Is CM:BB still worth it?

[GenSplatton]

I had CM burn out and never purchased CM:BB. Since my return from my latest deployment, I have started playing some CM:BO again. Actually that's not true. I started a few PBEM games while deployed (sanity check and all that). I've seen some comments here and there about how folks though CM:BO was more fun. I realize that may be a vocal minority though. I'm thinking about buying the game, but am wondering if I should.

First off, is it more or less fun than CM:BO? Or is it just "different" fun? Is it to late in the game to get my money's worth since another CM is being developed? Or will I still be able to get enough PBEM games for it to be worth it? Or should I just wait for the next iteration?

I'd appreciate all honest responses I can get on this. If you are worried about posting a negative opinion on this site, feel free to email me. I don't want anyone to ruffle any feathers. Here's my addy: loketar@comcast.net

Thanks in advance...

p.s. Yes this will appear in the CM:BO forum too just so I hit up everyone...

[Hans]

Welcome back

Yes get CMBB, I was a complete CMBO addict, had to have at least one QB a day and was running 4-6 PBEM. Once I played CMBB I stopped cold on CMBO and never touched it again

Move up from Hash to Heroin--enjoy the ride

[sgtabell]

I just recently went back and played a CMBO game with a person who was new to the game, (and he was very good, better than he gave himself credit for..)

It helped me see the differences.

CMBO, the units aren't as "smart" on their own. AI is way better in CMBB.

CMBO AI actions are more predictable, but will do weird things. CMBB, may at first seem unrealistic, but after knowing what it was they are doing, it is usually the right thing to do.

First, as an American, I love looking at the American Units, it was just a "feel" thing, in which I felt removed from the game by not having American or British units,,,just personal preference.

CMBO gives bad habits about some things. For example, I love how quickly units in open ground are suppressed, however, what should have been added is something akin to uneven ground, which would allow approach over open terrain at a slow rate, using a sneak like command that isn't exhausting. However, that said, I haven't tried to sneak anything across open ground in the game so not sure how accurate I am.

Borg spotting just plain old sucks, and hurts the Germans. Their fine optics do come into play, however, once the unit is viewed, and fired upon, the sheer volume of fire, if you are not keyholed is enough to take out the lightly armored long range German guns. Scoot and Shoot command, (like CMBO hunt and reverse, but with more viewing time), would be better if there was more memory to the unit about what it is firing on, when they come back up, however this is true for both sides. Basically, the borg spotting needs to be a adjusted to some degree, (based on being out of command/location to original firing unit, moral, exp. and all that)

However, the biggest piece of improvement is pure realism. That is my love of CMBB, (screw the arcade lovers).

My first recommendation is to play CMBO, by using the rules where you can only go from unit to unit using the + key, (I forget the name of the person who created the rule set), but basically, you can only use the unit's point of view, and optics ability to play the game. (A must in the next game engine which will take the game over the top). Then, do the same with the CMBB demo, and you will see the difference in the game.

I don't like big open steppe areas, and having to always look for slight depressions over long opens spaces, it's boring and hard on the eyes, so some of the scenarios where there is little trees and cover which has to be discerned can get a bit old.

It is well worth the buy due to improved game play in a realistic sense.

I am still learning and learning playing CMBB but loving it. I am rambling due to post lunch sleepiness, hope this helps.

SgtAbell

[-Havermeyer-]

Welcome back, GenSplatt. Be nice to get you back into the BoB...

Anywho. I play both still.

I'm playing CMBB very poorly right now, and I can't say I'm enjoying it as much as I was when winning in CMBO. But given time (and unlearning CMBO skills) I'll probably enjoy it much more than CMBO. It looks fantastic out of the box and the penetration modeling and AFV death clock make CMBB a MUCH better game.

As to getting some CMBB PBEM games in prior to CMAK, that's up to you and the amount of time you can play. No end to players (unless you're interested in only kicking Greywolf's tuckus).

[MikeyD]

Let's assume the worst and CMBB won't have as long legs as CMBO did.

$45 is about the price of 5 first-run movie tickets, which translates out to an absolute max of 10 hours of fun (and probably much less, considering the movies out there!)

For the same amount of money you've got Sturmtigers, Artillery bombardments, human wave attacks, Sturmovik fighters, BT fast tank platoons, German 128mm anti-tank guns on and on and on. And you've got a kazillion mods to pick and choose from and you can replace the entire Scenario package three times over (special mention of the Staligrad scenario pack is in order).

