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Not another AAR!? Tux Vs. Juste

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Hi all. Sorry, it's me again with another AAR. I'm enjoying doing the 1941 jobby quite a lot, so I thought I'd have a shot at another one in parallel. If we could try not to make too many direct references from one of these AARs to the other it would be very useful, since I'm playing them against different opponents, so they are each allowed to read the thread that doesn't concern them.

So here it is; a CMBB meeting engagement set at dawn on a damp, foggy April day in 1943. This time I was allowed to see the map first. The points limit was 2000, force composition was unrestricted but we could only spend a maximum of 1000pts on armour. Rarity was standard and the maximum allowed unit quality was veteran. My honourable opponent allowed me to choose sides, so I flipped a coin and went German on his ass.

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Right, so, to begin. It's April 1943. I've been playing just about long enough to know more or less what that means in terms of potential unbalanced fights: I, as the Germans, have affordable access to 80mm+ frontal armour which the Soviets will find it hard to penetrate at any sort of range. Juste, my Communist friend, has access to SMGs en masse.

Since the weather is foggy and we are fighting at dawn, visibility is restricted to a maximum of 200m in the open. The map is also very generous in terms of cover. Clearly, any fighting is going to be hard, fast and conducted at hideously close range. Juste's ready access to swarms of SMG-armed infantry has persuaded me that this will just not do; I must seek to maximise the distances over which my men engage his and bring as many guns to bear as possible when I do.

My force selection therefore reads as follows:

2 x regular Jaeger Companies: To maximise the amount of SMG firepower my men wield.

1 x regular and 1 x green sharpshooter: AFV commanders are going to be especially vulnerable and worth suppressing.

1 x green 75mm FO (75 rounds): A smoke mission will allow for an advance across open ground, enabling me to avoid SMG-infested tree patches.

1 x regular platoon of StuG IIIGs (early): I need to utilise my AFV superiority to counterbalance his well armed infantry units - a platoon of keyholed StuGs should be able to hold an objective of my choice against armoured assault.

2 x regular and 1 x green Pz III Flamm: A means by which to quickly and efficiently obliterate nearby hostile SMGs

1 x regular Pz VIE Tiger (early): Should be able to do alone what the StuG platoon can do, and do it in a second area of my choosing.

Right, I'll be able to elaborate on my planes in more detail once we've seen a turn or two and my forces are in position. Here's the map:


Essentially, I have positioned two good Jaeger platoons plus two of their HMG 42s in the village at A, and am confident that they are well positioned to fight off unsupported infantry. They are well led and most of them are 'keyholed' in heavy buildings so that they only have LOS to areas of open ground, and not the nearby scattered tree cover.

The Left Flank and Defences at A


I'm sending my StuGs to B. They should be there and in position to cover the approaches by the end of the first turn. I am also sending my green Sharpshooter with a damned good Section Leader to hit any TCs who stick their heads over the shallow hill along the road towards the Red lines. I am scared of the trees on the map edge at B; they give a perfectly covered approach route to the hamlet for SMG troops, and I'm not even going to try and deny them that by wasting my own men in 25m combat in thick woods. My plan is to stop them getting out of the woods and contesting the flag in the hamlet. To this end I have a green HMG with a good Section Leader in the trees just behind my lines who can shoot along the entire length of the gap between the trees and the nearest buildings in the hamlet. I also have a single green squad moving into position in a heavy building to ambush anyone who tried to cross a larger patch of open ground (I expect it to work once, well, and then probably be destroyed). Finally, I have my trump card: I have identified a position from which a regular Pz III Flamm can cover all of the buildings on the right hand side of the hamlet and a portion of the trees beyond. He will meanwhile be himself covered from armoured attack by the StuGs, and will remain out of range of close assault.

"Taskforce B"


My other sharpshooter is going to sprint, alone, up the left flank to the edge of the trees to observe (and only observe) any attempted advance by Red forces down the left flank.

