Not another AAR!? Tux Vs. Juste

[undead reindeer cavalry]

very entertaining AAR. great read

[John Kettler]

Tux,

Gasp! Wheeze! Turn report...must have turn report.

The suspense is killing me!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tux]

Here you go:

Turn 24

As the minute gets underway the SU-152 is spotted once again. Slowly, painfully, he rotates on the spot but does not retreat; he angles himself to point directly at my Tiger, and then stops... and waits.

After 15 seconds my SU-hunters move out. My Tiger is flanked by two StuGs in an attempt to overwhelm the SU, should it decide to stand and fight. The smoke that my buttoned StuG laid three+ minutes ago is still hanging around though, and it takes until the last few seconds of the minute to clear. As the smoke finally stops billowing out of the buried shells, it begins to fade and melt away into the prevailing fog. Suddenly, the SU becomes visible; motionless and determined to go out fighting. My HQ StuG still has a live commander, risking his neck for the spot, and he spies the SPG immediately. He shouts out its position and range, and the gunner takes his time lining up the shot. His finger is just tickling the trigger as the minute comes to a close.

Unfortunately, the lone StuG is the only AFV to have spotted the SU so far. During the next orders phase I am going to have to manually target the thing with my Tiger and, hopefully, my second StuG. I'm sure Juste will do the same and try and take out my Tiger before he dies, so next turn may well be decisive.

Elsewhere my troops in the trees along the road begin their job of 'sanitising' my AFVs' route between the forests. A Maxim and its attendant crew are spotted making for C along the edges of the trees opposite, and are mercilessly engaged:

I think I can confidently predict that they will not get there in any shape to disrupt my planned attack.

At C, two of the T-34s move into the town. They are either taking up an ambush position or they are planning an assault on B via a shallow ford.

At B all remains quiet. My FPz III has reversed a short way to remain out of LOS of the road and my remaining StuG has rotated to catch the first advancing tank flank on, if and when it appears. Thankfully, it is also in a prime position to interdict any armour attempting to ford the river towards B.

I can't wait for the next turn, lol.

[John Kettler]

Tux,

You and us both! Apparently, I'll just have to restrain the urge to bite my nails. Too late! Gone already!

Regards,

John Kettler

[DavidFields]

Not a whole lot of tactics in the turn coming up.

This is where one wants to digitalize oneself, get into the AFVs, and when the aiming is correct, yell "pull the trigger, PULL THE TRIGGER". My guess is that your opponent is staring at his SU-152 thinking exactly that.

I have no idea how this is going to turn out.............. If you survive, you will of course be in a very strong position, with his right flank being, in essence, broken, and you increasing your consolidation of the center.

[Tux]

Turn 25 has been played, and a roar of celebration sweeps through the german ranks as the word spreads: The SU is dead! In the opening second of the Turn, as the SU lined up a shot at my Tiger, my HQ StuG sent a shell crashing into a weak spot on the heavy SPG's front upper hull. The Tiger had time to narrowly miss its own shot before the crippled Soviet AFV was abandoned by its crew.

That was it. No fire, no fuss, just a very, very prompt abandonment by the surviving crew members and a slight sense of anti-climax.

The rest of the turn saw the HQ StuG and Tiger prepare to 'run the gauntlet' of the path between the forests on the way to C.

One of my platoons in the forest has been ordered to cross the gap and protect the two tanks' blind flank. They will also then be able to attack C from an extra angle, if required.

My fears regarding the two T-34s moving through C were justified. One of them has been spotted on the far side of the shallow ford towards the flank of my hamlet at B. Later in the minute the two old sound contacts were relocated moving towards B down the main road. With some careful Paintshop Pro manipulation I can show you the T-34, the two sound contacts and the areas within LOS of the StuG which is my only AT asset (apart from a green squad with a grenade bundle) at Hamlet B:

I still think B is reasonably secure, seeing as my StuG only has LOS to positions at point blank range, and so should be killing T-34s with every shot he takes. I still have a sniper positioned so as to button any enemy AFV well before they enter LOS of my tanks, and my FPz III isn't to be scoffed at when it can't be seen by any tank which is beyond the range of its flamethrower.

In any case I have pulled my 'blind' StuG at A back to a point on the main road in the middle of the Village. From there he can move very quickly to either support the forces at B, to interdict any armour making it through B, or to help stave off a renewed assault on A, should Juste attempt it.

I think Juste's attack on B is now his best chance of actual victory. For it to succeed I think he needs three T-34s in the village at once, assuming he hasn't got strong infantry support (enough to overcome a flanking HMG and a flame tank). Any fewer and they will die at the hands of my amply 'keyholed' defences before they get through.

