Yet Another SturmTiger thread: ST vs AVRE

[Gyrene]

I don't see why so many people are salivating about the chance to use the SturmTiger in CMBB while CMBO's own home wrecker, the AVRE is probably a better vehicle (Blasphemer! Quick! Get the tar and feathers!) and it doensn't have the kool aid-drinking following of the ST.

What makes the AVRE a better vehicle? Well, maybe the simple fact that you can fire 2 shots in 3 turns (I predict heart attacks will happen when a ST misses a crucial shot), the AVRE also will very likely have a lower ground pressure and move about as fast.

Granted, the AVRE doesn't have the ST's armor, but with the ST's ridiculously low ROF the chances of a light tank scooting by and scoring a dreaded "Gun Hit" is very real, if that wouldn't ruin your day, I don't know what would.

In the end of the day I think 6 or 7 shots of the AVRE's 240mm would make a bigger difference in the outcome of a battle than 1 or 2 shots from an ST.

Yes, i realize there'll be no AVRE's in CMBB, but my whole point is that this Panzer Fetish is silly, and this salivating over the ST is an excellent example of it, kudos to BTS for including such a rare vehicle to satisfy it's fans, but you Panzer worshippers frighten me.

Gyrene

[Guest Babra]

Except that the AVRE's monster shell is classed as a shaped-charge, which makes it about as effective as a rabid boy scout against anything that isn't armoured, and 100% effective against anything that is.

I wonder if it could even take out a freakin truck?

[Guy w/gun]

From the looks of the responses in other threads, I don't think many people will ever be using the ST outside of Scenarios and they're own expirimentation in QB vs AI/custom scenarios. I wonder if anyone will ever purchase one in a seriouse PBEM or TCP/IP...

[securityguard]

AVRE is more convient. ST is a rare mofo thats probably going to be pretty expensive

[Warmaker]

Wha...who?...Panzer worshippers? Where?

I myself, won't pick the ST... often. I'll use it for fun since really big explosions never go out of style, you know? Besides, with a blast like that, who needs accuracy?

As far as the AVRE and ST comparison goes, you're probably right. Gun Damage hits are a liability, but that's true with any tank. But who says I have to keep the "fat cat" at the advancing frontlines/firefights while it reloads? Nobody, so this lazy Big Cat will retire in a nice quiet little area just behind the fighting before making a grand re-entrance!

Heavy Artillery gets used up quick. Find that one big "can of worms" of defenders and you may be forced to use it then and there. With the ST, a single blast can still do the job or wreak havoc on a player's defenses. Let your main body of troops assault through. Run into another brick wall of pesky infantry? Bring up the ST again and soften them up a little and retire the ST until further needed. Like I was saying, calling in hvy.artillery takes several turns in itself, especially for the Germans without TRPs. Add to this, the amount of ammunition for the Big Berthas of CM average only 25 rounds (not sure, but 14in. naval guns have less than 20, right? Never used Nav.Guns before, but I have been on the receiving end though). To really soften up a target good, you practically have to use all those big rounds on that one fire mission. With the ST, you get massive artillery on map, and on call in several turns (reload & short travel time to make that grand appearance). You're definitely not going to use all of it's ammo on one game, much less one target. Even if the enemy isn't killed, surely they'll be broken, panicked, etc. but at the very least pinned. Makes the job of your troops that much easier.

The AT role isn't what the ST is made for, but if armor is in the vacinity of the blast, well you may get lucky and knock them out or get them immobilized. Besides, knocking tanks out is the job of other panzers, not the Sturmtiger.

Just my $0.02

[PzKpfw 1]

Heh it's pretty hard to miss with a 38cm rocket with the blast radi & after shock

Regards, John Waters

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wonder if it could even take out a freakin truck? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Babra, I have no clue as far as CM goes, but it seems like a waste of a shot.

Many people are comparing the ST's round to a Naval 14", was the ST's round as heavy as a Battleship's round? If so, than we'd better hope the ST can fire the thing far enough away not to knock itself out.

Gyrene

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

Nobody, so this lazy Big Cat will retire in a nice quiet little area just behind the fighting before making a grand re-entrance!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it a wholly direct fire weapon ?

I thought it was a short range rocket launcher capable of high angle fire ...

