessel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potvin Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Hmmm... See both sides of this issue. I've created four scenarios for the Scenario Depot - two CMBO ("Terror by the Rhone", "Sandig's SS...") and two CMBB ("Action at Manutchskaya" & "Ghosts of Radziechow," which BTW is my favorite, but only has one review) - and I don't care who plays them. At the same time, one of the reasons - big reason - I have not created any more scenarios is that I don't feel the "love." Like Mikey D. wrote, 600+ people download your scenario and a couple people review it. A designer puts in hours and hours to create a scenario, test it, retest it, tweet it, and then test it again. And, at present, there is little useful feedback, and - more importantly - rarely ever a "thank you" for the effort. Truthfully, appreciation is the only currency we designers crave. I wish that all those who utilized the depot would make a pledge to review every single scenario they downloaded AND played. It is a small price for the designer's efforts. And, if you find it such a big chore to write a long review, then keep it short and only rate the scenario (1-10) in the PBEM and/or vs. AI categories. (If you played Head-to-head, get your opponent to rate the scenario too.) -Potvin (AKA Atlas_TH) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potvin Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Hmmm... Double post. -Potvin (AKA Atlas_TH) [ January 07, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Potvin ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Potvin: Hmmm... See both sides of this issue. I've created four scenarios for the Scenario Depot - two CMBO ("Terror by the Rhone", "Sandig's SS...") and two CMBB ("Action at Manutchskaya" & "Ghosts of Radziechow," which BTW is my favorite, but only has one review) - and I don't care who plays them. At the same time, one of the reasons - big reason - I have not created any more scenarios is that I don't feel the "love." Like Mikey D. wrote, 600+ people download your scenario and a couple people review it. A designer puts in hours and hours to create a scenario, test it, retest it, tweet it, and then test it again. And, at present, there is little useful feedback, and - more importantly - rarely ever a "thank you" for the effort. Truthfully, appreciation is the only currency we designers crave. I wish that all those who utilized the depot would make a pledge to review every single scenario they downloaded AND played. It is a small price for the designer's efforts. And, if you find it such a big chore to write a long review, then keep it short and only rate the scenario (1-10) in the PBEM and/or vs. AI categories. (If you played Head-to-head, get your opponent to rate the scenario too.) -Potvin (AKA Atlas_TH)Interesting point of view... never thought of it like that. Let me ask you... who do you design scenarios for? I ask, because I always know my target audience... me. Every scenario i have ever made has been designed for my enjoyment... they are scenarios I would want to play. If others like them, cool. If they don't, cool. For every scenario of mine that goes public, there are three that even playtesters don't see. If I don't like it, it goes no further... even if I suspect that it would be wildly popular. Design what you like and let the cards fall as they may Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Franko: I mean, I just want to avoid being part of a "Scenarios That Suck" pack.No fear. Your scenarios cant suck, everyone knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid_Cagi Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: I assume these would be the scenarios from the Stalingrad Pack... so my question would be... Who did you contact at Der Kessel?I did not contact anyone from Der Kessel, since the link at The Depot brings you to B&T, and there is where people will go to get the pack from the Depot. I didn't think at that moment about the joint effort B&T-Kessel, apart from the fact that I have met Terry "CDIC" before, so I send the e-mail from the page referred at the Depot. Sorry for not thinking in Der Kessel at that time Furthermore, the Chrono-Pack was actually the "SP Lite" pack, but with the scenarios renamed in the intended chronological order, as a kind of campaign mode (example SP01-Into the Void, SP02-When Worlds Collide, etc.; so they will be showing in the scenario selection screen) and what I offered is either to send them the pack or hosting it from my site. No scenarios where added or removed And in any case, there's no "chrono-pack" anymore (apart from my HD; it's the "campaign" I'm curently playing in solitaire), so why do you ask? I'm sorry for not having though in Der Kessel as another place to ask. In any case, I've had enough of this. I will contact the forum webmaster in order to resign from my membership to this forum. I was not as older as a member like you, Dan, but fairly enough PS: It's not for your message, hope it's evident . Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Smallwood Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 If a person is required to *explain* their reasons for exercising a right, it is no longer a right. No scenario designer should ever have felt the need to explain their reasons for not wanting their labors in a pack, much less refuse such a thing post facto when consent had not been requested... But to see an SD list his reasons, repeatedly, reasons which are completely valid, no less, and *still* be "debated"... it really is a bit much. OP seems to have had good intentions, and... that's good! But good intentions do not excuse trespass, they are just good intentions. And absolutely no "opinion" on a property owner's exercising his right, or the reasons for it, is even remotely relevant. Nor even polite, imho. Eden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoopenfaust2 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Uh oh Some egos have been bruised here. People this is a video game and nothing more. If you want to call yourself an "artist" go ahead but you guys are living in some computer nerd fantasy world. You are not artists, you might be good at spending 20 hours in front of a computer clicking on your mouse, but you are not "artists" ( Unless you are Gordon Molek) All people want to do is have some fun with a game they bought and helping other people have just as much fun. But egos should not get in the way. If you feel like you've been robbed of something intellectual ( a digital map) don't worry... everything will be o.k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Hoopenfaust 101: LOL! Better watch out. You'll have a bunch of ego-bruised mouse-wielding geek "artists" after you now. Best to retract and lie low for a while.... Sometimes this forum makes what went down in Bosnia look like a tea party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoopenfaust2 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: Hoopenfaust 101: LOL! Better watch out. You'll have a bunch of ego-bruised mouse-wielding geek "artists" after you now. Best to retract and lie low for a while.... Sometimes this forum makes what went down in Bosnia look like a tea party. Sure I don't mind. This forum use to have a great attitude but lately is been going downhill. Maybe it'll be wake up call for some people. I understand the amount of hard work people put into things like scenarios for a video game but claiming "rights" and infringements is a little over board if you ask me. The spanish doctor should have asked permission before he posted all those scenarios but to jump on his back like some people did. I'm just pissed at the fact that some people have created these computer nerd egos behind their glowing monitors. What some people believe about themselves in "their" world is pretty amusing to me. This post will get locked up shortly and maybe people will calm down and have some fun with this great game. Mastergoodale and Parabellum are doing more for the community than bitching about intellectual property. Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I think if the Scenario Depot was designed better this controversy would never have happened. I mean, would it not make sense to be able to easily download multiple scenarios in various categories? [ January 06, 2003, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: UberFunBunny ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoopenfaust2 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Those QB map packs are the greatest. Old Dog was a smart man for doing those. Labeled the maps so we could choose them to our liking. Now Old Dog is an "artist" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 If peace could be brought to Bosnia then there could be hope for this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101: Uh oh Some egos have been bruised here. People this is a video game and nothing more. If you want to call yourself an "artist" go ahead but you guys are living in some computer nerd fantasy world. You are not artists, you might be good at spending 20 hours in front of a computer clicking on your mouse, but you are not "artists" ( Unless you are Gordon Molek) All people want to do is have some fun with a game they bought and helping other people have just as much fun. But egos should not get in the way. If you feel like you've been robbed of something intellectual ( a digital map) don't worry... everything will be o.k. El Cid essentially violated a community convention--asking permission before reposting something. Some people called him out on this. A few of them might have gone a bit overboard. As for scenario designers not being artists, I must say you are full of ****. If it is so easy, put your money where your mouth is--spend 20 hours in front of the computer clicking on your mouse and make a quality battle. Then see how you feel as your work is distributed through channels you neither know of nor approve of without your knowlege and consent. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the treats that many like myself have given to you all freely, only asking for a little common courtesy. There are also other sorts of artists. The nice folks who make very well developed fansites, like the depot, freely and of thier own accord. I happen to do a bit of web design myself, and I must say that making some kind of searchable site with dynamic, multiple-file download features is very, very difficult. It is not on the short list of technologies which I would develop for free, in my own time. UFD, if you think it is so easy, why dont you buy some webspace and spend the next 3 months getting friendly with PHP & MySQL? WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Keth Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: I think if the Scenario Depot was designed better this controversy would never have happened. I mean, would it not make sense to be able to easily download multiple scenarios in various categories?OK, I'll bite...designed better how? What is it that you don't like? Cumbersome how? Using PHP/MySQL, can you provide me with the code you would like me to use in order to achieve this vision of perfection? The ENTIRE point behind the way it is designed is so that you HAVE to download each scenario seperately, so that you learn something about it, so that you read some of the reviews...and maybe come back to contribute a worthwhile opinion about the scenario after you play it. Each author gets appropriate credit on each and every scenario. I get emails daily asking for all of the scenarios in a zip file. I couldn't do it 1.5 years ago and I'm not going to do it now...and neither should anyone else. Otherwise what's the point of me maintaining The Scenario Depot? Guys, we have been through this a couple times before. The reason for The Scenario Depot's existence is due to the fact that I did something pretty much identical about 1.5 years ago. I got labasted by just about everyone here when I created the ScenarioMegaPack. The rules laid down by the authors themselves was that: 1) I had to get authorial permission prior to redistribution. I went through EVERYONE and got explicit permission. 