COMBAT MISSIONS: Armour Tactics - King Tiger!

[Manx]

The next AFV to star in COMBAT MISSIONS on-going look at Armour Tactics & Usage in CMBO is to feature the biggest, baddest cat on the CM Battlefield - The King Tiger. Do you make it growl when you have it in your skillful hands?...or, does your complete lack of tactical awareness make it purr softly?.

Either way, please use this thread to express your opinions on this awesome piece of German engineering.

Comments will be placed on the COMBAT MISSIONS : ARMOUR section of the site in the next week or two.

BTW - I have just found the p/w to my old username (Manx), so i will be reverting back to it and discarding the newer one (Manx_CM).

TIA

[Terence]

I imagined that after my other posts on what a rotten player I am, anything I say about tactics will be treated with skepticism.

However, I've been doing a lot of playtesting recently with a scenario of mine -- rather a contrived but fun battle that features a KT in its lair, which is a steep sided valley and a layered defense of dug in troops, pill boxes and AT guns.

(Its nothing that would ever happen in reality, but a tactical challenge intended to be winnable and fun for either side by a creative player, so please no slings and arrows from the reality grogs.)

The point of this self-aggrandizing remark is that the scenario maximizes the strengths of the King Tiger, while providing limited opportunity for the allied attacker to explot its weaknesses, which is I suppose what Manx would like me to get around to...

See, the front armor of the King Tiger is about as strong as anything you will see in the game, but the sides and back are more vulnerable. It can be defeated from the front (the Firefly 17-lber gun can drill right through the turret armor) but its not a sure thing, or even all that likely so anyone considering a face to face gunfight should remember that the KTs 88mm cannon is pretty tough.

Another weakness of the KT is its abysmally slow turret rotation. In QBs against the AI, I've had tanks at 400 meters distance or so scuttle from cover to cover in full view of the KT without ever having it shoot. The tanks are just moving too swiftly for the turret to swivel.

And if you are trying to defeat a KT, a pincer attack of fast moving assets around it is a good move. It will probably turn one way or the other to engage and that will expose its "vulnerable" side.

What's true for a fast moving Sherman is even more true (thank god) for speedy tank destroyers, some half tracks and small fighting vehicles like Universal Carriers or Wasps.

Slower tanks like the Churchills and Cromwells, however, have a hard time outflanking the KT.

So a player who buys or ends up with a KT in a scenario should put it in a spot where it can engage at long range, where a small movement in its turret can cover a large section of the battlefield, where its flanks are protected and where it has a covered route to displace if pressure on the flanks gets too high, or if the Allied player decides to call in air strikes or artillery.

Also (and this goes for other tanks too) creative use of Hunt and Reverse commands from a fully concealed position can minimize the time the tank is exposed at all.

Conversely, someone enganging a KT would be well advised to:

-use the speed that many allied AFVs are blessed with to try to flank the beast,

--to use more plentiful Allied artillery to blind it with smoke. Using regualar artillery and hoping for a top hit or a mobility kill seems to be a lot less of a sure thing, unless you have really big guns

or

--hope like hell for a lucky shot through the turret or something before your Firefly gets turned into flaming junk. This option should be reserved for Allied players with lots of tanks.

--wait until 45 and bring in some Pershings...

That about covers my knowlege. I will gratefully acknowlege any corrections or modifications to what I've put above, and will now subside, confident that others will add a great deal more useful information to my small start.

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]

[Jarmo]

Just don't get overconfident if you have one of these.

It's tough but if you let the enemy shoot it repeatedly, even

a King will break down. So no going against a huge enemy fleet.

Just use it like you would use any other slow tank.

Always have something else to cover it's flanks, it's too

valuable to lose over some stupid accident.

The King Tiger has a certain presence that will throw

your enemy into confusion and panic. Even if it doesn't actually

do anything..

[M. Bates]

Be careful with this kitty, it has very fragile frontal armour and a poor gun.

Try to outflank your opponent by driving around the sides of his Shermans.

Don't be afraid to drive the King Tiger into congested town areas.

When on the attack, reverse towards the enemy: this will cause confusion, enabling the King Tiger to quickly swing its turret 180º and kill the enemy.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

Try to outflank your opponent by driving around the sides of his Shermans.

Don't be afraid to drive the King Tiger into congested town areas.

When on the attack, reverse towards the enemy: this will cause confusion, enabling the King Tiger to quickly swing its turret 180º and kill the enemy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I nominate Bates for the Custer Prize for Tactical Brilliance.

[CombinedArms]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

I imagined that after my other posts on what a rotten player I am, anything I say about tactics will be treated with skepticism.

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Terence,

Given your extremely lucid discussion above, it's hard to believe you're as bad a player as you make out to be....

[CombinedArms]

Bates, on the other hand, is obviously a sinisterly clever fellow who always plays Allies.

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[109 Gustav]

I guess Bates is not only a (insert comment about trying to get me banned) but also a lousy tactician.

