Enough of Gamey Stuarts !!! (rant)

[Blenheim]

Rant here.

OK, I love taking those small fast metal boxes when I play as allied, but this weekend I had enough. Playing with Germans in a nearly all armour fast QB (3000 points) my opponent got about 12 of them....

Imagine: Stuart Kamikaze rush, massive version, against my 3 KT. Yesh, I blow up 7 of the Stus, but... 3 KT gone !!!!

Gamey!!! Gamey !!!! (crying in despair)

[CavScout]

I hope this is joke! 12 Stuarts against 3 King Tigers... who should be yelling "gamey"?

[Pvt.Tom]

IMHO KT are way over rated, reload and turret are so slow, I just played a battle where Shermans kicked my KTs ass, they swarmed all over me and BOOM, side penetrations. Not worth the money.

My small Rant

Pvt.Tom

[Terence]

just curious...

When did the Germans use King Tigers, and when they used them, how did the Allies defeat them? With air power?

Terence

[alla_keefek]

s.Pz.Abt.503 had 12 KTs in July 44 in Normandy. This was the only KT unit in Normandy. They where also used during the Battle of the Bulge.

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"Alla Keefek" is a Brit soldier's corruption of an Arabic phrase. It

means "couldn't be bothered". A Firefly of the 4th County of London Yeomanry had it painted on the rear of the turret. This Firefly was knocked out by a Tiger from 501st SS.

http://www.geocities.com/alla_keefek/

[Blenheim]

Ohhh... yeah... I was kind of gamey at the 3 BFG cats at that part... But imagine how at any scenario 12 stuarts should work. I do that from time to time, and it's annoying for the German, really...

"Hey, I got a Human/Stuart Wave attack!!!"

And it's gamey. Imagine that you're inside on of those tanks, and somebody tolds you two lead 12 of them against a King Tiger, or whatever... Wowwwww. I'd like to hear the answer from the guy riding the Stu....

[Guest Ace]

Originally posted by Blenheim:

"Hey, I got a Human/Stuart Wave attack!!!"

And it's gamey. Imagine that you're inside on of those tanks, and somebody tolds you two lead 12 of them against a King Tiger, or whatever... Wowwwww. I'd like to hear the answer from the guy riding the Stu....

Facing the 3 KTs, the only way you could try to defeat them would be to try to continually outflank them. With 12 Stuarts at my disposal, I would try to maneuver as close as possible under cover, then pop out all at once from all sides. Not exactly a kamikazee charge, but it's the only way to take out any of the KTs IMO.

[slate43]

So Blenheim,

What would you aquire/do next time you anticipated going up against a swarm of Stus? You stated a "gamey" problem, what would you do to turn that situation around to solve it, without crying foul? How would you deal with it? 5 KTS?

[grunto2]

Originally posted by Blenheim:

Ohhh... yeah... I was kind of gamey at the 3 BFG cats at that part... But imagine how at any scenario 12 stuarts should work. I do that from time to time, and it's annoying for the German, really...

"Hey, I got a Human/Stuart Wave attack!!!"

And it's gamey. Imagine that you're inside on of those tanks, and somebody tolds you two lead 12 of them against a King Tiger, or whatever... Wowwwww. I'd like to hear the answer from the guy riding the Stu....

the americans can really surprise you with fast-moving firepower. the way to defeat stuarts and stuff is with 20mm aa, 37mm aa, aa halftracks, cheap recoilless rifles and pupchens and panzershrecks.

use the aa weapons to hit them in the side when they try to sneak through your lines.

use the recoilless rifles from any angle.

a 50mm AT gun can also deal with a stuart.

in defense king tigers (any tanks, really) have to have this kind of support on their flanks or they're toast.

the best situation for a king tiger is on a large map where they have good los.

if there are stuarts crawling all over your positions then i would expect you to have problems. your friend must have had a great time, taking out 3 kts at the loss of 7 stuarts.

...wait a minute... i was just looking at the 37mm and it says it 'does' 68 mm inside 100 meters.

on the other hand the king tiger's minimum armor is 80mm. are you sure there weren't some bazookas lurking around? they 'do' 90mm.

andy

[Maximus]

Hi guys, my first post in the last two days. Been playing EU a bit.

Anyway, Blenheim, I don't get it. You come on here complaining about a trick that you pull yourself? Who's gonna take this rant seriously? Please.