Okay. So you eventually grow tired of the game. But while it lasted it was more fun than seeing 5 crummy movies for the same money.

[ May 14, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[GenSplatton]

No end to players (unless you're interested in only kicking Greywolf's tuckus).

Oddly enough, he IS the email partner I mentioned. But as for kicking butt, I think you have the kicker and kickee confused. Greywolf is using me right now!

Thanks for the words everyone. More opinions welcome!

Oh, I meant to ask, what is the AFV death clock??? I tend to apply my own death clock (if I own an AFV, it's only a matter of time before it's death) but somehow I imagine you are speaking of something else.

[ May 14, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: GenSplatton ]

[_Axe_]

Instead of knowing you've KO'd that panzer at 800 yards right away, your crew will continue firing on it until they are "certain" it's out of commision -- ie. explosion, crew bailing out, etc.

Much more realistic in tank duels.

[Lars]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

For the same amount of money you've got Sturmtigers, Artillery bombardments, human wave attacks, Sturmovik fighters, BT fast tank platoons, German 128mm anti-tank guns on and on and on.

Mmm, Sturmtigers...

[LynnL53]

Why would anyone not get CMBB -- I keep telling my self i will go back and try CMBo but so far I keep starting up CMBB - really if you liked the first i see no reason not like the 2nd as it is more of the same and better of the same

[jdmorse]

For me one of the true differences is the Machine Guns.....they can RUN he he. I assume you saw some of the fun on that one. Seriously, the HMG's esp really come into their own. Those open spaces are not very hospitable with a couple of MG42's and interlocking fire.

CMBB plays slower than CMBB but imho is more realistic, a better simulation and a hell of alot more units and 'splody things

[lcm1947]

I need more info and is the reason for this bump. I too am a fence sitter and every time I think I'm going to buy it along comes somebody that points out a new feature of the game that turns me off. Example; While most people think that having the German HMG's modeled tougher and better ( improved ) in CMBB I think it would suck. I already think that they are over modelled in CMBO so would imagine I would hate them in CMBB. Now without trying to to pick a fight ( guess that's called trolling, remember this is my Opinion and I really believe it 100% ) I think the people that like the improved German HMG's are the players that normally only play or prefer playing the German's and I don't mean that occasionly play the Allied's when they have to or something. I can't imagine anyone that constantly plays the Allied's and I mean that prefers to only play them would think improving an already over modeled German HMG is a good thing. If I had a dime for everytime in CMBO that I encounted a German HMG that was able to hold out againt overwhelming odds actually prevail or that wiped out units that again were overwhelming I'd be rich. Actually this is the one factor that I feel is so wrong or screwed up in the game I love so much it just pisses me off. Well, that and how over modeled the German HQ units always seem to be but not nearly as bad as the HMG's. Goodness me, this was supposed to be just a bump and look what I did. Sorry can't help it. I get so ......upset when I think or talk about this subject. So bump.

[Marlow]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

I can't imagine anyone that constantly plays the Allied's and I mean that prefers to only play them would think improving an already over modeled German HMG is a good thing.

Not only German MGs, but Allied as well. Maxims kick ass. And the killing power hasn't been increased so much as the suppressing power.

[demoss]

I always thought MGs were useless in CMBO, and before CMBB came out, I looked forward to playing the Russians more than the Germans. The greatest thing about CMBB, though, is the wider coverage - CMBO only covers a little less than one year of the war, while CMBB is almost four. So you get to see essentially all stages of equipment development instead of just the final stage, which makes for a much wider variety = better replayability.

[Marlow]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Well, that and how over modeled the German HQ units always seem to be but not nearly as bad as the HMG's.

If you think they were bad, wait until you run into a Russian SMG platoon HQ in the middle of the woods.

[PickleHead]

stop poncing about and buy them all,what the hell else you gonna do,eh?

i loved cmbo,i love cmbb and im sure ill love cmak.

stop dithering and shell out the puny 45 bucks,,,games down here cost a hundred bucks,,,,,so your in front already

[Andreas]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

I think the people that like the improved German HMG's are the players that normally only play or prefer playing the German's and I don't mean that occasionly play the Allied's when they have to or something. I can't imagine anyone that constantly plays the Allied's and I mean that prefers to only play them would think improving an already over modeled German HMG is a good thing.

I mostly play Allies (75-90% of the time), and I think it is great.

[GenSplatton]

Thanks all. After reading the responses in this and the BO forum, I am firmly entrenched on the fence. Argh.

