My AIRCRAFT are downright treasonous!

[ww2steel]

Okay this is a bit of a rant, as I know nothing will be done about it until CMII comes out- hopefully.

I am really really tired of buying aircraft only to watch them attack my tanks/ infantry/ guns when there are enemy bunkers not 1000m away out in the open. Basically, unless my equipment is under trees the aircraft seem to go on a wild melee if enemy tanks/ vehicles/ occupied trenches are not in plain view. Do the pilots just get bored?

I am a professional pilot, I operate aircraft for hours every day. I think that the spotting by aircraft is more or less accurate- it would is very difficult to spot tanks on the ground unless they are in the middle of a field (I have tried personally several times with T-34/85s and M5 Stuarts from something as slow as a Cessna- still hard to spot). Once you spot them though, it's not that hard to tell what it is, and I sure wouldn't drop ordnance on an 'unidentified' vehicle! I agree with some mistaken identity, but it should be rare, especially for something as distinct as a tank. If I can tell the difference between a F-150 and a K-20 on takeoff with me as the flying pilot a PzIV/ T-34 should be no different. Friendly fire is arguably more prone to happen now due to the regular use of standoff weapons such as Mavericks, Hellfire, TOW, LGB, etc- not close in and personal like strafing and dive bombing.

Higher levels should be almost immune to friendly fire attacks, low levels (ie green) it should happen frequently.

See ya,

Mike

[Sergei]

It's a complicated issue. In CM you can't really do anything to direct the aircraft (like giving them order to bomb the area of a specific hill) or use flares, coloured smoke, flags or anything to signal that you're the good guys. As such, if only one side has tanks then that side has no use for CAS because the a/c are more likely to target friendly vehicles than enemy infantry - or so it seems to me. It's not a very accurate presentation of what CAS means. More of the type of thing that happened behind the lines, not AT the front line.

[flamingknives]

Plus, friendly fire was a serious occurance. In Tunisia, the US Army adopted (unofficially) a policy of;

"If it flies it dies"

due to the number of friendly fire air attacks.

[ww2steel]

That sucks- wasn't aware of that one from Africa! Man, it seems in Africa it should be even easier... but then again our pilots were very new at that time.

My main complaint was of a near refusal to bomb the enemy bunkers even when carrying heavy ordnance, and instead attacking my tanks.

About 50% of their ordnance was used on my positions.

Mike

[Sergei]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Plus, friendly fire was a serious occurance. In Tunisia, the US Army adopted (unofficially) a policy of;

"If it flies it dies"

due to the number of friendly fire air attacks.

But was that a problem with Combat Air Support or with fighter bombers patrolling and looking for easy targets (convoys)? It would strike me odd if bombers given the mission to attack say a hill covered by bunkers would instead attack friendly tanks firing at that hill.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Sergei:

But was that a problem with Combat Air Support or with fighter bombers patrolling and looking for easy targets (convoys)? It would strike me odd if bombers given the mission to attack say a hill covered by bunkers would instead attack friendly tanks firing at that hill.

It was my impression that the roving FB was how CM modelled CAS. We certainly don't have FACs with which to direct FBs onto targets.

[Sergei]

Maybe it does, but I don't think it's a very proper way for that. Or then it should be totally random, having nothing to do with QB force selections or such.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by ww2steel:

Okay this is a bit of a rant, as I know nothing will be done about it until CMII comes out- hopefully.

I am really really tired of buying aircraft only to watch them attack my tanks/ infantry/ guns when there are enemy bunkers not 1000m away out in the open. Basically, unless my equipment is under trees the aircraft seem to go on a wild melee if enemy tanks/ vehicles/ occupied trenches are not in plain view. Do the pilots just get bored?

I am a professional pilot, I operate aircraft for hours every day. I think that the spotting by aircraft is more or less accurate- it would is very difficult to spot tanks on the ground unless they are in the middle of a field (I have tried personally several times with T-34/85s and M5 Stuarts from something as slow as a Cessna- still hard to spot). Once you spot them though, it's not that hard to tell what it is, and I sure wouldn't drop ordnance on an 'unidentified' vehicle! I agree with some mistaken identity, but it should be rare, especially for something as distinct as a tank. If I can tell the difference between a F-150 and a K-20 on takeoff with me as the flying pilot a PzIV/ T-34 should be no different. Friendly fire is arguably more prone to happen now due to the regular use of standoff weapons such as Mavericks, Hellfire, TOW, LGB, etc- not close in and personal like strafing and dive bombing.

Higher levels should be almost immune to friendly fire attacks, low levels (ie green) it should happen frequently.

See ya,

Mike

I know this is going to sound strange but the higher the experience levels of the pilots the less Friendly Fire incidents you will have. Above veteran and they actually start to get rather good.

Hope this helps.

Panther Commander

[Big Jim]

How distant was your armour from the enemy MLR also? If you're on enemy turf, they might think that tank, reversing into battle(?), is a target of opportunity. For some reason.

Guess it depends how many squirrels were chasing it...

Bring on the FACs!

[dieseltaylor]

I am pleased to hear that the higher the level pilot the less FF problem. After all I have just taken my delivery of three crack Panther A's. Admittedly as a Russian player I expect some form of immunity : ) [they have killed 4 Stugs for no loss so far]

Of course captured equipment was used to by both sides .............

BTW where you under fire from the ground , or concerned about being bounced , when you were doing your flybys. I have a book on aerial recognition based on the US forces "magazine" printed in the war to lessen FF incidents. Identifying vehicles from the real life phots is not easy.