My main 'attacking' force is going to take the unexpected route forwards; straight down the middle through the least well-covered area of the map. Three platoons head into the central patches of woods: Two into the lefthand patch supported by an HMG and a Company HQ and one into the other patch supported by a 75mm smoke FO and the second Company HQ. A single platoon is sent to sweep the inside edge of the area of woods ahead of the second arrow from left. A cautious advance along the main road towards C will watch for targets which my supporting Tiger can then move up and destroy.

My main fear here is two-fold: A Tungsten round or two from a well positioned 45mm ATG could very quickly ruin my day completely, so I must be prepared to push my men as far as possible without exposing my Tiger unnecessarily. Secondly, the trees on my left could prove to be Juste's chosen axis of assault. In case it proves to be swarming with Soviet infantry covering the route along the road I have my platoon assigned to advance along the very edge of it, fighting the enemy off if necessary. These brave warriors will support, and be supported by two Pz III Flamms (the green one and one which was bumped up to vet) right next to them, which will hopefully get the drop on any troops the Jaegers encounter in the trees.

The Route to C and Supporting Platoons


All told, I'm confident that I can hold B against all but a full battle group. I am as confident that A will not fall to a force that is not supported by heavy HE firepower. With this in mind my advance will, initially, be towards C and C only. The approaches towards D are too open and restricted, necessitating as they do an assault across a bridge and/ or a shallow ford. Even the assault towards C, as I have hinted, will be a slow and cautious one. I will readily have my men fall back to extend the range towards any SMGs or to support the troops at A. Similarly, I won't think twice about using my Tiger to take on any Red armour that tries to advance down my left flank. Finally, I have planned a set of defensive positions covering the route from B towards A, in case B should fall, which either my advancing men or my best platoon at A can readily take up.

[ March 31, 2008, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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Lol. Monsieur 'Juste' doesn't wait around!

Turn 1

Uneventful, as I suppose I expected. No contact made anywhere 'along the line'.

Taskforce B almost in position


The reinforced company on my left are still moving up to their forward positions in preparation for launching the advance. The Tiger hangs back; I am going to decide where to deploy him on a minute-by-minute basis.


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It's Paintshop Pro 8 - I got used to using it when I used to skin aircraft models for Il2 Sturmovik. It's very good and, as you've noticed, quite useful for annotations.

Turn 2

Still no contact whatsoever, which is slightly disturbing. If Juste has decided on a similar (primarily defensive) strategy to me then I could be in big trouble. I don't have the strength to assault a well-fortified position efficiently. I'd much rather take the brunt of his forces with my defensive positions and then counter attack when he's weak, but then who wouldn't?

Anyway, Taskforce B is all but entirely in position. I just need to double check their LOS during the next orders phase to make sure my Pz III isn't sticking his backside out beyond the rear of the house, for example.


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Orders for Turn 3 consist of minor adjustments to my units to improve their LOS ranges. I need to shuffle the Pz III in a bit close to the building - he's too far away atm and can be seen from too many angles.

My scouting platoon along the road to C is sneaking about in the trees on the left flank, obtaining decent LOS to the road ahead. I'm not comfortable without having made any contact yet. I don't want to give him sound contacts to my moving AFVs unnecessarily when I don't know where he is.

Finally, I got paranoid and buttoned my Tiger commander as well as hiding all of my defenders at A. They can't spot anything useful from where they are and I don't want to leave my personnel at risk from prep fire HE any more than I have to.

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Turn 3 of 40

Still no contact whatsoever. Taskforce B is in position, except for the Flammpanzer which is having trouble with collision detection.

ALl other units are making tiny adjustment moves until I know more about Juste's ideas.

The one exception is my sharpshooter scout on my left flank. He is now wandering around the map like a proper lone wolf, looking for signs of the enemy. Hopefully, as long as he's on Move to Contact I'll be able to evacuate him as soon as he finds anything.

[ April 01, 2008, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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This looks fun!

Has your graphic card got the capability to render the fog to add to the atmosphere of the battle?

Best use the LOS tool to get a reference of your forces effective ranges as the clear view across the map as per the screenies looks deceptive.

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No need to apologize for another AAR. There's not much going on in the CMBB forum these days anyway. Keep up the good work with the AARs.