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[The Commissar]

Large numbers of Stuarts were common. The Allies tended to mass-produce their tanks and the one of the main advantages they had over the Germans was sheer mass.

I think most Cav units used Stuarts, if Im not mistaken. Plus regular Army. So they were very common.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Col Deadmarsh]

Frankly I didn't know Stu's were able to take out KT's at any range.

But considering it's possible, how can you come on here Blenheim and bitch about this? From what you've told us, I gather that those 3 KT's were your only armor. Now, how flexible is that plan?

You gotta protect those things on the outside because if they get beat there, it's all over. Try using a more flexible selection of units next time and if you're gonna have 3 KT's, have some small guns or schrecks protecting their sides and rear against possible attacks like what just happened to you.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[ParaBellum]

Anyone who fields KTs and other "heavy" units without providing decent flank cover just deserves to get toasted...

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[killmore]

Why use Stuarts?

Why not british vehicle (name escapes me) with 40mm gun?

I had that 40mm gun kill 2 Tigers from the front (weak spot hits) at 300 meters. It is probably cheaper. Use them thay are great!

[Joe Shaw]

Frankly I didn't know Stu's were able to take out KT's at any range.

I threw a quick test together just for giggles. At 230m, my three Stuarts popped the side of a KT every time within one minute. Hardly scientific, of course, but within the game it's very possible.

Joe

edited to remove extraneous "from the side"

[This message has been edited by Joe Shaw (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by killmore:

Why use Stuarts?

Why not british vehicle (name escapes me) with 40mm gun?

The mighty Daimler! My second favourite vehicle after the Stuart. (Well, actually the Staghound <ahem>, but...)

My prime Daimler moment, and the only decent moment at all in my worst defeat ever, was a clean one-shot kill against a JgPz IV at...oh, I forget, but it was fairly long...something between 300 and 600m. Pretty respectable for a pop gun 2 pdr.

In my best victory against a competent human opponent, my tank assets were five Stuarts. His assets were a Panther, a couple of Pz IVs, a JgPz IV and the inevitable "Pair of Pumas". Until I had tagged his armour and infantry AT assets, I did no rushing about with the fragile Stuarts. I kept them in hiding. After I was sure I'd located and identified all the enemy threats, I brought them out en masse, but cautiously, and went hunting. I had a bad moment when the Panther appeared in their front, but a freak weak spot penetration with the first shot ended that threat immediately. When it was done, all the German armour was lost for the loss of one Stuart. I may never buy Shermans again...

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"Za Rodentia!"

[Jagdwyrm]

I actually just did a test for this...to compare the stuart to the chaffee for killing heavy tanks. clear flat maps...Round one 5 stuarts vs 1 KT=5 dead stuarts...Round 2 5 chaffees vs 1 KT=3 dead chaffees 1 dead KT. Of course this wouldnt always be the result. Just an experiment I did.

[chrisl]

I did a similar one with 15 stuarts against 3 King Tigers. after two turns of contact: 6 dead stuarts, 3 dead KT. It was more than a little contrived though, since I played it hotseat and let the KTs just sit there and shoot (though their backs were sort of against some trees).

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"I HATE THIS GAME, YOU AND THIS SCENARIO" -jd

[grunto2]

so the 37mm penetrates 65mm (did i say 68 before?) at <=100 meters.

is it too powerful then in the game if stuarts are taking out king tigers?

andy

[Guest MantaRay]

Teach ya to buy KT's. =}

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[chrisl]

I think they were all weak spot hits. There were plenty of ricochets, and one was immobilized before being destroyed.

It doesn't particularly bother me--if you have that many Stuarts within 100 m something is seriously wrong. They could practically ram it and jam their gun in the turret ring and fire...

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"I HATE THIS GAME, YOU AND THIS SCENARIO" -jd

[gunnergoz]

There's an interesting anecdote in one of the Battle of the Bulge books, perhaps MacDonalds, where I distinctly remember that an M-8 scout car literally rear-ended a King Tiger in the fog early in the offensive. As the M-8 driver was frantically backing away, the commander was pumping round after round of 37mm APC into the rear of the KT at point-blank, paint-chips-in-your-face range. Eventually one round penetrated the engine compartment and brewed the KT before the KT's turret could be brought to bear.

Whatta rush that had to be!