[John Kettler]

Tux,

A most fortuitous, if uncolorful, shot! Frontal penetration by a StuG III of an SU-152 = impressive.May we have a shot of the impact or StuG III's firing, please? We've waited so long for this to resolve. Am now hoping to see your Flammpanzers in action.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tux]

Aye, I'll get you some shots. The top screenshot above is actually of the kill, but it didn't look impressive from any angle so I decided to try a 'Landser-eye-view' shot.

The kill was very unimpressive; a bang and some smoke from the StuG, a clang and some sparks from the SU. Five seconds later the gun drooped and the crew were out. My AFVs' vehicle cover arcs meant they didn't even harass the crew with MG fire.

As for my Flammpanzers, they'll be in action soon. I'm going to clear C of T-34s and that gun using my Tiger and StuG, and then I'll set the FPz IIIs loose to play havoc with Juste's infantry defences. :eek:

[JasonC]

Um, frontal penetration of SU-152s is entirely to be expected. They are not heavily armored critters. Just eggshells with hammers, once long 75s are out, anyway. The chassis is that of a standard KV-1.

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

Yesssss, TREFFER, the Animal Hunter is vernichtet. Man, you had us all hanging on that. Nice hunting to the StuG. John K, my nails aren't much better.

And yes, now on to the flammpanzers.

Heinrich505

[DavidFields]

To give you much deserved credit, you correctly overwhelmed the SU...both with units and morale.

Well done!

I would have been loathed to take the risk, but I wil admit that is was probably an extremely good risk you took.

So...given that there are still a lot of turns...do you let your opponent take his risks with B (and I agree that your likely have an adequate defense), or quickly press ahead with your own attack on C?

Well.. my opinion, you have a crushing position. Bring up your AFVs on C, with your infantry in the woods, pound him senseless....I do not see counter stategy for your opponent.

[Yushal]

What if his smg troops were not on the far left? Does two AFVs cost the man the game then?

I think that Juste has decent position. But he ought to stall his attack on your right and await your coming. But then, the Tiger is basically immune now...

[Tux]

It most certainly hasn't cost the man the game; a fact of which I am making sure I remain aware. The feeling I have that he might be in a significantly weakened position now is only that, a feeling. I don't want to waste too much time though, so I'm going to act generally aggressively and hope that he doesn't have the 'clout' left over to punish me for any over-extension. Ideally now I can take C and end up holding both A and C, with Juste's forces caught in the no-man's land between them.

[Tux]

As requested:

StuG fires.

SU takes the hit.

Those are the most spectacular shots I could muster, lol.

Turn 26 has also been played. My tanks moving towards C are not being harassed, but the infantry fighting to protect them are taking losses as they attempt to cross the gap between forested areas. Fortunately it appears that this is sufficient distraction to Juste's infantrymen to allow my tanks clear passage.

The T-34 left outside C appears to be preparing to reverse into cover to gain a flank shot on my Tiger. I'm hoping that my heavy tank will be able to kill it before it arrives there.

At B, things aren't going so well. Juste has, once again, adopted wanton vandalism as his assault tactic-of-choice. By destroying one of the outlying buildings at B he has reduced my Green squad to three men, but they have, at least, retained possession of their grenade bundle. The minute has also ended just in time for me to manually cancel a 'run' command that they had given themselves when under fire. Instead I am hiding them in their current ambush spot.

It seems that Juste has at least four T-34s and some level of infantry support, including at least one MMG, attacking the Hamlet. I've decided that the use of my StuG platoon as a 'fire brigade' unit is appropriate to the situation, and so I have ordered the lone 'blind' StuG at A to race over to B to take up the position vacated by his HQ several minutes ago and bolster the AT defences. The StuG in ambush position at B has delayed orders to reposition facing directly down the road as soon as the minute after next starts, to give me time to evaluate further whether or not such a move is advisable and to allow the blind StuG to take up position at approximately the same time.

My sniper at B buttoned a T-34 without killing the TC last turn, so I have Withdrawn both him and his Section HQ to a position to the rear of their heavy building. I want to see whether Juste accurately deduces his position and hits the one building that faces along the road.

My overall strategy has evolved once again, as I find is only natural, and now emphasizes a certain sense of balance to my movement orders:

I want to maintain a steady momentum on my left flank, in particular with my Tiger, and I want minimum delay between conditions being right for advance, and the advance (on C) taking place.

This will either persuade Juste to abandon his attack on B and move to blunt my assault, or allow my Tiger to hunt past/ through C and catch up with his force from the rear.