I noticed your got some Stuggies and a Tiger. Theres some very nice mods over at CMMODS of these AFVS.

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Lol, funny you should say that, MeatEtr, I've just been on a little 'shopping trip' to CMMODS to see if I couldn't spruce them all up a bit. I had to modify some file 'cos I don't like having numerals on my tanks, used Pat's StuG and Pz III chassis graphics and I put some ash on the Flammpanzer/ Pz IIIM gun barrel.

@ Wicky, yes it can, I'd completely forgotten to turn it back on.

I've just played turn 4, so I think a screenshot or two is in order.

[ April 01, 2008, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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Ok, folks, I've got some eye candy for you. Basically, there's still no contact with Juste's men, as of the end of Turn 4, so these are some shots of my units in position to start moving out:

My Tiger hangs back, buttoned up and ready to move out on demand


100m ahead of the Tiger, to the left of the main road, a Platoon of men are in position to sweep the edge of the trees clear of enemy troops, aided and abetted by a pair of Flammpanzer IIIs



I'll get you some pics of the position at B, shiny new StuGs and all, next time. I don't want you to see them now; my Flammpanzer is arsing about rotating 270deg to face the right way, and has currently got half his hull through the wall of the nearest building. I know it's my fault, but it doesn't make for a very inspiring screenshot, lol, so you're just getting this overview of the road to C instead:


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We welcome your additional DAR (During Action Report), while anxiously awaiting the next cycle of the first one. Who mows all those lovely triangles onto your battlefield? Must simplify range estimation!

On a more serious note, I don't understand, unless you intend to use him for scouting, why you bought a Green sharpshooter? Rather like jumbo shrimp! Even with a good HQ in support, he's unlikely to accomplish much. As a rule, I buy Veteran quality as a minimum and much prefer Crack or Elite. I also question the wisdom of buying a Tiger, then crewing it with run of the mill men. The whole German philosophy was to leverage the weapon's potency by putting top men in the Tiger. They're never supposed to be used in groups less than a pair, but I'll accept the argument its twin broke down and is at the schwere Panzer Werkstatt Kompanie! As for your shiny new StuGs, should the foe engage them from off axis, do NOT make the mistake of trying to rotate in place to engage.

This is a known defect in the game engine and will get you killed if you try to imitate your real life counterparts, who could quickly pivot without moving forward. Rather, plot a short move forward, then a quick dogleg, followed by another, as shown here.


This section of Fragment, Tactics/Training/Weapons, is positively awash in material that can save your bacon.

I am going to strongly suggest that you stay on top of your flame tank switchology, else you may have big problems. Again! The Flammpanzer III's flame projector replaces the main gun and is in the turret. This is the exact opposite of your OT-26s in the first battle.



John Kettler

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Lol, thanks John. I did some proper research on the FlammPz III, even to the extent of adding subtle lines to the barrel bmp to simulate the difference between the flamethrower nozzle and the 50L60 barrel. Apparently it was unable to reliably flame a target beyond about 30-50m, although in CMBB it's allowed 60. I have also used FPz IIIs before and, although inferior to the OT-34 (you've gotta love having a 100m FT and the 76mm gun!), they are extremely useful in close range fights and can even shrug off the odd AP hit!

I hope never to have my StuGs rotate on the spot. The only reason I have my FPz III doing it now is because I feel I have the time to be lazy and avoid exposing him by driving out of cover. I have adequate spotting capability in the hamlet at B and in the next patch of trees across the map, near the centre, so I will know well in advance if any AT assets attempt to outflank my SPGs and have already got my eye on one or two positions to which they can be moved to counter the new threat. In fact, I think the only way Juste could easily take B is by attacking with considerable armoured support from both directions at once.

The quality of several of my units is less than I would like due to points restrictions. For example, as a rule, the only unit I would ever even consider buying at green or below would be a prep-fire FO or perhaps an MG or ATR. Ideally I would definitely have bought a veteran Tiger, and crack sharpshooters. Alas, it just wasn't possible.

