COMBAT MISSIONS: Armour Tactics - King Tiger!

[Cybeq]

Most people are going to advocate using a stand-off tactic with the King Tiger. If the maps were bigger that would be the ideal way to use it but given that the map sizes in CM are smaller than ideal for the King Tiger I would not advocate parking it on a hill and using it in overwatch. In my mind it can best be exploited by using it as an assault tank working close with your infantry as you advance. It's speed is slow? All the better to move with the infantry. Move it up slightly behind your infantry. When they encounter a stubborn pocket of resistance use the King to blast it to kingdom come. It's turret is slow? That's only a problem if your reacting to the enemy. Keep it proactive and it won't matter. The shock factor (to the enemy) of seeing a King mixing it up at his MLR is worth the risk in my mind. One more tip: stay on the road if at all possible.

[JasonC]

"I will gratefully acknowlege any corrections"

I believe you. I have only one correction - the Cromwell is fast, faster than Shermans actually. The early models can to 40 mph. Other than that, it all sounded right.

And two additions - Allied "T" rounds can go through the turret front, like the 17 lber - but not through the front hull. One consequence of both of these is that "hull down" positions are not always so desireable with a KT. The hit chance is lower, but against the best Allied AT weapons, the hits are more likely to hurt when you are hull down.

Also, stay at range if possible, because the 88 will kill anything at range, and many of the Allied weapons can touch you. Even from the sides, the vanilla 75mm Shermans and such, will need to get reasonably close.

The main threat is 76mm TDs from the sides (even at range). The secondary threat is "T" rounds and 17-lbers from the front, close, hitting the turret.

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cybeq:

Most people are going to advocate using a stand-off tactic with the King Tiger. If the maps were bigger that would be the ideal way to use it but given that the map sizes in CM are smaller than ideal for the King Tiger I would not advocate parking it on a hill and using it in overwatch. In my mind it can best be exploited by using it as an assault tank working close with your infantry as you advance. It's speed is slow? All the better to move with the infantry. Move it up slightly behind your infantry. When they encounter a stubborn pocket of resistance use the King to blast it to kingdom come. It's turret is slow? That's only a problem if your reacting to the enemy. Keep it proactive and it won't matter. The shock factor (to the enemy) of seeing a King mixing it up at his MLR is worth the risk in my mind. One more tip: stay on the road if at all possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, a refreshing take on the Koenigstiger's usage, and one I can agree on too. I'll keep that in mind instead of acting prissy with mine.

While the KT can destroy any tank with ease (including the *snicker* M26 Pershings) and can cause chaos among Allied troops (esp. once those 'zooks/PIATS are suppressed), I hate to say it, but in small games <1000pts for example, it just eats waaaaay too many points. In larger scale "point" games, esp. with armor involved, the KT becomes more and more attractive. Put it in open battlefields where all tanks like to play and fight at longer ranges. The tungsten rounds the Allies rely on so much seems to me to become less effective, esp. against sloped armor.

As for Allied tanks in denser terrain doing "donut" tactics, whatever you do, DO NOT just sit there and try to traverse the turret. Use the Reverse command to move away, or do what I like to do: "Rhino" through his attack with a "hunt" command into friendly held areas or into terrain that negates such "circling" trickery(towns/cities/woods). The confining terrain will restrict his movement just like yours, and since speed is the Allies' game, they lose more in such terrain. Just keep on moving with the "hunt" command. If you properly supported your KT (like you should) with infantry or other cheaper AFVs (PzKpfw IVs are magnificent for this) things should go smoother.

[Manx]

Roight!...one final boot before i do the page.

[MikeyD]

I recently bought the book 'Battle of the Bulge - Through the Lens' (HIGHLY recommended). This book takes those familiar war photos and matches them up to detailed topo maps and even matches up present day photos of the same places! There are a lot of Tiger photos in this book you really start to get a CM-style sense of the battlefield with the maps and photos. It seems the usual "hit from behind at 40 meters while hiding between two farmhouses during a snowstorm" CM scenario is not too far off the mark.

[Dr. Brian]

What about using a KT in a scenario where the max visability is limited by Fog (say 80m) or night.