[Warmaker]

I can kind of see your frustration, but believe me the Germans have excellent AT weaponry in every level so dealing with those Stuart gnats is quite easy. From what your description gives me it seems you two were in a meeting engagement or you're on the defensive. Meeting engagement is quite simple. Jagdpanzer IVs/PzKpfwIV's/Hetzers(VERY cheap) can be easily purchased by you if you were doing all armor clashes. Keep them on the flanks of your Koenigstigers. Even advancing infantry with their Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks can be problematic to those Stuarts.

On the defensive, as the Germans you have so much more options partly because your ATGs if not are among the best in the CM. The 88mm is overkill, but the 75mm can take all comers, even their "highly touted" Pershings. The 50mm is the cheap tool that can be the bane to those annoying Stuarts. High ROF for an ATG and can penetrate those death cans. With luck a flank shot to a Sherman can turn them into lighters. Infantry gaurding the flanks on the defense of your KTs are immensely helpful. Ambush anybody? Also, keep in mind the terrain. If you insist on keeping the KTs close together, maybe an online formation would be good. The Germans have so many tools to pop open the Allied soda cans the great danger lies in favoring the glory weapons like the Tigers I/II, Panthers, etc. Don't forget the simple Hetzers, ATGs, and 'schrecks which IMO are waaay more than enough to deal with the light armors. BTW, if you're annoyed by players using the gamey trick of racing a suicidal halftrack across the screen, here's a simple fix. Any gun or vehicle mounting 20mm or 37mm AA guns. End of story so you can concentrate on popping open soda cans then drink heavily in celebration.

Oh, and don't be discouraged about the "nonsense" of not buying the Koenigstigers. They'll bail you out of LOTS of trouble(at high points cost naturally). Or you can use them as expensive bait in the defense? Why? Upon ID'ing them the opposing Allied player will more than likely try to throw what assets he can to destroy such a threat. This is where your AT traps and ambushes come into play. A highly creative mind is not just for artists and Hollywood.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-20-2001).]

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

There is no evidence that 503s IIs ever saw combat in Normandy. "In July" is somewhat misleading, since it was the very end of July that the KTs were authorised to them, and they probably hadn't reached the front - if they ever did. Late August in the Falaise fighting there might have been one company of the things roaming about. But no Allied unit ever reported encountering any.

In the Bulge, the Germans had 150 of the things start to finish, and they were definitely in combat. Terence asked a fine question, about how they were actually dealt with. Not by armored Banzai charges.

1/3rd of all the Tiger IIs in the Bulge fighting fought with Peiper and were knocked out with his force. Only a few of those were KO'ed in combat, at a couple of fights. In one fight, some U.S. infantry got 4 76mm AT guns on a height looking down into a town where a platoon of these beasties were, and knocked them out.

In CM, the 76mm AP will take them out from any angle but the front, as long as the range is short. 1 km mebe, 500 yards definitely. A 76mm "T" round can go through the turret front at ranges under 500 yards. The front hull, they can't deal with the angle rather than the thickness, which means they will only go through if shooting downward. I don't know if these AT guns were firing "T" ammo, or just got side shots because they were opening up from ambush.

Others may or may not have been among the ~5-10 tanks Peiper lost to air attack. At times 60 P-47s would go after just a piece of his column, but most of the time the weather was too bad for this to help much. And when air showed up, the Germans would generally pull back, hide the tanks, and then come back at night.

Another fight Peiper's Tigers were in saw them attacking a U.S. held town, along with Panthers and Pz IVs. The Germans sent infantry first, but it was pinned in some open fields outside the town (not too wide, but like a strip around it) by MG and infantry fire. So they sent up the tanks. Peiper had ~100, he wasn't going to run out.

The defenders there had 2 90mm AA guns, 8 76mm AT guns, and 3 57mm AT guns. During the battle 10 Shermans showed up to help. There was also infantry, most of a battalion. The Germans lost 6 heavy tanks charging them into the town. The 90mms got a couple more beyond the town. In return, they overran the 76mms and cut up 2 companies of infantry pretty bad, and took the place. The defending commander said the problem was "we didn't have as many AT guns as they had tanks". They also didn't have artillery support, because of where various guns were. The U.S. didn't lose any of the Shermans; they stayed behind the infantry. They fired off a lot of their ammo covering them, but avoided any close engagement. The 90mms taking out a couple of tanks beyond the town, blocked the road and ended the pursuit.

