to vetern or not to veteren?

[Chad Harrison]

in a lot of my Rugged Defence PBEM games i have noticed a trend that i call the "i forgot to switch off veteren button" syndrome. whether its the armour, the sturmgruppe company, the FO, the truck, or the team mascot!; whatever they buy it is veteren.

we are all aware of the sometimes large point increase for veteren stuff (esp. for tanks!), but heres is the time old question that im sure we all ask ourselves:Is it worth it to buy veteren troops?

now heres my beef: yes you get better troops, better shooting tanks and stuff, BUT they all die the same. if i get a good shot on your veteren panther for 250pts with my 73 point greyhound, that sucks for you. yes that veteren panther could be a killer weapon if wielded correctly, but it takes one mistake or one surprise and hes gone. i always buy veteren zooks (14pts reg, 18pts vet), and other things.

but on a 2000pt ME is it worth it to get stuck on the veteren button?

comments?

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Chad Harrison ]

[Gyrene]

Vetern?

Gyrene

[The Commissar]

They way I do it is I designate pre-game if I feel like having an "assault force" of sorts. These guys, which I upgrade to Vet status, are the ones that perform all the dangerous jobs I wouldn't trust my Regulars for.

I usually try to get at least 3 Vet Shrecks/Zooks in a 2k game, and this usually pays off well. In some game I also get, as previously mentioned, a Vet assault force consisting anywhere from a single platoon to a company or more.

I never get Vet tanks though. I just don't find them being worth it since usually I use tanks in mass and with good smoke cover so they can get in close. Whether you chucked away an extra 50 points or not for Veteran status doesn't matter at the range I have my tank clashes on.

[CMplayer]

I would say splurge on vets for the following, because this is where it's really worth it:

AT teams

AT guns(sometimes)

TDs meant to be used in an ambush role, or to hunt down enemy armor which is already located.

about 20-30% of your infantry (for recon or forward defensive outposts)

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Vetern?

Gyrene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

shoot, ich studiert deutsch, ober, ich verstehe english nicht gut! und, ich bin mude. sorry! i better stick to CM and stay away from spelling

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

I would say splurge on vets for the following, because this is where it's really worth it:

AT teams

AT guns(sometimes)

TDs meant to be used in an ambush role, or to hunt down enemy armor which is already located.

about 20-30% of your infantry (for recon or forward defensive outposts)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i would have to say that this is my technique usually. veteren guns dont seem to be too much more expensive, and i will usually pick up a few veteren platoons. those are the solitary platoons, and i double up my regular ones.

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>shoot, ich studiert deutsch, ober, ich verstehe english nicht gut! und, ich bin mude. sorry! i better stick to CM and stay away from spelling <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah...I'll take your word for it.

No sweat.

Veteran troops are nice, but in some instances having a larger number of regular troops can make a difference in the end of the game

Gyrene

[jshandorf]

I only but veteran units for specific roles such as Zooks, Snipers.. etc.. The minor additional cost can make a big difference there. As for the AFVs.. The cost is just too high. I would rather take my chances on with Regular AFVs. Veterans and above die just as easy it seems to me.

Jeff

[Porajkl]

I also won't buy veteran tanks anymore. They just keep dissapointing me because they don't know how to shoot! I'll just buy regulars and I am satisfied if they cannot hit a tank at 150 meters with first shot.

The difference in quality is not as big as is in price.

[gredeker]

I'll second the recommendation to go with veteran AT teams and sharpshooters. I'll also go with somewhere between a platoon and a company of veteran troops, especially if they're stout 2LMG German squads. I never buy better than veteran quality for anything, as the points seem to be wasted - my experience with crack and elite troops is that they stupidly keep moving to their objective and get killed in their entirety, or stay in their defensive spots too long when they should have routed.

Run away, run away...

[MrSpkr]

I agree with Jeff (shudder). For most units, the cost is a bit much. AT and Sharpshooter assets, definitely. Sometimes it is useful to have veterans gun crews, too, as they seem to last a little longer under artillery fire.

Veteran AFV crews are, however, useless. Either buy regular or green AFVs or pop the cash for crack or elite crews (where the higher response time and accuracy become more apparent).

Just my $0.02 worth.

BTW, Jeff, email me and we can begin dicussing parameters for our invitational tournament battle.

{edited because it seems to bug Germanboy so much}

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[JasonC]

Anyone who uses more than 1/4 veterans is a gamey cheating no good piker whose mother smelt of elderberries. It is like trout fishing with dynamite, or deer hunting with helicopter gunships. Real men use greens. (Except at night, greens at night just plain suck LOL).

