What is so special about this game??

[Arith]

I am on the verge of purchasing Combat Mission. It looks like a great game and the reviews have been good but i was wondering what you guys find great about Combat Mission and what you think the best aspects of this game are. Thanks guys!

[Pzman]

Well lets see the best things would be... the hundreds of scenarios and mods and and and I could go all night. Those are just some of the great things about CM! :cool:

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[Maximus]

MUST...NOT...GIVE....IN...

AHHH...I...CAN'T...DO....IT

What's so great about it? EVERYTHING!!!!

It is an extremely historically researched simulation of WWII tactical combat in a full 3D battlefield.

And not only that, all the textures in the game are modable as they are simple bitmaps which are easily repaintable.

All the sounds are modable as they are simple wave files.

And I shall now duck and run for cover as the horde will most definately respond with LOTS more details.

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: Maximus ]

[Maximus]

Also what other single game has a message board that has over 265,000 Posts?

[Stalin's Organ]

What a load of hokey!!

The reason it's good is that it's good - forget the mods, the eye-candy - the game'd be just as good without it.

It's the most detailed game of WW2 tactical combat in exitance (not that it's perfect, but hey...)

For miniatures gamers like me it's finally beginning to fulfill what comuters have promised to do for so long - do the complex physics that is involved in combat so "all" I have to do is issue the orders.

It's good because it's (at least believably) realistic, complex and accurate.

It's a historical game, so it has to match history - these guys can't go out and invent a universrse and make it fit their concepts - instead their concepts have to fit the existing universe. Everyone pretty much knows what happens in "real life", so there's little or no opportunity for the writers to pull the wool over our eyes.

It just has to be good to be sellable!

[Warmaker]

For a wargame, CM is pretty easy to play. For a newcomer to wargaming, CM is no better an introduction. Yes, when you look at unit stats it may seem mind numbing at first looking at penetration values, armor, firepower, weapons, etc. It's quite easy to even jump into and start playing (don't expect to win much at first though) and soon you'll grasp the commands for each type of unit. The part that takes longer to learn is the tactics and proper use of your men and equipment, which should always be an ongoing process.

The game so far has a wide appeal to a variety of wargamers. You've got some guys here that have played into the older, hardcore wargames and it also appeals to wargamer "lites" who've played games like Close Combat and Panzer General. Usually, there's a rift between the two sides in regards to the games they play, but CM somehow puts that nice balance.

Also, though the game is MODable, the mods are primarily aimed at graphics enhancements. We've got good MOD'ers out here who churn out Hi-res mods for the people who've got fast PCs and Lo-res mods for the ones who don't. Unit statistics are not editable, so you don't have the problem of incompatibilities between players. Also, if you get CM and start d/l the mods, you'll be a MOD slut soon enough...

In-game, CM does two things for me. When trying to figure out the next set of orders, you're always worried about the results since once you start its execution, that's it until the next orders phase. You're left with the tension of watching your orders being carried out, for better or worse. You'll be there screaming to your precious tank,"You idiot! Watch out for that bazooka on your side!" Watching your orders being carried out is almost like watching a war movie, though this time you get a say at what can happen and anything bad of course is your fault

[Bluefish]

If you are even remotely interested in the Second World War this game will ruin your life. It's that good.

[Arith]

Ive been a wargammer for a while but have been away from the computer latley with work and everything. I have played all the TalonSoft battleground games and a few others. I also spent 6 years in the military so i am a true wargammer at heart and love a good fight. I also am into building models. This game seams to cater to all those interests. I like the idea. It seems very close to palying a miniatures wargame. After reading all the replys ive gotten just in the last few hours im impressed how much you guys like this game. I just placed my order... Ill leave it up to you guys to explain it to my wife when i start staying up all night and forget to work around the house

[Dunnee]

"What is so great about this game?"

Hookers and eight balls are complimentary with the purchase of the cd.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arith:

Ive been a wargammer for a while but have been away from the computer latley with work and everything. I have played all the TalonSoft battleground games and a few others. I also spent 6 years in the military so i am a true wargammer at heart and love a good fight. I also am into building models. This game seams to cater to all those interests. I like the idea. It seems very close to palying a miniatures wargame. After reading all the replys ive gotten just in the last few hours im impressed how much you guys like this game. I just placed my order... Ill leave it up to you guys to explain it to my wife when i start staying up all night and forget to work around the house <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prepare to be sucked into the vortex...