Also you refer to bunkers ... they of all things you would expect to be very well hidden against air observation.

[coldmeter]

[/qb]

[Joachim]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Plus, friendly fire was a serious occurance. In Tunisia, the US Army adopted (unofficially) a policy of;

"If it flies it dies"

due to the number of friendly fire air attacks.

I want that in CM!

Gruß

Joachim

[flamingknives]

Aircraft can be very nice, especially when you are defending.

A few CMAK anecdotes:

I had a regular and cheap Spitfire MkV{something} carrying two 250lb bombs and 4 strafes worth of ammo for cannon and machine guns. It destroyed one Panther A and immobilised a PzIII, plus did unknown damage to infantry.

Othe games where airsupport has cropped up, it's usually hit something behind a hill and scragged it before it could do anything to my forces.

In CMBB

I've played a few scenarios with airpower and it's typically fairly devastating to the enemy, provided that it crops up when there is suitable separation between the two sides.

[Alkiviadis]

If one is locked in close combat it can get very ugly with plenty of friendly fire casualties. Had it happen to an opponent in "CSDT b14(?) Eisen Faust". Heavy forest fighting - had one of his platoons nailed by his own Stukas. During fighting in NW Europe in WW2 the American Army called the 9th TacAir the 9th "Luftwaffe" - due to many unfortunate friendly fire incidents.

[ww2steel]

No, not being fired at or worried about being 'bounced', then again, neither were my aircraft in the game- but I was just as busy with after takeoff checks and departure instructions of a large turbine aircraft operating at below 1,000' AGL and certainly not concentrating outside like a combat pilot can and should.

There were five conrete bunkers, on a slight rise, several hundred meters from and structures or cover of any kind. My tanks and all equipment were still all inside my deployment area waiting for 'help' from the Luftwaffe- about 500+ meters from the enemy on a tiny map... and I assume that has something to do with it but darn it it was frustrating.

Thanks for the Elite/ Veteran tip- and yes, they're usually pretty expensive and I always play <1000 point ops, so maybe aircraft are not justifiable at that level- it sure seems so. If I do get them in the future I'll buy pilots that have at least private pilot skills

Mike

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Sergei:

But was that a problem with Combat Air Support or with fighter bombers patrolling and looking for easy targets (convoys)? It would strike me odd if bombers given the mission to attack say a hill covered by bunkers would instead attack friendly tanks firing at that hill.

I have read of one instance in Italy, where a British infantry attack was planned to go ahead after a scheduled FB mission (arranged over night, so the pilots should have been able to look at a map in the time they had).

The FBs showed up, machine-gunned the British infantry and left. The attack proceeded successfully after this semi-comical interlude.

[Sergei]

I bet you just took a day off from work to browse through all the libraries in the vicinity JUST to find a quote which refutes my claim! Well, that still seems strange to me, but it must have happened. Did pilots take "go-pills" in WW2?

[Andreas]

The German pilots did, if you mean Pervitin. Not sure about the Allies, but my guess would be 'yes'.

[Alkiviadis]

Allied pilots did. They still do in the USAF. I have a friend who is an ex-USN carrier pilot who says the USN prohibits speed as they feel it clouds judgement

[Big Jim]

Tests designed to catch drug drivers involve monitoring response times of an individual- if they're too fast, then they must be on something.

No doubt reactions are faster, but I agree with the cloud judgement principle of the USN- if you can't drive a car at 40mph on these things, how can you fly at 400mph and blow things up!?

Lost a Tiger in my last game to enemy FB hitting it square on with a 1100Ib bomb. My air support then preceded to turn up late and strafe already 'knocked out' tanks for a few passes, then head back to the airfield. And who says pilots overinflate their claims?

[Grisha]

Another reason for stimulants among pilots is the same reason they preferred/prefer pilots with high BP: G forces. You have high BP and take a high G turn you're less likely to black out.

But I digress

[ww2steel]

What the heck!?! I just played a city mission as Germans moving through a city. I had nine half tracks and ALL of them were destroyed by my own aircraft!!!! All crews were crack/ elite oth on gorund and in aircraft!

This is stupid! I am never, ever, ever, ever... going to use aircraft... again.

[Falcon988]

You know I don't think I've ever had much trouble with my own air support. Maybe I'm just lucky. The only friendly fire incident I can remember occurred during the CMBB operation "Blitzkrieg" during which a Stuka dropped a 500 pounder in a forest where several of my troops were concentrated. Thankfully it landed on the outskirts so casualties, while still heavy, were not as catastrophic as it may have been. But other than that that's it. My air support has always either been very helpful, non-existant, or was chased off by flak.

[George MC]

Just played a scenario set during the battle of Kursk. I was doing well until my Luftwaffe air support showed up and promptly shot up my advancing victorious panzers. Just after I dried my eyes the Soviets showed up and took out all my waiting Pzgrends in their h/ts with accompanying stug sitting waiting in a balka to mop up what was left of the soviet infantry.

In thei first case my tanks were in the Soviet battle lines - whilst the last one was just plain sloppiness on my part with everything just a tad close. Whatever atacked them dropped a rake of armaments - the screenshot is very pretty with all the oranges and reds!

[Bertram]

This was one thing I hoped was a bit redesigned from CMBB to CMAK.

Imagine my disappointment when I started the CMAK demo as Allied, and in the very first minute some bloody plane (Allied according to the briefing) killed two of my tanks, that hadn't even got time to start moving.

Bertram