I have consoled myself by remembering the exceptionally short range at which most of the combat is going to be fought in this scenario. The maximum LOS anywhere on the map is 200m. At 200m a regular Tiger crew should hit two shots out of three, as should the StuGs. Even my StuG Platoon HQ, who got relegated to green, should hit one in three shots.

I've applied the same logic to my sharpshooters: The green guy is sat in a heavy building at B, staring down a road which he cannot see further than ~130m along. He is under the command of a Section HQ with a double stealth and double combat bonus (and I think some other bonuses too) who also has LOS as far as possible down the road. I am hoping that, in the event that a 1943 era Soviet AFV makes it over the rise in the road without buttoning, my sharpshooter +double combat bonus will be able to hit the bugger at 125m.

This eventuality is, in itself, somewhat unlikely since any AFV cresting the rise may well button up to engage my StuGs before the sharpshooter gets a shot. Either way no-one is going to get a good view of the hamlet at B by driving down the road.

As for my lawn stylist, I think his name was Rocketman or some such. I can find out for you if you like. Yes, it does make range estimation a little easier, and it also makes squad separation less of a chore too, seeing as BB denies me the ability to tell my squads verbally to always stay 26m apart. I'm thinking of maybe finding a nice, picturesque alternative that I can use for the screenshots though. Does anyone know a good terrain set for the Ostfront that doesn't actually hide differences in elevation with its pattern?

[ April 02, 2008, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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I sure hope so, Cuirassier, because I don't think he's going to have to wait long to test the idea! (I know you're right; just trying to add a bit of drama to the thing, lol).

Turn 5

The situation at B is absolutely peaceful. My FPz III is still rotating, but will be done shortly into Turn 6, after which my forces on that flank simply sit still and try not to fall asleep.



My folks at A are not going to be so lucky, I fear. My pre-battle reconnaissance led to an accurate prediction of Juste's first plan of attack, and my brave sharpshooter scout was on hand to locate it:


With a degree of forethought of which I am inclined to be slightly proud, I had given him a delayed withdrawal order to ensure he wasn't caught lingering by Juste's advance. Sure enough, a second before the end of the turn he has begun to sneak, undetected, back towards cover. I cancelled an original waypoint taking him back towards A, and instead ordered him to the edge of the woods to see if he couldn't tell me more about the oncoming enemy force.


As for exactly what he detected, a single infantry unit advanced along the yellow arrow from cover to cover, presumably a point unit 'testing' the route to gauge the risk posed by the necessary exposure. Three "tank?" sound contacts were detected, and moved along the three red arrows depicted.

In a stereotypical example of Sod's Law, I ordered my Tiger forwards during the last orders stage to be closer to my forces creeping towards C. The latter are making quiet, uneventful progress, and the 'main thrust' of the advance will be able to move along the terrain to the right of the road in two minutes' time.


All that remained during this turn was to order my Tiger back to his original position and prepare him to take out the armoured units detected by my scout. I found this frustrating because it may well give Juste a sound contact which could have been avoided if I'd stayed sober and let the bloody thing be last time around. Ah well, like I said; Sod's Law.


As I complete this post I have received the file for Turn 6. Can you stand the tension? I know I can't...

[ April 02, 2008, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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P.S. One thing I was going to ask: What say the grogs on here about the acceptability of my force selection? Although I do pick the units I think I'll need for a given battle and my StuG IIIGs, for example, were cheaper than their less-capable forebears, I also have a soft spot for historical accuracy. Is it unfair/ unrealistic for me to have taken a Tiger (apart from the discrepancy regarding only taking one with a regular crew)?

[ April 02, 2008, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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Turn 6

I spent most of this minute egging my scout to crawl faster, dammit! I'm not happy with him to get up and leg it until he's got at least 5-10m of woods between him and the enemy, although that is taking a while. During the next orders phase I'm going to test the LOS from his current position. If he's invisible to a spot 15-20m closer than the last known position of that point unit then I'm gonna have him up and out of the immediate vicinity at a run.