It will also allow me to avoid being 'caught up' by Juste's SMG troops on my left. If he so wished he could, even now, be moving them back away from A and advancing upon my forces from the rear.

The StuG I have ordered to speed over towards B is part of a general intention to smack Juste's armoured forces hard, right on the nose, during their assault there. If he continues pushing on that flank I intend to reverse my StuGs in increments, forcing his tanks to 'rediscover' them through the fog after each encounter. By all means I must keep them alive. If I leave them both to fight it out and they die, then the flank is clear for an armoured assault to pour through B and on towards A.

In the centre my platoon cannot, as things stand, assault across the shallow ford. The new T-34 threat is far too close, and so they are relying on the crushing of Juste's tanks by my Tiger/ StuG 'pincers' before they can assist the attack on C.

[John Kettler]

Tux,

Always nice to find another turn report, especially with AFV kill shots. Where did you hit the SU-152, and what was the range?

Judging from what I see of your on the fly military decision process, I'd say you are well on your way to becoming a formidable opponent. I think this and the other thread are real services to the CM community, for they show why we got excited about CM in the first place, show how the game is played, give a sense of the mods available, and more. Good job!

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

On Tiger apparently invulnerable, there were 2 unIDed AFVs off on the German right earlier. 5 T-34s and 1 SU-152 have been IDed. The natural remaining AFVs would be 1 additional T-34 and 1 additional SU-152, corresponding to 2 platoons of the former and one platoon of the latter. So there may very well be one more Tiger killer out there.

Russian play has been uninspired, pushing tanks too hard at superior armor. Backing off with the extra T-34s on the German left was obviously called for, but might have been followed by an aggressive run through the center village, exploiting their speed, which might have caught the flame tanks on the way to threatening the Tiger and StuG formation's right flank, during their confrontation with the SU-152.

Overall, though, this strikes me as yet another case where cherry picking uber-armor is largely deciding the fight before a turn is played. The Germans avoid anything that a 76mm can hole from the front, worry too much about head on confrontations with dominated AFVs, nothing else matters very much once the thick fronts kill the thin fronts, etc. This is why my own scenarios are full of Panzer IVs, not full of StuGs and Tigers. It simply bores to tears after a while.

One man's opinion.

[Tux]

John K, the StuG's hit was through the front upper hull, at a weak spot (which I take to mean a vision slit or MG mount?). The range was approximately 180m, I think. I can go back and check for you if you like.

JasonC, to be honest I basically agree with you regarding my armour selection and the role it has played. In my defence though, it was, for the most part, picked with close range combat very much in mind.

For a start, on a map with normal LOS ranges I would never have spent such a high proportion of 1000pts on flame tanks as I have.

Secondly, I assumed that the majority of shots fired were going to find their mark, being aimed at such short range, and so I needed my AFVs to be able to kill with their first penetration. That ruled out 50mm-armed Pz IIIs; I had too many visions of gaining good positions to combat T-34s, hitting with the first two rounds and then being killed by the response without having caused significant damage. Once I had decided I was looking for long 75mm guns, then, the decision made itself: StuG IIIGs were the cheapest well-armed AFVs available on standard rarity, and had decent armour, so I bought a platoon of them. Their armour isn't impermeable at close ranges either, as evidenced by two partial pens and the resulting dead tank commander on my 'blind' StuG.

Finally, my Tiger was indeed 'cherry-picked', but it is not the best weapon for close combat. Neither, surely, is it unreasonable in this time-frame? I chose it purely so that I could all but guarantee the security of one of my flanks, and it has only just succeeded at even that.

I am guilty of cherry-picking but, as I have mentioned before, I have a soft-spot for historical accuracy and so deliberately didn't, for example, buy three Tigers (one for each flank and one for the centre) with which to bully my way across the map. Instead I bought a close-combat infantry support group (FPz IIIs), the cheapest well-armed 'vanilla' armour available (in doing so settling for non-turreted AFVs that could well struggle against a mobile opponent at close quarters) and one lone 'Ace' with which to land 88mm fire and brimstone upon Juste's forces at a single, highly localised point of my choosing.

Even after all that, it was my fear of being out-fought and overwhelmed by platoons of mobile, hard-hitting T-34s that, in part, dictated my very cautious opening stance in this game. Three StuGs carefully keyholed within 20m of each other to get the drop on any advancing T-34s is not the tactic of a man who bought them as invincible tank-killers.

Ah well, I'm comfortable with my choices given the battle conditions and what was available. 90% of all the armoured units I ever buy are Pz IVs (my favourites are the Hs ) and T-34s, as my regular opponent, Steve, will confirm. Sorry if it's made the whole thing a bit formulaic and predictable though.