So if CMBB allows platoon HQs and the like to spot for vehicle mounted indirect fire weapons it probably can stay behind cover while it finds its range. And won't your opponent love that

it lands short :eek:

it lands long :eek:

it lands on the map

[Sascha]

From www.achtungpanzer.com

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sturmtiger was armed with short-barrelled 38cm Raketenwerfer 61 L/5.4, breech-loaded mortar which launched a short-range (4600-6000 meters) high-explosive rocket projectile. Its armament was originally developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig from Kriegsmarine's depth charge launcher. For local defense 7.92mm MG34 was mounted in the 150mm thick front plate. Sturmtiger could demolish any building or other target with a single shot but it could only carry 14 rocket projectiles (345-351kg/each) in racks inside the superstructure (12 to 13 in the racks and one in the launcher). The vehicle was equipped with a hand operated lifting crane used to load the gun with the help of the entire crew. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sturmtigers proved be an excellent defensive weapon and had to be either destroyed by a heavy artillery bombardment or an air attack. It is reported that once single shot fired by Sturmtiger from PzStuMrKp 1001 completly destroyed three M4 Shermans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here'sthe entire page.

Sascha

[Gyrene]

4600-6000 meter range is much better than I thought. What kind of accuracy at that range, though?

Gyrene

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've purchased exactly 1 AVRE in my whole time playing CM and I will never take one again. They are completely worthless IMO. No HE, coupled with low ROF, means they don't do all that much damage against non-armored targets and they can't hit a tank or bunker unless they are right next to it. A waste of space on the battlefield. From some of the things said in other threads it appears it may not be modeled correctly in the game. It's hard to imagine the real thing was the total piece of junk it is in the game.

The Sturmtiger will be better because it will at least have a chance of doing something usefull.

[Stacheldraht]

Fwiw:

"The [sturmtiger] weapon system was used at relatively close range, so the frontal armor was up to 150mm thick, and the front glacis was steeply angled. The rocket-assisted projectiles could be fired in either direct or indirect fire mode." The ST was designed "based on German combat experience in Soviet cities and the need for a very large close-range assault weapon."

--German Tanks of World War II in Color, Michael Green, Thomas Anderson, and Frank Schulz (MBI, 2000)

"Their [sT's] main armament was adjustable in elevation through an 85 degree range, from horizontal up to almost vertical, and through 20 degrees in traverse, both adjustments being made manually, via a worm-and-wheel/rack and pinion drive, and was a radically different design from that of any similar projector seen before." Projectiles could be fired out to 6000m.

--The Tiger Tank, Roger Ford (Motorbooks International, 1998)

I've also seen the range listed at 4600m and different books list the ammo count as 12, 13, or 14.

I've yet to see a reliable source that discusses the reload time, though I imagine some of Jentz's books might state it with some authority.

[Ex Bellator]

I've got to admit I was disappointed with the AVRE in CMBO as well. Classing it's shell as a hollow charge really hamstrings this machine.

German infantry in particular (unlike in CMBO) were terrified of them according what I've read. The shell looked very similar to a dustbin (trash-can), and when it was fired it's low velocity meant that people could sometimes see it turning over end over end as it looped toward it's target. It had to be manually loaded into the muzzle (it was a mortar, not a breech loader) which obviously caused problems when reloading in front of the enemy. It also was intended for short range use only.

This is sheer heresy but I thought that Close Combat 2 - A Bridge too Far had a better grip of what the AVRE was capable of - they were devastating in that game. IMHO it should be simply treated as one muther HE shell which kills with a huge blast.

Unfortunately BTS got this particular AFV plain wrong so probably your Sturmtiger would be more useful.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

4600-6000 meter range is much better than I thought. What kind of accuracy at that range, though?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The rocket was somewhat inaccurate as it approached maximum range. As the propellant was used up the center of gravity shifted, causing the rocket to lose accuracy as it continued. Keep in mind, though, that the ST’s mission was to engage at relatively close ranges. I would think that this would encompass most CM maps.

[Juardis]

Couple of questions. Last year I asked about riding around in a tank with a round already loaded in the breach. It seems to me that CMBO does not model that since it always seems to delay firing that first shot about as long as the delay to fire subsequent shots. Here we read an account of the ST riding around with a shell in the breach already. Therefore, if modeled correctly, the first shot could be fired on the first turn and the 2nd shot not until turn 8 (or whenever). That gives you 2 shots in 8 turns. Slow, yes, but not *too* slow.