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arith:

Ill leave it up to you guys to explain it to my wife when i start staying up all night and forget to work around the house <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry...haven't got the time - too busy!

[monkeymafia]

Pizza's..I eat nothing but Pizza's

IT's THE ONLY THING THEY CAN SLIDE UNDER THE DOOR!!!

If you'd played ASL or have a interest in war games KISS UR LIFE GOODBYE!! for the 1st couple of weeks anyway

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: monkeymafia ]

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: monkeymafia ]

[John Kettler]

Arith,

Please see my post at CM Forum for a highly detailed response. When you get through with mine, assuming you haven't already ordered by then, read all the other messages in the thread.

All the best!

John Kettler

[Slapdragon]

I like to think of CM as a game that can be played by any wargaming new comer, with a simple set of commands, but which is historically accurate and versatile enough to keep an experienced gamer hooked for years, without killing you with 30 dozen manuals (aka my beloved Advanced Squad Leader). It broke new ground with its 3D design combined with operational scale, and the ability to modify the tank textures gave a whole group of frustrated model tank painters a creative outlet.

In all, it is a very classy product. Now if I can just get my wife to play....

[-Havermeyer-]

I pre-ordered CM, and haven't purchased another game since. I have spent maybe 15 hours playing old games (and that was in despair when I realized my 2 year old had hidden the disk).

The cost to use factor essentially puts $250 in your pocket in avoided game purchases.

[sukhoi]

Just don't buy this game, Because If you buy

this game, you must ruin everything, family,

work, life itself!(Like me)

I don't wanna make another vicitim of this

game like me..Well I must go because I

must finish my another 100th mission.

(Combat mission = True real wargame ever)

[karch]

Don't forget cross platform. Aside from the best (in many people's opinion) military game for Windows, it's also available for Mac and Mac and Windows players can play head to head via email or TCP/IP.

There aren't many games you can do that with. I can't play very often, but it is the only game I play when I have a chance.

Scott Karch

[sukhoi]

Just don't buy this game, Because If you buy

this game, you must ruin everything, family,

work, life itself!(Like me)

I don't wanna make another vicitim of this

game like me..Well I must go because I

must finish my another 100th mission.

(Combat mission = True real wargame ever)

[MrPeng]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arith:

I just placed my order... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CM Borg?

[Panzertruppen maddox]

Stalin's Organ wrote:</p>

What a load of hokey!! The reason it's good is that it's good - forget the mods, the eye-candy - the game'd be just as good without it.

Well, Combat Mission is a great game, but I have to disagree with that.

Graphics are an integral part of the game. After all, what is the primary method

that you interact with your PC? Feel? Sorry, there is no force feedback

available in Combat Mission. Sound? Sorry, although sound adds greatly to the

experience it is not an absolute. Smell? I guess that depends upon where you PC

is located. Taste? Let's not go there...</p>

The primary way that you interact with your PC is visual. A big part of the

Combat Mission experience is the immersion in the feel of the battle. No other

tactical WWII game does this nearly as well (for modern stuff Operation

Flashpoint looks very promising). It's ridiculous to think that CM would be

anywhere near as successful as it is without the nature of its 3D interface.

Just look at the enormous amount of "visual" mods that are available

for the game. How many sound mods are there? Only a handful. How many

statistical or informational add-ons are there? There are a few charts, lists,

and break downs available, but nothing like ASL. Combat Mission relies upon its

graphics and the simplicity of its interface to excel. That doesn't mean it's

not an excellent warfare simulation under the hood. It is, but it's hard coded

information is not readily available the way some other games are. There is a

lot going on in each turn of CM, but most of it is invisible to the player.

That's my point! Unlike ASL or something like TOAW the player relies almost

completely upon a visual appraisal of the battlefield in CM. Therefore the more

detailed and realistic that battlefield is, the more information is available to

the player as well as greatly enhancing the feel of the simulation.</p>

Saying that Combat Mission would be just as good without the graphics is like

saying a brand new sports car would be just as nice if it looked like a rusted

73 Pontiac. Ridiculous! Don't underestimate the importance of graphics in a PC

game. Many wargame companies have made that mistake in the past and the internet

is littered with their bones. Combat Mission enjoys almost a complete monopoly

of its segment of the wargame genre. Big Time Software has done a very good job

of listening to customer feedback and working to go a step further with CM2.