[Pvt. Ryan]

I finally understood a JasonC post!

I usually play smaller battles - 1500 points or less, so buying vererans really uses up the points. I try to have a platoon of veterans to use as a reserve so I can get thm where they are needed quickly and so they can overrun an already weakened enemy.

[Panzer_Meyer]

I pretty much pick my forces how everyone alse here, does.

I usually go with regular troops, but I do buy 2 platoons (depending on the point size) of veterans. If I am playing as the Germans,(1500pt) I go with 2 regular SS rifle Companys and 2 veteran SMG platoons. Maybe even 3 veteran SMG platoons.

This way I am not buying a SMG horde, but I stay as historical as possible. I use the vet SMGs for special attack, main thrust kind of deal.

[Lars]

Vet German Artillery Observers are a good buy.

Unless you like waiting all day.

[Redwolf]

One thing not mentioned about veteran vehicles is that hey don't abadon as easily on penetration.

A veteran hellcat still living although shocked after that 20mm hit is the better thing to have than the abanonded regular one, for 25 points more.

If of course pointless for halftracks threatend by 105mm HE, but if you expect "clean" penetration on non-burn-easy vehicles veteran offers this advantage.

[Mr. Johnson--]

You gamey bastard Rommel.

I'll remember to buy some vet Brit airborne next time I play you.

[Panzer_Meyer]

Well than Mr. Johson, send me a setup and I'll show what gamey really means.

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>By Jason C: Anyone who uses more than 1/4 veterans is a gamey cheating no good piker whose mother smelt of elderberries. It is like trout fishing with dynamite, or deer hunting with helicopter gunships. Real men use greens. (Except at night, greens at night just plain suck LOL). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Jason C made a joke! I once heard rumors of Michael Dorosh making a joke, but I missed it, and now Jason C cracks one out!

Strange days indeed...I'm bookmarking this one.

Gyrene

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

now heres my beef: yes you get better troops, better shooting tanks and stuff, BUT they all die the same. [ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Chad Harrison ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to disagree with your views in some respects. Veteran troops will not die the same. Here's a typical example:

Suppose you have two platoons, one is regular and the other is Veteran. Both are dug in in the woods. They both are pounded by a 105mm barrage for an equal amount of time. By the end of the barrage the regular platoon will be worse off because of two reasons:

1) The regular platoon will have a tendency to break and scatter more than the Veterans, leaving the safety of their fox holes. On average the barrage will be able to kill more men because some of this.

2) After the barrage is over the Veterans will have a more effective fighting force. Some of the Regular men will break or panic and be useless for the next few turns when the inevitable infantry attack comes. Those who don't break or scatter will be heavily suppressed or pinned, which will seriously affect their ability to fight off the upcomming infantry attack.

The bottom line is that the Veteran platoon, on average, will be able to put up a much better defense after the barrage than the Regular platoon. In the end they may both die but the Veteran platoon will take a lot more enemy soldiers with them. Therefore they do not die the same.

[Wilhammer]

I find that regulars and greens are the best scouts, especially if the squad is split. They tend to run away when fired upon, and thus survive longer than vets and above.

Once they recover, send back out to scout. Their sole job is to get shot at anyway, so why not send the worse? Pretty soon, they will become morale basket cases, but then they become useful for holding VP sites.

The recon that runs is real useful in preventing some attrition to your forces and seems to increase the chance for the enemy to expose itself through firing simply because the guys are running away, thus staying in their sights, and since they live longer, staying in their sights. As they run further away, they increase the likelyhood that other enemy units will also expose themselves.

Vets and above tend to follow insane orders to their death, and the regulars and greens tend to run from stupidity.

The above is my work around for lack of the order "Go there, if you get shot at, withdraw".

Because of this, I tend to think the perfect company sized attack infantry force is 1/3rd scouting fodder, the rest earmarked for fire support and assaults. The 1/3rd is split up as skirmishers to find the enemy, and moves out as a cloud in front of your attacking column.

At night or fog, this changes, for the greens and regulars, or any troop for that matter, forgets what is behind them and turn their routes into suicide runs for enemy occupied positions.

From a 'real history' viewpoint, regular and green squads are the norm, while, the Veterans are rare, and the Cracks are almost non-existent, and the Elite are one in a million.