The long range ideas spoken above, don't apply anymore.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

I nominate Bates for the Custer Prize for Tactical Brilliance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I call upon all of you to bear witness that this thread conains the first reference to the Custer Prize.

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

What about using a KT in a scenario where the max visability is limited by Fog (say 80m) or night.

The long range ideas spoken above, don't apply anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite true. With the omnipotent 88, just blast any God-forsaken creature/unit unfortunate enough to meet the wrong end of the barrel. For short visibility like this, armor shouldn't be running around taking point. Infantry should find, fix the target. Bring the KT to send the enemy to their maker afterwards.

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

Quite true. With the omnipotent 88, just blast any God-forsaken creature/unit unfortunate enough to meet the wrong end of the barrel. For short visibility like this, armor shouldn't be running around taking point. Infantry should find, fix the target. Bring the KT to send the enemy to their maker afterwards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what about if the KT is on defense? You'll quickly find yourself surounded, i assume? Thoughts?

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Dr. Brian ]

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Use the Reverse command to move away, or do what I like to do: "Rhino" through his attack with a "hunt" command into friendly held areas or into terrain that negates such "circling" trickery(towns/cities/woods). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That "circling" trickery is called trying to play smart with what you have been given.

Players who generally use German forces often forget how to act clever with their tanks, they depend on their uber-factor and little else.

Gyrene

[CombinedArms]

Just to reinforce a few points made above:

The KT can kill Pershings from the front.

On the other hand, while they'll frequently resist Sherm 75 AP rounds from the sides, Sherm 76s, Hellcats and M10s can readily kill KTs with flank shots. And Allies often have many fast 76 firing AFVS. So it's risky to use this very expensive asset except with serious flank protection. I think KTs, as suggested, CAN work as an infantry support vehicle as long as they stay BEHIND the infantry and have flank protection. As suggested above, reverse out of difficulties to keep your front toward enemy AFVs. The wider the battlefield with clear LOS, the better the chance that someone will get a flank shot on you if you approach too near the front. Being the top priority of the enemy can be good as a fear-instilling factor, but it also increases your chance of getting killed, as the Allies will focus their whole tactical plan on eliminating you till you're out of the way. A good opponent will not be rattled by the presence of your KT but will take it as a challenge.

They're very risky to use as an urban assault vehicle, OTOH--they can be killed by a single zook round in the tail, or even maybe a rear shot by a 37mm gun, so you're risking a very valuable asset while sacrificing serious advantages if you get it in amongst buidings.

If I were using a KT to attack a city, I'd stand off with flank protection and level buildings with it, hoping to expose enemy armor and kill whatever I can then see.

Maybe my point is that the KT is one of the most powerful weapons in the game, but like anything else, it needs canny handling to survive and thrive on the CM battlefield.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Gen-x87]

Today for fun I setup a QB ME 3000 points and I picked the units.

I picked 8 panthers, 2 KTs, 4 Hetzers and 4 PZIVs.

The allies had 4 Jumbos, 8 M10s, 8 Shermans, and about 8 other armor units I cant remember.

I had to defend a village. I placed the PZIVs and Hetzers in town while I attempts to flank. After meeting up with about 3 tanks my first platoon(4 Panther Gs and a KT) smacked them down in 1 turn from a hill. I ended up losing 2 PZIVs engaging about 13 Allied Armor Units. One of my PZIVs was ina good position and took out a sherman and a Priest before going up in smoke. I then lost a hetzer and a hetzers gun. I then moved 1 platoon of Panthers and its KT to up the back side of the map and the other into and through the town.

After losing my last PZIV and having onle 1 hetzer left between the town and the allied column my first platoon went through town and setup shop just behind a hill. My backside platoon engaged some minor units whacking them. Then moved in from behind. I rolled both platoons out on the same turn and the allies were kind of stuck in a valley.

In the next 3 turns it was a tank battle from hell. I even brought my remaing hetzer in for a feast

Shells deflecting left and right, they managed to knock out a Panthers turret but that was it.

After 4 turns it was a burning mess for the allies. Then just to be mean I moved through and waxed the crews hehe.

Anywho my point is, keep the KT at a distance with good support. Today the KTs had 4 Panthers for support

Gen

P.S. It seemed like the KTs turret swings faster than the panther but the tank is 10 MPH slower.