Anyway, the best way to use the king tiger is to keep it a good way back and snipe at targets with that big 88mm gun. Staying far away from enemy tanks will not only reduce the cance of a frontal penetration, but will also minimize the effects of the king's slow turret.

When advancing, it's usually wise to have a pair of hetzers, StuGs, pz IVs, or even Marders protecting the king's flanks from stray shermans.

The king tiger is a good tank for use against infantry, but it costs so much that its role has to be tank killing. The 88 packs a large blast, and you are more or less immune from zook penetrations. Still, you shouldn't get carried away and charge headlong into every platoon of inf you see; it only takes one grenade to immobilise the monster.

[Manx]

Thanks Gus...that's much better!

[Molotov]

I once had a Stuart kill my KT from 500 meters. he shot at the rear turret when it was swung to the side.

[Ellros]

Don't ignore zooks. They can hurt a KT from side or rear, especially when inside 100 meters. Don't take a KT into city streets if you think there are enemy infantry lurking. You're asking for it then.

[Dunnee]

I knocked out two KT's in a village at 140m in 1m. . with three stuarts. . bet.

[lcm1947]

yesh, I once hit a dove with a 22 pistol while flying ( the dove was the one flying ) but I wouldn't bet on ever doing it again.

[Dunnee]

touche. . .dick.

[Hussar]

Terence

The Cromwell wasnt slow'

Max speed 40mph

Max cross country speed 18mph (approx)

max for a Sherman 24-29mph

cross-country 15-20mph

The Churchill yes, the Cromwell no, as the pix of them speeding down the lanes during the breakout across Belgium show..

[KiwiJoe]

Place it at the back corner of the map. Make sure it has a building or hill covering its 1 exposed flank. Unless there are 17 pounder with tungsten around you will rain supreme. If the map doesnt suit stand-off tactics then make sure to use its fear factor to full advantage. Make the enemy expose/use as much of his resourses as possable in trying to kill you. Yo-yo over a hill ridge and generally piss off your enemy and detract him from your other units.

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: KiwiJoe ]

[Warmaker]

The Koenigstiger excels in long range duels and if possible engage targets this way. Its 88mm gun can take anything on and the heavy armor will allow you to laugh at any frontal (and even flank) shots. Like any other tank, do not venture into congested terrain without your own infantry present. Whatever you do don't let the heavy armor make you overconfident and let the KT just sit there and take a pounding. Sooner or later there'll be a lucky "Gun Damage" shot.

On the defense a Koenigstiger can truly excel, where it's slow speed and mobility are of less concern. I try to shun away from using it as a mere pillbox. You may try to keep it as a reserve to counter any attacks by your opponent. A King Tiger suddenly appearing on the flank of your attack is a garaunteed recipe for disaster. On the defense, be sure to keep a cheap security force to watch it's flanks. Puppchens/50mm ATGs/'schrecks/infantry half-squads/a combination of these are quite effective. Expect a determined flanking maneuver once the Allied player identifies a King Tiger. You can bet he'll divert many resources towards its destruction. Or if you're a scheming bast**d use the King Tiger as very expensive bait. As I said before the KT will attract LOTS of attention, i.e. flanking maneuvers or other creative means. With use of the terrain and your other units you can set lots of clever ambushes fields of fire of expected avenues of approach for their quest to knock out a King.

One more thing... in muddy/snowy ground conditions, be careful and if possible stick to roads. The immense weight of the Koenigstiger will bog it down quite easily.

[Soddball]

King tiger - infuriatingly slow turret. As everyone else has said, keep the damn thing well back, or in overwatch, and make sure nobody can flank it or it's going to spend more time turning its turret than firing.

The KT is vulnerable to hollow-charge from the Churchill VIII (or Cromwell VIII) with 95mm gun. I know this is the case for every tank (125mm penetration, 0 degrees at 2km range) but people have mentioned the firefly and tend to forget the churchill and cromwell.

KT's aren't vulnerable to light fire from stuarts, greyhounds, daimlers or other vehicles - although occasional lucky hits can knock out a KT.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Terence,

Given your extremely lucid discussion above, it's hard to believe you're as bad a player as you make out to be....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Combined old bean,

Talk is cheap. Anyone can pontificate on the bbbs.

Its when I take to the field that my incompetence truly shines.

I think of it as sort of a military dyslexia.

I shouldn't get things wrong, but somehow I do...

[Terence]

Originally posted by Hussar:

Terence

The Cromwell wasnt slow'

Max speed 40mph

Max cross country speed 18mph (approx)

_______

I stand corrected. Apologies to anyone I may have misled.

[Blenheim]

Well, I always have huge problems with this soda can (heavily armored soda can). In fact I am much more effective with the good old Mk IV... And that´s just because overconfidence.

It is really difficult not to feel an unstop

pable juggernaut when you take a KT to the battle, and this is from my point of view one of its risks. It is really powerful, so when I take this thinguie and try to use its 88 I always become a bit careless. And you know what happens when you do this.... BOUM. Damm, I forgot that I had a Sherman in my flank...