As for tankers, I prefer that at least one guy be Veteran or above, and the rest regulars, simply because tanks die so quick in this game. The best defence against tanks is not other tanks, but V/C/E RLs and Sharpshooters. Tanks are best used as portable HE dispensers. However, you just might need a great tanker to keep an enemy from being able to do standoff HE attacks with impunity.

The best fun (and 'realism')to be had in a QB, IMHO, is to let the computer purchase both sides.

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: Wilhammer ]

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40:

I have to disagree with your views in some respects. Veteran troops will not die the same. Here's a typical example:

Suppose you have two platoons, one is regular and the other is Veteran. Both are dug in in the woods. They both are pounded by a 105mm barrage for an equal amount of time. By the end of the barrage the regular platoon will be worse off because of two reasons:

1) The regular platoon will have a tendency to break and scatter more than the Veterans, leaving the safety of their fox holes. On average the barrage will be able to kill more men because some of this.

2) After the barrage is over the Veterans will have a more effective fighting force. Some of the Regular men will break or panic and be useless for the next few turns when the inevitable infantry attack comes. Those who don't break or scatter will be heavily suppressed or pinned, which will seriously affect their ability to fight off the upcomming infantry attack.

The bottom line is that the Veteran platoon, on average, will be able to put up a much better defense after the barrage than the Regular platoon. In the end they may both die but the Veteran platoon will take a lot more enemy soldiers with them. Therefore they do not die the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks for the post Pak40, and i entirely agree with you. from what i have seen, veterans will put up a better fight, and as far as infantry go, they are not all that expensive. outside of AT guns, zooks/schrek, the only other thing that i will buy as veterans are (depending on size) a couple veteran platoons. these will be my "must hold this position" guys. the vanillas will be my artillery magnets.

along those same lines, ive seen over and over again a full strength vanilla platoon stop cold a veteran sturmgruppe platoon. luck of the draw with HQ bonus'. that seems to play big into the fighting capabilities. with vanilla men, you can take a chance and hope for some good HQ bonus'. its a gamble, but it usually pays off. on atleast a few HQ's. then you have saved a lot of points and have troops that are at or above veteran level with those bonus'.

and anyways, how many times do we get the veteran leader whos bonus is one "?". when i get that with vanilla HQ, its okay because i dont expect much else. but when a veteran HQ comes up dry (no bonus :mad , it frustrating.

i do side with all the statements about the fact that a veteran tanks performance is not worth the extra 50 points or so in most cases.

has anyone else seen an example of a veteran crew being less likely to bail out of a vehicle? i know this is true for gun crews, but is it the same with tanks?

[Gen-x87H]

I am mixed on veteran status. Guns I find they are worth it as the crews usually dont flee like little school girls at the first sign of arty or a fight.

The only time I have ever used veteran troops was in a IP game. Veteran US Rifle 44 platoons. 3 of them in a 1000 point ME. They ran at the first sign of fighting. They were in a tree line overlooking the approaches to the flag and cameunder fire from VGs that were in the open than they just fled. At least 1 squad did not even take a casualty. So now I dont bother.

Tanks I am not sure either. If I have the points I may pick up a a veteran tank. If you dont get hit on a lucky first shot you have the upper hand with the higher ROF.

This game is about skill but also a little luck

Gen

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

and anyways, how many times do we get the veteran leader whos bonus is one "?". when i get that with vanilla HQ, its okay because i dont expect much else. but when a veteran HQ comes up dry (no bonus :mad , it frustrating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ugghhh, I HATE when that happens. Still a Veteran paltoon with a no bonus leader is better than a regular platoon with a no bonus leader. That's why I try and get a Company whenever possible. I will use the Company HQ as one of the platoon leaders and use the lame platoon HQ as either a scout or morar/mg leader. And now that I've seen Winters in action in Band of Brothers, I know that it's not a gamey tactic

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: Pak40 ]

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

The only time I have ever used veteran troops was in a IP game. Veteran US Rifle 44 platoons. 3 of them in a 1000 point ME. They ran at the first sign of fighting. They were in a tree line overlooking the approaches to the flag and cameunder fire from VGs that were in the open than they just fled. At least 1 squad did not even take a casualty. So now I dont bother.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. You remind me of my early days playing CM. I used to wonder if Veterans were worth the price, especially after the first time I used them which was a situation like yours. They didn't seem worth the price.

But one day, after reading this forum from guys like Madmatt and Steve (who were CM Veterans at that point) about how they choose everything veteran, I decided to give Veterans another try - and boy did they kick ass.

I now know that 9 times out of 10, Veterans will be victorious over Regulars - all other things equal.