[MikeyD]

My advice, if you're going to hate it (for some wierd reason) you're going to hate it. But you've got to buy it first in order to hate it, so take the plunge. What are you saving your money for, that overly-expensive maroon turtleneck at the Gap?

By the way, has anyone mentioned the "Pure Armor" Quickbattle option yet?

[ May 16, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[CombinedArms]

I'm with MikeyD here. Ultimately, you'll never know till you try it. But this board contains many satisfied customers who can't wait to buy CMAK. And CMBB won a whole slew of awards and got rave reviews worldwide. So how bad can it really be?

BTW, as mentioned above, it's not just German HMGs that are tough. Maxims will put the Axis troops faces in the dirt, and they're cheap and plentiful. Also, you get an exact count of your kills at the end of a battle. It's nice to know your arty had 50 kills instead of the zero usually reported in CMBO. When you look at your MG kills, they'll often show only one or two, even when they've been firing all day. Their real role is suppression. But you can supress them back with fire from your own MGs or tanks, arty, onboard guns, mortars, etc. They're not an insuperable obstacle to the attacker, just another problem to solve.

And do you really want to go through life without ever having driven a T34?

[edgars]

I personally don't intend to by CMAK.

Simply i'm not interested in endless desert maps and in theatre as such.

That means you will have at least one guy to play CMBB PBEMs with until the next engine comes out.

[Sergei]

A little specialty for making comparisons between CMBO and CMBB: The Legendary Wild Bill Wilder's scenario Villers-Bocage - Tiger! has now been converted into CM:BB with the kind permission of the author.

You can get it from The Scenario Depot, of course.

[Marlow]

Originally posted by edgars:

I personally don't intend to by CMAK.

Simply i'm not interested in endless desert maps and in theatre as such.

It has much more than the desert. From BFC's anouncement:

"Combat Mission: Afrika Korps (CMAK) moves the focus to three new regions of conflict.

North Africa from 1940-43

Italy (including Sicily) from 1943-45

Crete in 1941"

This means that we will have 1) non-desert terrain (italy), and most of the 1944-45 orders of battle for US, UK, and German. End result: Most of Western Europe after Normandy will be possible. This is almost a retrofit for CMBO plus North Africa.

[Nippy]

I can't imagine anyone that constantly plays the Allied's and I mean that prefers to only play them would think improving an already over modeled German HMG is a good thing. If I had a dime for everytime in CMBO that I encounted a German HMG that was able to hold out againt overwhelming odds actually prevail or that wiped out units that again were overwhelming I'd be rich.

And if I had a nickle for each time a machinegun was mobbed by a few rifle platoons and killed I could pay off the national debt. I remember once in CM:BO there was a historic battle that made note of a brave .50 gunner who killed +20 germans. So I boot up the battle and a few turns into it 2 german rifle squads walk right over the damn thing like it wasn't even there.

I had this argument in the "Will CMAK bring back the fun!?" thread and I preformed a simple test. I converted the CMBB battle "The Bridge heads" into CMBO. Both the map and unit count was copied almost perfectly. I played both battles from the German side VS the AI and came up with this:

CMBB: Total Victory - Almost 150 kills and one MG34 ending up with 40+ kills.

CMBO: Major Defeat - both MG combined had less than 10 kills and the attacker lost about 30 men.

Test-2 Bunker Rush. One company of Allied riflemen rush 200m of open terrain while being fired on by 3 Elite German wooden bunkers.

CMBB - 135 of 150 dead. Soviets surrender. No one even got close.

CMBO - 40 of 150 dead. All bunkers destroyed. Axis surrender. Bunkers were swarmed by US infantry.

[MikeyD]

Hey, you could've complained because CMBB was modeled too closely on CMBO, instead you complain because it's not modeled the same! Okay, maybe mgs are more of a pain, but it's counter-balanced by the enemy artillery's inability to hit anything! In CMBO the artillery could chase you around the board as close as a buzzing mosquito.

Just last night I went for a classic, the CMBO demo 'Chance Encounter' converted over to CMBB (my version retains the 75mm gun Shermans as well). It plays VERY VERY different from CMBO, the CMBO player will have to unlearn a lot of gamey CMBO tricks, and expect the AI to control his armor more cleverly. Does that mean either CMBO or CMBB is 'broken'? No, it means they're DIFFERENT GAMES. You'll notice most scenario maps in CMBB are bigger, and on average you're alloted more time to achieve your objective. That's because CMBB is not the same as CMBO - nobody said it would be.

[GenSplatton]

I caved in and ordered it. Thanks all for the inputs.