Let's hope they continue to do that because it's only a matter of time before

one of the big-name PC companies tries to move into this territory. CM has

brought a lot of fresh blood into the wargame segment because it appeals to not

only traditional grognards, but also gamers who have never touched a "wargame"

before. </p>

Before Take2 gutted Talonsoft

they were already working on something similar to CM. Most companies would never

even consider producing a "wagame," (almost a four letter word to many

game companies). But now that BTS has shown the first glimmer of what can be

done in this arena it's bound to draw attention. I for one hope that CM is ready

for the competition when it does arrive, and arrive it will. As I said, a big

pull of CM is the graphics. It would be a shame to lose some of those players to

a game that looked better, but didn't have a true wargame under the hood.</p>

For another interesting point of view on wargame graphics check out

"Coming Out of the 2D Closet" in the articles section of <a href="http://www.warfarehq.com" target="_blank">Warfare

HQ</a>.</p>

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler:

Arith,

Please see my post at CM Forum for a highly detailed response. When you get through with mine, assuming you haven't already ordered by then, read all the other messages in the thread.

All the best!

John Kettler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just read John's post..

AND so....

HERE, in all its glory, is that well written and delightful post:

"

John Kettler

Member

Member # 1026

posted 07-12-2000 04:03 AM

(Long,detailed reply)

Chickenhawk,

To properly answer your question, let me try to give you some perspective on myself, so that you can

then evaluate what I tell you about Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord. I am also one of those posters

you expressed concern about.

My Background

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool wargamer, having gotten started in board wargaming in 1967 at age 12.I have

wargamed with miniatures since at least 1975, playing TSR's Fast Rules and later Tractics, with many

more systems to follow.

I'm the son of a defense engineer with a deep interest in military history, got into military history,

technology, theory and practice in childhood, and have devoured it ever since, with particular emphasis

on WWII. I also spent over eleven years with Hughes and Rockwell as a professional military analyst on

numerous major weapon programs ranging from the TOW missile to the military derivatives of the

National AeroSpace Plane (NASP).

My military computer gaming was initially done on an Amiga and didn't go well (SSI's Red Lightning),

because I couldn't see what was happening on the 16 screens or whatever and got whomped. My next

computer wargaming was on my friend's Mac playing CC2. I well remember how impressed I was watching

a guy smaller than 1/285th scale belly crawling.

CM vs CC2: A Rough Comparison

Now, let me give you a rough comparison. Take CC2 as a wargaming experience and increase it by a

minimum factor of ten. This is hyperconservative. Combat Mission is nothing less than a fundamental

breakthrough in wargame design, a revolutionary synthesis of a multitude of individual developments into

a stunning, engrossing, deeply immersive, wholly original creation.

Combat Mission & Panzer Elite: Trailblazers Both But Not At All The Same

The only thing out there comparable in creativity, ingenuity and immersiveness is Panzer Elite, a highly

detailed armor sim, and the two are in no way equivalent. Combat Mission positions the player as overall

battle force commander, but he is not directly

participating in the battle, which can go as high as a reinforced battalion on a side. By contrast, in Panzer

Elite you ARE the platoon leader and must not only fight your tank but direct your wingmen, coordinate

with adjacent units, request fire support, etc. If you screw up or are simply unlucky, the last thing you

see is a big explosion. With that said, let me now justify my claim vs.CC2.

Combat Mission's Features

For starters, the entire Combat Mission game except the trees, which are sprites (major CPU hit if 3-D),

is in 3-D. That includes individual men who are equipped, dressed, move and behave quite realistically.

Squads are depicted with three figures (again, CPU issue), but are tracked by the computer down to the

individual man for casualties, morale, ammo state, etc. Troop quality ranges from raw conscripts to elite

units.

Movement is based on simultaneous mutual order issuance and execution, called WE GO, with the

computer's calculating all pertinent interactions, then simultaneously executing the turn in the form of a

60-second movie, which can be endlessly replayed from any angle until the next turn is begun. This

simultaneity eliminates all kinds of gaming dirty tricks which you may have learned to hate.