During the turn he did detect the sound of a tank again. It adds little to what I already knew, and was last seen here:


My Tiger has successfully repositioned, and is ready and waiting to reveal himself when the time is right. If possible I might try and pop a TC or two with my scout before I reveal the Tiger.


At B my FPz III has finally got his act together and is now sat facing in the right direction, no longer even snagging any masonry!


He now has LOS to a carefully selected range of nearby positions and is just daring anyone to set a hostile foot in the buildings along the flank of Hamlet B.


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Ok, I had a look and decided it was safe for Obergefreiter Hochstadter to peg it into the woods before he hooks about and moves to observe the tanks' advance. Apart from that I've hidden anyone involved in my 'advance' who isn't under the command of a double stealth bonus operator. If I move now Juste might divert assets from his thrust across to interdict my men, which I don't want. I want his tanks to continue advancing and die by the '88, and I want his men nicely bunched up in the body of woods occupied by Hochstadter.

Unfortunately I don't think I have the means to destroy them once they're in there, but while they are there they're not anywhere else, and that's fine by me. smile.gif

For interest's sake I took this screenshot of the platoon holding the outskirts of Village A:


For the purpose of the shot they've been temporarily given cover arcs representing the limits of their LOS ranges. As you can see, they all cover open ground only. Hopefully this should keep them relatively safe from support weaponry. Also, none of them covers the route to their own building. Instead, each of them covers the approaches to the building occupied by the next squad along. This way anyone trying to close assault a building will receive close range 'dissuasive' fire from their flank.

This whole getup is supported by another full platoon of four well-led squads, plus two good HMGs. Unless Juste manages to sneak a heavy FO into position to whack the lot of them I think they constitute a fairly tough defence.

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Playing through Turn 7 yields two contacts. One is nothing new - Hochstadter again hears a tank moving about near the trees, and the contact finishes off rotating into position here:


The second is slightly alarming: Two infantry sound contacts are made advancing across the map as shown here:


Now I don't know what to make of these. Has Juste detected my forces moving towards C and sent a platoon to interdict them in the trees to the left of the road? Is the troop movement simply a part of his original plan which looks set to collide with mine in a particularly awkward fashion? Or is the sound contact a misleading one representing troops moving elsewhere, not nearly as close to my forces as they appear?

In case the truth turns out to be one of the former two, I have given my two FPz IIIs hunt orders to catch up with the troops sweeping the trees ahead of them; they'll just have to run the risk of an AT gun in the scattered treees ahead. I have also cut one of my squads back to cover the two flame tanks from close assault.

Hochstadt is a few metres away from sitting still and watching. I really can't wait to find out what he can see.

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During Turn 8 my assets along the left of the road become the solid unit of co-dependent forces I intended at the beginning. The FPz IIIs are close enough alongside my Jagers to be able to see as far into the forest as them, and therefore to be able to rout any Soviet infantry they encounter. In return, they are immune from close assault by anyone sheltering in the treeline.


This is a good thing, because I'm beginning to think they may encounter the enemy quite soon. The two sound contacts picked up by my sharpshooter scout were last seen here:


Hopefully they are behind my advancing troops, and are just as eager to avoid my armour as I am them. The tank sound contact you can see in that screenshot quickly developed into a solid visual contact when Obergefreiter Hochstadter reached his final waypoint and peered out from the woods. Although the contact remained of the generic 'tank' type, he also spotted two infantry-type units advancing through the nearby scattered trees:


At the moment I'm perfectly happy simply knowing where the enemy is. I don't think I need to know what type of AFV the tank is, although my money is on a T-34.

As the minute comes to a close the men hit the dirt and hide. Too late though; this particular section of the Soviet advance is no longer secret.


I think maybe Juste is planning to launch his main assault from the patch of forest I have been expecting him to use, but he seems keen to clear the edges of the other forested areas as well. This could simply be to avoid being taken by surprise by heavy support groups, or he may plan to run armour close to the cover.

Apart from that I can't yet see any definite benefit to his 'owning' all of those areas of forest, unless he is searching out my advanced units with his own? If that is the case then I would expect this force to be exceptionally strong. If he is happy to both interdict my advance and assault a defended village with the same force he must be pretty confident of it's robustness...