P.S. Your point regarding the likely make up of Juste's remaining forces is sound. Most of the T-34s and the SU have been regular quality so far, but I have spotted at least one green T-34. If Juste bought a regular platoon of SU-152, a regular platoon of T-34 (late)s and a green T-34 (late) platoon then he won't have gone over the 1000pt limit we set for AFVs before the match.

[Tux]

Ok, I've just watched and responded to Turn 27.

I had previously considered it a vague possibility, then JasonC suggests it and it instantly comes to pass! Barely three or four seconds into the turn a colossal bloody great bang rings out from down the road near B, and the second of my 'front line' of houses is no more. He has another sodding SU-152! I'll try and kill this one more spectacularly, John K.

So anyway, B is now, to my mind, seriously under threat. My Flammpanzer is unable to move without coming under fire and my green would-be tank hunters are still coughing amongst the dust and rubble of what was, until recently, their shelter. I need my two StuGs to really knuckle down and perform for me here over the next two minutes.

On the bright side, I correctly anticipated Juste's deduction of the position of my sniper. Unfortunately his T-34 opened up MG fire on the building before my sniper's 4s withdrawal delay was through, and so he pinned and then got routed by the ensuing shell-fire. Fortunately my Section HQ did get out safely, and is currently rallying the poor green bugger who has cowered in some nearby woodland.

On the left things are going better. The platoon that is shepherding my tanks through the gap is back under control and has captured a Soviet MMG crewman.

I can now continue to operate my Tiger under the assumption that it is immune to any defences that may be arrayed against it. Within the next 30s I expect a further T-34 kill, and I have given all of my units near C extensive orders to get into position to assault. If all goes well the Flammpanzers will be moving out within the next three-four minutes. For the moment though my mind is on the defence of B, and on that gun which I have been unable to relocate at C, despite having had two squads with LOS to its previous position for several minutes in a row...

[Tux]

We may as well be TCPing this game at the moment!

Turn 28 has arrived, been watched and then been sent on its way back for Juste to see.

Where to start...? On my left my men have captured another MMG crew member, thus accounting for both machine gun units that were known to be in the area. My Tiger hunted blithely past the panicking T-34, so it was left to my HQ StuG to put two AP shells through its lower rear hull as it tried to make good its escape.

Some of my men near the main road came under fire from C, and a single squad member casualty was taken. Apart from that I am now in position to begin gun-hunting with my Tiger. Assuming it's a ZIS-3, it can't hurt my Tiger's flank I don't think, can it?

On the right it has become painfully obvious that Juste knows the whereabouts of my FPz III. Naturally, he has no way of telling that it is harmless beyond 60m range, and so rather than try and sneak a unit into LOS he has had four full AFVs pound the poor buggers with HE for the last minute, lol.

Thankfully, apart from a couple of concussed crewmen, not even the 152mm jobs have caused any damage yet. I'm actually quite happy for this lone Pz III to soak up as much time and attention as Juste wants to spare on it - at the moment it's only giving my StuGs time to get into position; something they are still a good minute away from doing.

[ May 10, 2008, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

[John Kettler]

Tux,

Are we playing CMBB, or are we trapped in a Twilight Zone episode in which speaking words instantly brings forth what was described? Spooky, though eminently logical based on JasonC's reasoning. Still, two SU-152s? Urk! You are fortunate the thing only blasted a house and even more fortunate your Flammpanzers are the target of HE and not APHE.

I definitely don't understand that decision by Juste, unless EFOW is making him think they're something easily killable, thus not worth a tank killing round. Color yourself blessed!

The engagement range is not good at all for a Tiger. If he comes racing in from multiple angles with those T-34s, you could find yourself in the hurt locker, with the turret futilely turning this way and that, while accomplishing nothing useful.

Meanwhile, the T-34s could chew you up wholesale. Likewise, a ZIS-3 firing into your flank at this sort of range can ruin your entire day. On this kind of ground a T-34 is really fast, and I got clobbered fighting same even when I had Panzer IV/Js with much faster traversing turrets than a Tiger 1 has.

Shall be most interested to see what happens next.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

JK - the Russian tanks on the German right clearly don't have LOS to the Panzer III. They are blasting through the houses it is hiding behind, to create a clear line of site. Using HE, necessarily.

And JK is correct, a 76mm gun can definitely hurt a Tiger from the side. The lower hull is rarely hit, rather than track or the upper hull, but is only 60mm thick. Track hit can also immobilize of course. The upper hull can also be partially penetrated at close enough range and a flat enough angle.