2) Each author gets explicit credit for each scenario they create. Authors could either have me host the file directly, or I would provide a link to their site. 3) Each author gets player reviews so that they can make better scenarios in the future. Can anyone remember what it was like prior to The Scenario Depot? Scenarios spread all over the internet, sometimes becoming lost as each author became tired of maintaining their personal site and let their subscription lapse. Hundreds of scenarios have been spared from obscurity. Sure The Scenario Depot isn't perfect...the rating system isn't perfect...navigation isn't perfect. I can't spend 8 hours per day coding for it. So someone design a better, more durable repository for 1385 battles, 129 operations, 120 maps, 2894 reviews, and 60 AAR's. I'll turn it all over to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 wwb_99: making some kind of searchable site with dynamic, multiple-file download features is very, very difficult Like all things this depends on ability. spend the next 3 months getting friendly with PHP & MySQLIf you were referring to me, why would I do that when I use both extensively? And you saying that Hoopenfaust 101 is "full of sh*t", doesn't this kind of enhance his position that the CMBB forum has gone downhill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Design is art. It's art by virtually any definition. And yes, it is protected by copyright law. Whether you like this or not is totally irrelevant but you do come off sounding rather ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 The ENTIRE point behind the way it is designed is so that you HAVE to download each scenario seperately, If that is the ENTIRE point, then you are beyond help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Hoopenfaust 101: Uh oh Some egos have been bruised here. People this is a video game and nothing more. If you want to call yourself an "artist" go ahead but you guys are living in some computer nerd fantasy world. You are not artists, you might be good at spending 20 hours in front of a computer clicking on your mouse, but you are not "artists" ( Unless you are Gordon Molek) All people want to do is have some fun with a game they bought and helping other people have just as much fun. But egos should not get in the way. If you feel like you've been robbed of something intellectual ( a digital map) don't worry... everything will be o.k. Personally, I applaud the intent of the packs, but as many other scenario authors, I prefer to be asked. It is the polite thing to do. What's so hard to see in that? Oh, and thank you for sharing your narrow minded view of art with us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: wwb_99: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> making some kind of searchable site with dynamic, multiple-file download features is very, very difficult Like all things this depends on ability. spend the next 3 months getting friendly with PHP & MySQLIf you were referring to me, why would I do that when I use both extensively? And you saying that Hoopenfaust 101 is "full of sh*t", doesn't this kind of enhance his position that the CMBB forum has gone downhill?</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I'm sorry to see El Cid get blasted over this. He has a good idea, just poorly executed. I remember well how Admiral Keth got blasted... I was involved in the blasting But, that is how the Scenario Depot was born. I am getting seriously annoyed with the attacks on the designers who want to choose how their scenarios are distributed. Funny how those doing the attacking aren't doing the designing. I'm getting downright pissed off at the attacks on the Scenario Depot and Admiral Keth. The Scenario Depot isn't perfect, but it is one hell of a lot better than anything we've seen from any of the budding PHP wizards that are bitching about it. So, if you really think it can be done better, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 The ENTIRE point behind the way it is designed is so that you HAVE to download each scenario seperately, so that you learn something about it, so that you read some of the reviews...and maybe come back to contribute a worthwhile opinion about the scenario after you play it. I am intrigued with your rationale to hinder the potential search and automated download of categorized multiple scenarios. 1) Statistically, what is the current ratio of downloads to reviews posted? 2) Statistically, what is the current ratio of downloads to reviews read? 3) With your explanation linking the importance of reviews to the single download, what is your statistical proof that people actually read a review and then download a single scenario and then post a review? 4) Do you think it impossible for a person to download, say, a pack of 5 "highly-rated, short, tcp/ip" scenarios as a multiple download and THEN review each one? 5) Or, simply put, what in God's name does the single download have to do with reviews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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