AI is multilayered, running everything from choosing a battle plan to the behavior of a squad under

fire.Though better on defense than the attack (less to compute), it is quite capable of thrashing you at

even odds and can be tailored to increase or decrease its capabilities. Play is vs. AI, hotseat, LAN (I think)

and PBEM. TCP/IP will come in a few months via free patch. Otherwise, the game release date would've

been greatly extended.

Smoke, depending on settings and system capability, is transparent or opaque, with white smoke for

screening and oily pillared black smoke for vehicle kills. Explosions are frighteningly realistic and throw up

all kinds of debris. House and building collapses throw up enormous expanding domes of dust. Fires can

be started by artillery fire, handheld AT weapon backblast, recoilless weapons, or even flamethrowers. It's

quite possible to burn down a house by firing a bazooka from it. There are bodies when squads are

eliminated, but no blood. To permit sale of the game in Germany (huge gaming market) all Nazi

symbology has been excised and stand-in graphics provided.

Except for wind (would take a Cray), environmental effects are modeled. You can play in broad daylight,

at dawn/dusk,night;in overcast, rain or snow, with attendant effects on mobility, visibility, etc. The sun is

not modeled. Don't know why.

Sound is point sourced, varies in intensity with distance, and is directional.

There are so many camera options I won't even try to list them here. Suffice it to say that you can have

everything from a God's eye view to a view padlocked to a single figure, like a tank commander. You can

even allow camera shake for that authentic "you are there" feel.

LOS modeling is real world, based on terrain and is automatically computed. Players have an LOS tool as

part of an elegant, easy to learn interface. Speaking of modeling, a wealth of excruciatingly detailed data

on weapons, armor, accuracy, projectile types, optics, armor quality, human factors and much much

more (including accurate 3-D modeling of in-flight ballistics and terminal ballistics) went into this game,

and tweaks are made when needed and properly justified. The people who made CM are themselves

gamers, served in the military themselves, consulted with many veterans and really are devoted to what

they're doing, going way beyond the extra mile to listen to their customers and field a first rate product.

Hotkeys allow you to perform a multitude of functions including removing tree renderings, smoke and

such to find units and plot moves, without affecting game play in the slightest. You can select smoke

rendering/building transparency options this way, thus allowing my anemic Gen One iMac w/ 64 MB RAM

and 2 MB VRAM to run this incredible game, just not at high resolution with all the graphic bells and

whistles those with more memory and better video boards can. Theoretically, though, it shouldn't run on

my machine at all.

The troops speak in their own languages and accents. Forces in the game include U.S., British, Germans,

Poles, Free French and Canadians. There are some 150 vehicle types in the game, beautifully rendered

and many with camouflage so good it's almost impossible to identify them in battle unless quite

close--which CAN be unhealthy--ranging from Jeeps and Kubelwagen up to Jagdtigers and Pershings.

Fire support covers the gamut from onboard platoon mortars to offboard 14" naval guns and 300 mm

rockets. Several varieties of airstrikes are available, and casualties from friendly fire of all types not only

are possible but happen often enough to make people plan their moves carefully.

Combat engineers have satchel charges, flamethrowers and can clear mines, which come in three types:

daisy chain AT (lie atop the ground) and buried AP and AT. The Axis has several types of wood and

concrete fortifications. Defenders on either side automatically start dug-in in foxholes. Target reference

points are available for preregistered artillery and mortar fire.Barbed wire is also in.

Fog of war is modeled so well that the other night I lost a whole bunch of .50 cal MG armed armored cars

trying to knock out a Marder SP antitank gun by shooting through its lightly armored superstructure.

Unfortunately, it was a Hetzer! If you can't really see something well enough to ID it, the computer will

throw up a generic ID until you can. And if you've ever read about, say, hearing movement and that

triggering artillery fire or some other response, then you'll be right at home here. The game will tell you

when something's heard. How cool is that?

The manual is a gem, 180 well organized,easily understood, properly spelled pages. And if you can't get

your answer there, there is this board (quite a few sections) and a whole Combat Mission Webring to

draw upon.