When you made a mistake with a Pz IV, well, you waste a tank, but is not many points worth. But losing a KT is quite different. A lot of points go away with it....

So when you buy one of those, be as paranoid as when you are using any other axis tank. Really. Well, use it as it has been already said (long range hunts, nightmare, etc...) but be overly cautious.

One last thing: poor armour quality. The "s*** happens" factor of weak spots are quite rare, but... you get one when you really do not expect one, and just when everything depends of the last gamble of the big cat. Even a Stuart could get THE SHOT (a Stu killed one of my KT from 500 m. once, front shot!!!).

[Blenheim]

bumper

[MikeyD]

There just aren't that many scenarios with 2,000+m of open ground in front of you to let the King Tiger (or JadgPanther, or Nashorn, etc.) do his best work.

[Micheal Wittman]

Only have had a KingTiger once, 3rd. shot from the allied < american > armour'd unit

damaged the main gun......... Poop useless

after that

sung to the tune of "Marsha","Marsha","Marsha",

"Uber" "Uber", "Uber"

I'd say keep that badboy back with max. line

of sight,front forward with support units!

If your an allied use your speed, It can be

pain in the rump, like hornets buzzing around your head

[Redwolf]

Buying one or two Kingtigers makes no sense in a Quickbattle you are trying to win. In the following I assume you buy a force that brings you the best statistics of winning, without saying that battles must be done this way. If you want the battle and the KT for fun, no problem with that.

The chance that the KT gets knocked out is not zero. List of direct threats:

- 17 pdr gun (standalone, Firefly, Challenger, Achilles)

- Hollow charge from British 95mm gun (Churchill, Cromwell)

- Long version of American 90mm gun (Super Pershing)

List of less direct threats:

- American 90mm on Jackson and Pershing and standalone AA gun

- Comet (is that a reduced 17 pdr gun?)

More annoyances:

- plus the flank issue

- plus, you get the 1% chance of a weak point penetration, which

reduces the armour by 30%-50%.

- plus gun damage

- plus immobilization from artillery

- plus airplanes

So, buying the Kingtiger does not mean you can move it anywhere you wants, you cannot even place it as king-of-hill as you like.

If you spent a substancial part of your points on one or two KT, the chance that you loose it/them is hence not neglectable, in which case your battle would be in a very difficult position. You cannot take that risk if you are going to win as many games as possible, a simple matter of statistics.

Still, you need a bit of bad luck to loose one KT and a bit more bad luck to loose two.

If you can buy a whole platoon, the amount of bad luck you need to loose them all becomes so high that the overall risk for your game becomes acceptable.

Where exactly the threshold is for a given person will vary, and it will also depend on the opponent. If your opponent is assumed to be better than you, planning players will always have the favourite player choose the lesser risk (no KT if not 4 pieces or more) and the underdog taking the higher risk, maybe even buying one which has a 50:50 chance of upsetting the battlefield or straightout loosing. Playing safe against a superiour tactican is the best way to loose 10 battles barely, where the higher risk may get you 8 overwhelming losses and 2 marginal wins, which is preferrable for both players, fun-wise.

So, in summary:

- Always buy the best and biggest tank you can get

- But never less than a platoon, unless you have to take your chances

Regarding tactics. As I said, I don't think that having a Kingtiger means that it can do anything special. It has to follow the same cover issues that a normal Tiger. I don't see that I would get a unit of Kingtigers over a unit of normal Tigers, especially since flank protection of the Tiger I is even a little better due to better steel quality. Historically, the Kingtiger is not a bigger version of the normal Tiger, it was its successor. The tactical role was the same. They even cost about the same to build. For me, it looks like the extra points spent for the KT in CMBO don't buy you any tactical option that you wouldn't have with the Tiger I. Considering the single tank CMBO costs are right. Considering a platoon manoeuvring over the map, I don't see much difference between 4 KT or 4 Tigers.

More negative points:

- The KT is even slower that the Tiger I. So much slower that it even

narrows down the tactical choices.

- CMBO maps are not large enough to use the big gun of the KT to full

advantage.

- The more capable the weapon of a given unit and the more points you

invested in that weapon, the more important is it to have an

experienced crew. 4 88mmL/71 hit less often than 6 88mmL/56. At a

2:3 ratio of number of weapons I think the less numerous weapon

needs at least one experience grade more. That makes the KT unit

even less cost-effective.

However, the larger the battle gets, point-wise and map wise, the more attractive can the Kingtiger get. Besides all the issues stated before become lessend, there is one additional playing consideration: number of units. A CMBO player can handle only so many units with sufficient detail. If you spend 4000 points in cheap units, you will get into control problems, unless you have very strong subformation thinking, which still leaves a cklickfest. Personally, I would have to concentrate points in uniformly controlled units and then buying expensive tanks makes sense. Considering 12 KT to 28 Pz IV, I would say that I would quickly loose some of those extra Pz IV due to suboptimal path planning and getting them into enemy field of fire.

Martin

P.S. Who said anything about bad about the Cromwell? The Cromwell IV is The Hellcat for games under Fionn's rules of short 75.