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Turn 10

First contact! A few seconds into the minute a single rifle cracks loudly from the scattered trees along the main road to C. Before my forces know what's going on the leading FPz Tank Commander is down wounded, shocking his crew. The tank crew have yet to recover, and are holding up the tank behind them when a Soviet squad walks into LOS of my troops in the forest. Instantly two of my squads open heavy fire and follow it up with a barrage of hand grenades. The Soviet squad get off a couple of bursts in return, but to no effect, and they are quickly suppressed. Unfortunately, the tangle that my two flame tanks are in means they fail to get off a burst in support of their comrades in the trees.


Elsewhere, my scout has detected at least four tank sound contacts moving in the same general area as the last few, without spotting any more. He has also heard more troop movements near where contact has been made, as well as a sneaky few attacking down the flank as expected.


My orders are to cancel the scout's previous delayed withdrawal and set up another one to allow him a further minute in position.

Where contact has been made my squads are each ordered to advance one 'step' further, to the position where the preceding squad was, in a minute's time. For now the two who have made contact keep firing and my flame tanks are both reversing to engage. Needless to say, the remaining FPz commander is firmly buttoned up inside his cupola.

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During Turn 10 the infantry squad that ran into my forces in the forest was driven off. Whether it was the result of a Withdraw order or a rout I don't know.

Also my scout gains positive IDs of five AFVs:


Four 'T-34?'s and a 'heavy SPG?', which is currently credited with a 152mm gun.

[ April 04, 2008, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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Sounds pretty exciting. If the purported heavy SPG is correct, you may be looking at an SU-152 zveroboi

Tiger eater. It doesn't fire fast, but if it hits, your Tiger, never mind the Flammpanzer IIIs, is in real trouble. Sharpshoot its commander, if you get the chance. That'll really cut into its performance. Until you get a positive ID, see how fast it moves. Unless your foe is keeping everything at a walking pace, the faster T-34s will outrun a heavy. Contrariwise, if the T-34s are moving at a good clip and whatever it is keeps up, then it's likely to be an SU-122 mounting a stubby 122mm howitzer on a T-34 chassis (dangerous, but nowhere nearly as much as that honking 152mm) or maybe a SU-85, also on a T-34 chassis, which could be fairly exciting.


John Kettler

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And so it begins. That vandal, Juste, has opened fire on the outskirts of the town with two T-34s and an SU-152. The other two T-34s open fire with MGs only to allow them to react to any armour I may expose, I assume.

The SU's first round overshoots the building which it is aimed at and detonates four metres from my exposed Tiger TC, killing him instantly. Thankfully, the rest of the crew have time to gather themselves before the next round demolishes the building and envelopes them in dust and debris. My Tiger's movement order then brings him up to the edge of where the building would have been, but dust still obscures his LOS.


A single infantryman is also wounded by a 76mm explosion in another of the houses.

My orders are now more proactive: That SU must have been expensive, and constitutes a significant threat to my Tiger. It must die. I have therefore ordered my sharpshooter scout to take a 94m shot at the SPG's commander, before sneaking back into cover 7s later. Simultaneously my Tiger is going to hunt through the dust cloud. Ideally, the SU will be crippled by Hochstadter's shot, and still in a state of shock when my Tiger appears through the murk. I can then only hope that the crew of my tank identify the SU quickly, and finish it before it can get off a return shot. I don't expect the T-34s to pose a threat until next turn, when Juste may try and rush them forwards to flank my Tiger.

Elsewhere, the only orders I give are to keep my advancing party moving through the trees towards C.

[ April 04, 2008, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Tux ]

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That point regarding the speed at which the SPG moves is interesting, JK. I've had it positively IDed as an SU-152 now though, which is of some concern. Unfortunately the building was actually finished off by a 76mm round, meaning the SPG only had to fire one and will have a round ready and chambered when my Tiger appears. I really do need my sharpshooter to make the most of having manoeuvred to within 100m of his target.

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