General Jack Ripper Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Good! I can't wait to see more, I love reading AAR's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Tux, Take pity on us, I beg you! An entire 3-day holiday weekend with no turn! Who takes school exams over the weekend? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Originally posted by John Kettler: SLIM, ... Also, I recently saw a Panther vid on breaching Kursk style defenses (below) on YouTube U.K. As you can see starting at ~8:30, the Panther crew gets pretty excited over a Molotov cocktail's detonating on the engine compartment. This being the case, what happens when the tank is basically a sheet of flame? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W8c_Tbr_fXQ Regards, John Kettler While waiting for the next turns, I might ignite sumfink with the hint that the flic above is a German training movie. The crew is not excited but play the usual movie stuff - some freak out when facing danger but some cool dude remains cool and restores the situation. Given the range of FTs - including those in vehicles - I doubt they were intended as AT wpns. Reading about them a week ago it appeared that British wasps mostly had a psychological effect. PzIII Flamms originally intended to help 6. Army in Stalingrad were so "successful" they got their guns back after Kursk - a whopping 2-3 months after their late debut. It is interesting to note that American FT tanks were mainly used in the PTO - where they encountered few enemy tanks and weak AT weapons. The Brits had a heavily armored CS tank with a flame thrower but most vehicle based flamers were wasps (ie universal carriers). The Soviets had the FT replace an MG but left the main gun in the OT34 types. Read: The FT replaced an AP weapon. The Germans had the PzIII for a short while but otherwise used an obsolete chassis (PzII) - or the HT based variant. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 29, 2008 Share Posted May 29, 2008 Joachim, The point is this: Since it is a training movie, it logically follows that if the Molotov cocktail's detonating on the engine deck was of no consequence, there would've been no segment devoted to it. Since there is, it logically follows that the matter was one of real concern, and hence was precisely covered in terms of what the crew should do--should this happen in the field in combat. I never said that a flamethrower was a primary antitank weapon, in either manportable or AFV mounted form. Rather, I argued from first principles and technical capabilities that it could kill tanks, to which JasonC categorically replied that no tanks were killed by flamethrowers of any sort during WW II, a position refuted by undead reindeer cavalry's stunning post. Oh, if flame weapon effects were "mostly psychological," why is it so few crews survived capture, as opposed to the many gun tank crews taken prisoner? Don't believe me? Watch this. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted May 29, 2008 Share Posted May 29, 2008 That is a great video, especially the scene where they are firing a good 50m across a canal. But the fact that it is "mostly psychological" is not contradicted by the fact that the enemy got so worked up about it that they shot the crews. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardem Posted May 29, 2008 Share Posted May 29, 2008 Interesting another piece of evidence with tanks collapsing trenches on overrunning infantry positions. And in a training video of all things. Training videos although propoganda for tank crews still show methods it considered a viable options in combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted May 29, 2008 Author Share Posted May 29, 2008 Originally posted by John Kettler: Tux, Take pity on us, I beg you! An entire 3-day holiday weekend with no turn! Who takes school exams over the weekend? Regards, John Kettler All in good time. I'm glad I have this thread to refer to - it's acting like a combat journal. Otherwise I fear I may have forgotten what's going on by now! By all means discuss the merits of flame throwers meanwhile, it's interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted May 29, 2008 Share Posted May 29, 2008 Guess then we all say the same, just at slightly different levels: JasonC: Even a pair of bolt cutters can kill a tank, so FTs can do, too. But not that effective. JohnK: Molotovs and FTs can kill tanks, but FTs are no primary AT wpns. Me: Even toothpics can kill tanks, if handled by the notorious UberFinns. But main usage of FT is AP (including bunkers). IIRC one of your recent links even mentioned a T34 surviving one of its (outer?) fuel tanks getting hit and igniting the rear deck. It is not the deadliness of a weapon that influences crew survival. It is the kind of death it deals. Burning alive is horror to many of us, and so we tend to retaliate to such an inhumane act. Guess that's why FTs got banned long ago. Regarding CM: IIRC I read an AAR in a MP-campaign where a 251/16 torched a T34m44 in a battle. Viz about 80m. But then... in similar viz there were Soviet sappers and THs killing tanks. All tanks were without close inf support. So Tux might stand a chance with his PzIII flamm. But for the same campaign I had an order ready to destroy houses before using them as cover. Igniting forward houses pre-battle to create permanent LOS blocks. Taking to the woods if necessary, but avoiding to defend "unprepared" CM villages. The reason for this was always massive direct HE before the attack came in. So Juste is pretty much doing SOP when flattening houses. IMHO setting up in them where they can receive direct HE was not a good idea... but it would be a shame to have no forward OPs, too. So you've gotta die one way or another. Once the flamers are id'd as such and the moment of surprise is gone, I suggest walls of fire to block approach routes, block LOS and make some cover useless. Which brings us back on topic. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Joachim, I grant your argument--up to a point. Most people also have a dread of being cut, but we don't find the kinds of acts carried out against flamethrower operators being carried out on anyone found with a bayonet. It's weird, in that flame weapons are seen as "unsporting," but it's perfectly okay to burn down whole cities with incendiaries, drive over people with tanks, chop them to pieces with MG fire and blow them to shreds with HE. Also, I disagree as to your characterization of JasonC's position. He dragged out the shooting the tank driver incident after undead reindeer cavalry made his stunning post, and I believe it was in an effort to make us forget what he'd said before. In essence, JasonC, was pooh-poohing URC's discoveries by trying to minimize them in the most effective, most belittling way he could. Great story and all that, but I know outright evasion when I run into it. I shall be most interested to see what Tux is able to do with his Flammpanzer IIIs. Your battle plan might've been considered gamey by many during ROW, but it would've depended on how you executed it. Certainly, large scale building burning for area denial would've generated howls to the tournament director, especially since the game didn't model the very real factor of fire spread. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 John, I analyse Jason's posts regarding the data in them, not his behaviour. In WW1 owners of bayonets with sawtooth faced death when caught by the other side: A bayonet kills and wounds, but a saw inflicts much worse wounds. My battle plan is gamey. But I had reasons for that. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Tux, (knocks on computer screen) Are you there? (begins E-mail) "Dear Zeta Reticulans, if you have by any chance carried off Tux and or Juste, please return them to Earth. Thanks! John" Where, oh where is the next installment in the epic saga of the Russian Front? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted June 5, 2008 Author Share Posted June 5, 2008 Patience, my friend. I have been promised a turn within the next day or so. It'll take me longer than usual to issue my orders because I'll need to refamiliarise myself with the situation, but I should be able to post a bried update before long. Either way it's the next minute's action we're all really looking forward to, and that's two email exchanges away! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Tux, We're one day shy of another week's having passed, yet there seems still to be no new turn in evidence. Did Juste not deliver as promised, or are we awaiting the results of your game familiarization and downstream cogitation processes? Dying to see what happens next! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinrich505 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 JohnK I second that. The wait is aaaaagonizing. Heinrich505 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted June 12, 2008 Author Share Posted June 12, 2008 I'll bother him again now for a file, but basically I'm still waiting. Sorry for the delay. As I'm sure you'll appreciate, I'm as anxious to see the outcome of this fight as you are! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWittman Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Great AAR Tux. It reminds me of the Eisen-Faust AAR by Warhawk which was sadly never finished. I hope this one gets finished eventually! Oh yeah make sure you keep that Tiger alive mate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Tux, It's not your fault, but Juste is just about on my lump of coal for Christmas list. His dilatoriness rivals that of Fabius Cunctator's and John Belushi's in the famous SNL "Nah" skit combined. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 Lol. I'm sure he has his reasons. He's finished his work now, so hopefully I'll receive the file soon. I bothered him again for it ten minutes ago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leprechaun Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hello, anybody home 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 WOOHOO! The forums are back! Now I can go back to waiting! I missed being here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 I'd love to say that progress was made whilst the forums were down, folks, but I'm afraid it's not the case. I haven't heard from Juste in quite a while now, but I'll annoy him again in a few days' time. Either way I'm not going to be able to play a turn until I return home next Friday or Saturday, so no updates can be expected until then. Hope to continue this thread properly sometime soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Tux, Had already checked here before and was suitably crestfallen. I hope Juste and loved ones are okay, but if so, I fail to see why it should take what seems like an age to send back a turn. Meanwhile, color me terminally frustrated! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Tux, You must be a true Stoic. You're playing the guy, are deep into a hairy fight, and yet are far more philosophical about the to me incredible delay in getting a turn back from Juste than I am. Is he shipping in the Guinness World Record certification team to officially attest to his rapidly reaching record setting delay in getting one simple turn back? Frankly, I just don't get it. Unless he's got a very good explanation, he should also understand that people pay attention to such tendencies in prospective gaming foes. Seems to me that even if in it up to his eyeballs, a one line E-mail would be easy to do and would clear the air. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kineas Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Maybe it's just me, but this is a textbook-like dropout. Sure sign that you are winning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Kineas, That thought had occurred to me, too, but OTOH, the guy was supposedly deeply immersed in academics. I was therefore prepared to cut him significant slack, having been in that very predicament myself. To finish my degree, I took 30 semester units in 35 weeks while working full time in military aerospace. Barely had time for basic hygiene! I hope Juste returns to the fray so we can see how this one plays out, but I agree the trend line isn't looking good at all. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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