[Tux]

Turn 29

I'm beginning to think I've drawn a bit of a dud crew for my Tiger. Apart from killing a T-34 from 80m it has been utterly useless so far. Last turn I ordered the thing to smoke an area ahead of where the gun used to be, so that the tank could then drive past with a secure flank. A second into Turn 29 an MMG opens up nearby, and my Tiger crew instantly cancel their smoke mission and lob an ineffective HE shell at the offending machine gun.

Fortunately they didn't advance far enough to be threatened by the gun, but it means I have to delay my assault another minute as I try and negotiate the situation properly.

Apart from that, two MMGs have been properly located at C (as circled in the shot), and Juste has reversed two T-34s from the attack on B to help defend C.

At B, the fight is quickly getting tougher. Juste has continued his rampage of wanton destruction, and has eliminated my sniper's Section HQ in doing so. The entire area is now also shrouded with dust, making my attempts to gain LOS for the StuGs that much more of a guessing game. Also, Juste has managed to advance an infantry unit from the trees, across the open ground being 'watched' by my HMG and into the nearest rubble without my backup HMG opening fire, which is almost as annoying as my Tiger's antics. I've given the offending MG a narrower cover arc to try and improve his response if any other units attempt a similar move.

He is also advancing a unit towards my green threesome cowering amongst another rubble patch. I think my men may die here, but they should cause some damage first.

On the bright side, my flame tank is still something of a trump card against nearby infantry. I'm using one StuG to smoke the main road and destroy Juste's AFVs' LOS for a minute or three. I'd like to buy my FPz III a little 'quality time' with his infantry.

Things are all very complex at the moment and I have all sorts of schemes and ideas and paradoxes swirling about in my head, so sorry about the standard of this post. I'll try and rationalise things for you a bit better next time.

[John Kettler]

Tux,

If you wait a minute or two, JasonC will be along to explain to you that your Tiger has already exceeded its statistically expected performance by getting what you perceive as one measly kill. Should also add that in any game where I buy heavy armor, it generally Immobilizes or dies, seldom achieving anything in the process other than burning up points.

I misunderstood the HE bombardment I was seeing, presuming the target was your Flammpanzer, rather than being a cover removal exercise. Must say I find your notion of 'quality time' with his infantry to be both delicious and twisted.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tux]

Lol, I'll be sure to get some 'delicious' screenshots for you, if it comes off.

Is that statistic true of Tigers that reached the battlefield and engaged Soviet armour? I suppose it's very difficult to tell.

Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't expect Tigers to have been much more effective than that. Mine has killed one tank out of three I've given him shots at, which is fine (if a bit disappointing at this range). I would far rather he had continued his smoke mission last turn than slightly piss off an MG by chucking a single HE shell at it before losing LOS, but there you go. I s'pose the mere threat posed by his presence is having an invisible effect on Juste's strategy as well.

[Tux]

Turn 30

There's quite a fight going on here, and it's hotting up fast.

At C my HMG and infantry overwatch have opened up on known enemy positions - it's high time they were given a reason to hide in cover. I take a couple of casualties in return, but nothing serious, and one or two of Juste's units appear to pin.

Simultaneously my HQ StuG fires smoke rounds in front of Juste's gun and my Tiger drives across, past LOS to its position. My heart spends a short but painful period in my mouth as the gun reveals itself and rotates to engage my Tiger (once again apparently oblivious to everything around it), but just in time the smoke rounds become 'live' and the gun is completely blinded. It should remain that way until I have over-run its position.

Juste is also moving his two T-34s yet again to engage across the river towards B.

At B itself it is a mixed minute for my units. My flammpanzer's TC is shot in the head by an un-noticed sniper (I really should have learned by now), and so the tank spends most of the minute 'shocked'. Its crew pull themselves together and level the flamethrower barrel just in time to fire immediately next turn.

My three green Jagers have two of their number taken out by enemy fire, but the last man is still fighting hard as the minute draws to a close.

The two StuGs advance to a point I thought would be hidden by dust, but apparently it is not. Juste's T-34 misses a shot at my blind StuG and a second later the SU has a crack. My blind crew can count themselves outstandingly fortunate that the massive AP shell hit only their tracks, disabling the StuG. As both of my little SPGs level their guns to return fire the SU backs off down the road, and the StuGs are just adjusting their aim to engage the T-34 as the minute finishes.

Overall I think this minute was ok. I hope to kill Juste's lone T-34, and am thankful that my StuG was immobilised in such a useful position. I should then be able to crack off at the SU as soon as it attempts to re-assert itself along the main road.

At C my forces are advancing next turn. The two flammpanzers had fast move orders delayed last turn, so they will be moving as soon as the next minute starts.

When Turn 31 comes expect fire, and lots of it.