The game has a tutorial scenario, some 36 battles, a bunch of operations(six, I think), which are

minicampaigns,each consisting of as many as six battles fought on one large map, with limited troop

replacements and return of damaged (not destroyed) vehicles between battles. You also get the Quick

Battle generator--a few mouse clicks to select troop types, date, weather, terrain and battle size, and

boom! you're fighting. I have yet to play a canned battle from the game CD, since I'm so engrossed in

ginning them out in the Quick Battle generator. You can even handpick your troops. Combat Mission has

a full Scenario Editor and Map Editor, allowing you to build almost anything you can think of.

If that's not enough, dozens of new scenarios, graphic tweaks and sound mods are readily available and

are free. Strongly recommend you check some of them out at Combat Mission HQ (follow link at CMHQ

Update posting here on this board). Then there's the Combat Mission Metacampaign, which allows you to

take command of a unit and fight from D-Day until the end of the war in blind, refereed scenarios. And

let's not forget the official Combat Mission ladder series for those with intense competitive streaks.

Those Worrisome Posts

This board is awash in the thoughts, musings and sometimes rants of some very knowledgeable, often

highly opinionated people, all of whom are intensely passionate about Combat Mission,many of whom

served in the military (not just U.S. either) or serve now, many of whom waited two years for the game

to be released. This fearsome brain trust has invested thousands of unpaid hours in an effort to make

Combat Mission the best wargame ever. Period. To that end, there is an ongoing effort to provide the

players with the means in the game to perform the same tactics and give them the same combat

capabilities as their World War II counterparts.

Sadly, there are real limits on what can be done. This is partially because the game was designed to run

on mass market computers, not 1 GHz behemoths. This in turn forces things like 3-man squad

renderings to be used. Similarly, there are coding limits. Certain things could be done, were more coders

available and schedule and cost not considerations. Others are practically intractable. You can't, for

example, screen troops behind moving armor, as was often done in reality. The reason is that the code

can't handle dynamic cover (moving cover). It does, though, model a burning wreck as cover. Certain

terrain features are tough to do, too, because the game's tile size is 20 x 20 meters and many features

are much smaller than a tile, trenches, for one.

Because of the above, plus partisanship,egos, language difficulties and various other factors,this board is

a constantly roiling sea of demands,questions and complaints--all with the goal of further improving an

incredible wargame that we all love. Ultimately, though, no matter how much we huff, puff and propose,

Steve and Charles dispose. It's their game, their business, and they call the tune. They're excellent

listeners, though, and their tremendous wargame fully reflects this.

So, Chickenhawk, I wouldn't worry about all those posts; I'd worry if no one was making any.

Summing Up

This game is the single biggest threat I've ever seen emerge to board wargames and battles with

miniatures. You don't have to count hexes, add combat factors, hand track ammo, casualties or morale.

And you haven't lived until you've seen your Shermans, Stuarts and halftracks advance under fire, tank

commanders in their spinning turrets seeking hidden enemy positions, guns blazing defiance as that last

volley of suppressive fire crashes down on the town's outskirts.

You haven't lived until you've heard the dread clang that betokens a pierced tank, heard the linen ripping

sound of MG-42 fire and watched with sick apprehension as a Panzerschreck rocket, tail afire, arcs right

toward one of your tanks.

You haven't lived until you've desperately fought a bitter, frantically improvised defense against platoons

of Allied armor and swarms of infantry, wondering whether ere long you'd be hearing a Jabo whistling

down on you or the sky tearing as 105mm fire comes shrieking in.

I could go on and on, but why?

Get Combat Mission. Be happy!!!

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

"

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[gunnergoz]

Welllll, if newbies are'nt scared off by the strength and vehemence of our enthusiastic replies, then they deserve to get sucked into out little black hole of CM ecstasy!

Ya gotta love it...if we were pushing a religion we'd be under investigation by congress by now!

Pacific islanders had their cargo cults...we have a grog cult.

[Mord]

Well that's why we are respectfully,<--Grain of salt) referred to as the Church of CM on other sites.

Mord

[Krinks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunnee:

"What is so great about this game?"

Hookers and eight balls are complimentary with the purchase of the cd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I think I got jipped! I want a refund!

[Treeburst155]

The first time you successfully ambush an enemy tank with a bazooka or panzerschreck you'll know what's so great about this game.

Then you take that thrill and add to it about 100 more similar thrills and you'll understand why you probably won't need many other games on your hard drive ever again, except maybe CM2.