AVRE? I've never understood why it's shell was hollow casing. Why is that? Isn't it supposed to be a close support vehicle for busting up infantry or buildings?

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Juardis wrote:

AVRE? I've never understood why it's shell was hollow casing. Why is that? Isn't it supposed to be a close support vehicle for busting up infantry or buildings?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a bunker-buster. I imagine that an HE round, however big, would not be as effective against pillboxes in CM as a hollow charge, and therefore BTS were compelled to model it this way. I don't think it was ever intended as a front-line combat vehicle, especially when you consider how vulnerable the loader is. Like the other AVRE's (what we are discussing is the Petard mortar, but there were other Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers), such as the mine flail and bridge layer, they were intended to do their work under combat conditions, but not necessarily when people are actually shooting at them.

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

It's a bunker-buster. I imagine that an HE round, however big, would not be as effective against pillboxes in CM as a hollow charge, and therefore BTS were compelled to model it this way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh, that explains it then. Thanks. But if it's a bunker buster, wouldn't also be good for killing troops in heavy buildings? My experience is that it is marginally effective at killing men inside buildings. I guess with bunkers the volume is so small that the blast radius doesn't have to be large, but with buildings, there's much more space to hide in?

[MikeyD]

Hmmm... StrumTrg weapon had an 85 degree elevation? I sure hope CM models this, you fire the round straight up during one turn and it lands during the next!

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

4600-6000 meter range is much better than I thought. What kind of accuracy at that range, though?

Gyrene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I have read concerning ST's operating with 1001, the 3 ST's that were operational took out bunkers that US troops were using in the captured west wall fortifications as well as US inf &artillery positions with 'High-angle fire' & the imfaumous 3 Shermans in one shot incident as well.

Regards, John Waters

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Juardis wrote:

I guess with bunkers the volume is so small that the blast radius doesn't have to be large, but with buildings, there's much more space to hide in?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the issue is that in order to clear a bunker you just need to penetrate its concrete skin, which is what a Petard does (and what hollow charges do, which is presumably why BTS modelled the round this way, whether or not it really was in reality). Other tanks have to try and get a shell through the firing slit. A building is much easier to destroy, but much more difficult to clear.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>MikeyD wrote:

Hmmm... StrumTrg weapon had an 85 degree elevation? I sure hope CM models this, you fire the round straight up during one turn and it lands during the next!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's an example from Terence Wise, D-Day To Berlin.

Notice the winch – I assume this is for just taking the rounds on board.

[Ellros]

<<Yes, i realize there'll be no AVRE's in CMBB>>

I don't know about you, but the KV-2 with a 152mm gun sort of takes the AVRE's place, IMHO.

[Snake Eyes]

The SU-152 and ISU-152, aka Conquering Beast, are the Russian's big boomers. Fits right in with the Russian tactical doctrine, "If a hammer won't do the job, get a bigger hammer." However, they carried only 20 rounds.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ]

[Simon Fox]

David Aitken wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's a bunker-buster. I imagine that an HE round, however big, would not be as effective against pillboxes in CM as a hollow charge, and therefore BTS were compelled to model it this way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree, it's not a very good bunker buster at all, it's simply not big enough for most reinforced concrete bunkers. If it wobbled end over end in flight (I have read that as well) it is hard to see it working too well as something directionl as hollow charge is it? ARVE crews would typically manually place beehive or wade charges for busting bunkers or concrete walls. British SOP for bunkers was tank main gun fire at the slit or crocodiles not using the petard. You are correct to point out that it was not strictly an assault vehicle but a multipurpose engineering vehicle. I would have to say that it's main contribution would be laying bridges and fascines.

[Stalin's Organ]

Actually it wasn't a bunker buster - it was an obstable clearer, and did sterling service on the beaches. After that it was most commonly used to carry fascines and stuff.

Still, a 40lb HE charge isn't peanuts - it's more HE than a 155mm shell would carry I think, so it should have a fair bit of effect!

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

Still, a 40lb HE charge isn't peanuts - it's more HE than a 155mm shell would carry I think, so it should have a fair bit of effect!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a bigger shell (with a LOT more stuff inside) than a shell from a German Pocket Battleship. Even if it really is a shaped charge, it's still gonna huff and puff and blow the whole damn house down.