In another place where the U.S. did have arty, the pattern went more like the way the U.S. wanted it to. The Germans came in with tanks and infantry together. The 105mms went to work and just plastered the German infantry, stripping them off of the tanks. When a few tanks pressed on anyway into the U.S. held town, there were ATGs and 90mm sighted down some of the lanes, and SP tank destroyers and bazooka teams hunting them through the streets. A few of the lead tanks came in and died, and the rest withdrew. To give you an idea of how impossible German infantry support was when this combo was working, one battalion supporting that fight fired 3000 rounds 105mm in the day's battle.

The reason this last mentioned fight was important, was its location. It was in a town Peiper had already passed through, and cut the road behind him. That fight described, was holding off an attempt to reopen it. Peiper didn't have all his tanks for that, just the ones he could spare at the rear of his column.

They blew up the bridges in front, and then they snaked in the infantry battalions behind to do the number just described. Then it was a matter of time. A Tiger II gets lousy gas milage, about 2 gallons to the mile "highway". Within a day or two, Peiper couldn't move his tanks.

It was still a powerful cornered force, though. The U.S. found that out in several attacks meant to draw the "net" around him tighter. Basically, the terrain was tight. The Germans didn't set up where there were fields of fire like the U.S. did. They set up to block the roads, at their bends or where they climbed out of a gully. Hull down with only the front armor facing, they could kill any U.S. tank sent after them. The U.S. tanks couldn't get off the roads to maneuver. The terrain was too steep and heavily wooded.

So when the U.S. did have artillery, and the terrain was defensible, what arose was a kind of defense dominance. When the U.S. was attacking, the German heavy tanks could strip the tank support off of the attacking U.S. infantry. Then the U.S. infantry couldn't easily push on, or it got shot up by tanks and infantry both. When the Germans were attacking, the U.S. artillery would strip the German infantry off of the tanks. Without the infantry, the tanks could be killed with flank shots if they kept advancing, in the tight cover. Unless there were a boatload of them, and they took some losses even then.

Incidentally, I don't recommend Stuarts to charge KTs. Even Sherman 75s have serious trouble taking out KTs from the side at point blank. What you want to kill KTs, is 76mm, 90mm, or 17-lb guns *and* a flank shot. Bazookas can also do it, again with a flank shot - but they aren't anywhere near as likely to KO them as the better AT guns.

As for the 37mm, I have seen them (in tests) get 1 kill of a KT (broadside hull lucky and after numerous bounces), and a few immobilization shots. The 37mm is not rated to penetrate the beastie anywhere, even with 90% armor quality taken into account. Almost every shot will bounce.

The right vehicle to kill KTs with flanking charges is not the Stuart but the M18 Hellcat. Its 76mm can punch the holes. T rounds at close range will even go through the turret front, under 500 yards as most CM shots are. M18s only cost 110 as regulars, vs. 95 for a Stuart, so buying the Stuarts is kinda stupid, if winning is the idea.

Another fellow asked how common the Stuarts were. Very, but their use for combat wasn't the same in all units. The standard tank formations had a company of 17 Stuarts for each battalion, enough to have a 5-Stuart platoon scout for each tank company if that was desired. In the 2nd and 3rd armored divisions there were even more of the critters, with 2 full battalions of them (each 3 companies) to 4 medium tank (Sherman) battalions (@3 companies). In addition, the cavalry had 1 company of 17 tanks in the battalion.

But all these Stuarts were not always used for heavy combat. Some units used them that way, mixed right into the columns with the mediums, to scout for them tactically. But others used them for all sorts of other kinds of lighter duty, from OP tank to call artillery fire, to ammo hauler, to messenger, to field ambulance. The attraction was good off-road movement ability, and the ability to move through areas being shelled, neither of which trucks could do.

I hope this is interesting.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

But no Allied unit ever reported encountering any.

If you mean encountering in the combat sense you may be correct. I have an account by a British infantryman in one of my books at home though, stating that they were the first to capture one of the KTs in Normandy. Was abandoned at the time.

As for the original rant - what do you expect your opponent to do? Throw up his arms when he sees your KTs and surrender? Not bloody likely. Get a grip.

Next time buy a decent, more historical mix of forces as was pointed out here before and you'll go home laughing.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 03-20-2001).]