dumbo Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Croda, I take your point. Dont get me wrong I understand the value of flag waving movies no matter what country makes them. There is nothing wrong with beleiving your country (whicher one it is) is the greatest ever and inventing a story to retell history in the form of a legend. My problem comes with the amount of people who beleive this IS history. Its saddening and probably an indictment of schools rather than the movie makers. The "media makes history" illness was demonstrated dramatically the other day when my GF came back from college and told me how in a class poll (remember this is at COLLEGE level) students in her American history class put slave ownership in the South before the civil war at around 70-80% of the white population. So these students actually beleived that the vast majority of white southerners were slaveholders (real numbers were below 10%). I pity history teachers having to correct this mess, gawd knows what students think of WW2. Oh well.. _dumbo p.s. before people get the wrong impression most English high school students beleive the British WON the battle of hastings in 1066 and the Normans lost, so this isnt an American disease. [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 quite true, and pathetic. But in case you're wondering, they don't think of anything after the Industrial Revolution because teachers never get that far along. High School kids have no concept on anything in the 20th century, unless they lived it, and we all know how difficult it is to put into perspective anything that you're seeing first hand. You got it right that it is an indictment of the schools. For those of you who are not living in the U.S., our school systems are a sham, thus why Americans are getting dumber and vote for people like Bush and Gore when decent candidates like John McCain go unwanted. Oh where oh where has Colin Powell gone. Geez...did I get off topic? why didn't one of stop me? I liked Memphis Belle, and I liked Iron Eagle the same as I liked Red Dawn...if I were to watch it now, then maybe it wouldn't have the same je ne sais quoi. As for no good Louis Gossett films, let me say Enemy Mine and go on my way. ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 amen to what Croda said about the school systems here in the U.S. sad but true ------------------ Did someone compare this to the Peng thread? I've apologized for less. -Anonymous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dirkd1976 Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 The way he was going McCain had my vote....ahhh, what to do with it now? ------------------ Never mistake motion for action - Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: ... almost voted for Flying Tigers until I realized that I couldn't say a word against the big guy! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Flying Tigers..worst war movie? Croda, have you lost your mind? I grew up with that movie. I remember as a kid putting together some bad models of the P-40 and Zero and single-handedly saving the world. I know you were just kidding, right? Watched the DVD of "They Were Expendable" last night. John Wayne in a PT boat. Wooden acting, shameless patriotism, self-sacrificing heroics..It was great! That part where Ward Bond serenaded Donna Reed and the Duke, it just doesn't get any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Panic Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Another film to add: Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo It wasn't that bad of a movie but they wasted too much time on that insipid romantic subplot. ------------------ Two Rules to Live By: 1. Never Get Out of the Boat. 2. Charlie Doesn't Surf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Kind of curious, what did people think of Courage Under Fire, the Denzel Washington/Meg Ryan film. I actually enjoyed it and thought it showed Desert Storm in a way that it hadn't been shown before...now I don't know enough to speak to whether or not it keeps to anything remotely factual or not. ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 I'll ignore US presidential elections and offer something I think no one has mentioned (maybe I should leave it that way, but what the heck...): GI Jane. Arrr, I guess it's not a real war movie, but if we're talking more generically about army movies, well, that's what I consider lowly. Then there was an Australian-Japanese joint production in which Aussie and Jap snipers have a duel in a jungle fortress in some Pacific island. Oooh how admirable those men are, when they use their last bullets to drop coco nuts on a minefield so a native girl won't walk into it, as they could alternatively have shot eachothers. Oooh how solidaric those Australian snipers are, as the guy prevented his enemy from killing himself. Oooh what a happy end, when the two men meet 50 years later. Otherwise it was somehow charming story, just like that old Chinese tale about the archer who could shoot without arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 16, 2000 Author Share Posted October 16, 2000 The only thing that REALLY ticks me off with war movies is when they don't get the equipment right. For instance.. In Memphis Belle they would show the German FW190s coming in and you would see there wings lighting up from the muzzle flashes from machine gun fire. I got freakin' i-rate! Every war buff knows that the FW190 does NOT have wing mounted MGs. The FW190A has 2x7.92mm MGs and 4x20mm cannons. 2 20mms on each side of the fuselage where the wings connect, the wing root, and the 2 MGs on the top of the engine inside the engine cowling. Sometimes the FWs had under the wings extra 20mms cannons fix to the hard points but this was only seen in a ground support role. For the time the Memphis Belle took place they were most likely fighting FW190Ds or(Dora Nines). Which only had 2x20mms, one in each wing root, and I think 2x13.7mm MGs in the cowling. For me that one little point TOTALLY ruined the movie for me. Jeff [This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 YA! And you know something else? When I was watching Stripes, and Bill Murray was being a clown in Basic Training, I said "There's no way!" and I just couldn't handle it any more after that. Send that setup, Shandorff, I'm gonna git ya. ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 bad war movie Starship Troopers <ahem> talk about maneouver warfare! the Mobile Infantry got around by walking. No tanks, no APC's, not even a dang hoverboard. when facing a horde of PO'ed bugs, what do they decide is the best thing to do? 1) call in an airstrike, waste those puppies 2) wade into them mano y cucharacha 3) use artillery and tanks that would be pretty invincible against big bugs with claws (the answer is 2. i mean *&^#$*&! the troopers in antz did a better freakin' job and they only had sticks!!!!!! at least they had a little aircover!) the "beautiful" girl (and that music that swelled each time she appeared) was really annoying. the only character i liked died... and the ending sucked since they 1) try to set up for the next sequel 2) bring together the 'friends' who were not really in on the important parts for most of the middle of the film. oh yeah, they're all fascists apparently i agree with red dawn being cool when you're young. good propaganda, i was really scared of the russians invading america after that! ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 16, 2000 Author Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: YA! And you know something else? When I was watching Stripes, and Bill Murray was being a clown in Basic Training, I said "There's no way!" and I just couldn't handle it any more after that. Send that setup, Shandorff, I'm gonna git ya. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah! And when that RV of thier's came with a side mounted flamethrower, I was pissed! Everyone knows that that model of RV didn't have the side flamethrower as an option. Armored, fake wood, paneling yes, but not flamethrowers! My fight through trafic home will be more difficult and time consuming then the defense you're gonna put up. Jeff [This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Shandorff, if we play in snow, then I can use my 'make them eat the yellow snow' defence...it's a nasty one. ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: Hey, All. Last week I started a thread on the best war movie and in reading that thread I occasionally saw some grumbling about this movie sucking or that movie biting a-s SO I thought I would start a thread where this pent up anger can be vented. Personally the movie that really made me sick was that recent submarine movie, what was it called, U-251?? God, I tried to erase the memory of THAT movie from my head. How completely inaccurate and wholly unrealistic. I won't go into details because anyone who has seen the movie should know what I am talking about. Ugh. Jeff [This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 10-16-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes I whole-heartedly agree Jeff. I think the worst bit for myself was when the frigging seamen was yelling at his mate on the gun to shoot the Jerry scout plane while his officer was telling them all to stand down. I remember thinking, even the Americans aren’t that ill disciplined. I mean it must be Kangaroo court time, a baggie arguing with a Rupert (Officer) in combat, someone has to be shot/hung. But no the little individualist redeems himself by dieing for the rest, bollocks more like. ------------------ From the jshandorf "Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?" Mr T's reply "Don't touch me FOO!" "Yes that's right Jerry, RUN, Run for your little lives because Tommy's gotten close enough to assault mhahahahah." Nizam al-Mulk, (Order of the realm) In speaking of his superb disregard of maneuver warfare, in the destruction of OGSF hamsters who then carried on to flee the battle in their own notion of maneuver warfare. Tally HO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualfreak Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 This may be off topic but because im attending high school right now I see first hand how neglected American schools are. None of my friends know how much I know about ww2 and to be honest the most they know about it is what they saw in Saving Privat Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: Kind of curious, what did people think of Courage Under Fire, the Denzel Washington/Meg Ryan film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> *VOMIT* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 16, 2000 Author Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables: Yes I whole-heartedly agree Jeff. I think the worst bit for myself was when the frigging seamen was yelling at his mate on the gun to shoot the Jerry scout plane while his officer was telling them all to stand down. I remember thinking, even the Americans aren’t that ill disciplined. I mean it must be Kangaroo court time, a baggie arguing with a Rupert (Officer) in combat, someone has to be shot/hung. But no the little individualist redeems himself by dieing for the rest, bollocks more like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Also... I looked up the Specs on U-571 and found out that it had only ONE aft torpedo tube NOT two like the movie portrayed. Such a simple thing but they totally didn't check it out. Also.. Tell me how an experienced U boat commander can look at a American S boat "disguised" as a german U-boat from 50 meters away WITH binoculars and NoT be able to sniff it out! It's beyond me... Lets not forget the German destroyer (Note: what the hell was a German destroyer doing off the south cost of England!?! Not to mention after 1940 Germany's surface Navy couldn't leave port for fear of being sunk instantly) blows up with one torpedo hit to the bow. Made me sick I tell you.. sick. Jeff [This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshik Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 One of the silliest, jaw-droppingest war films I ever saw was "The Losers" (also called "Nam's Angels"). Hell's Angels bikers mount guns on their choppers (bikes, not helicoptors!), and go on a mission to NAM to kick some VC butt... yow! You can see a snippet of this film in the movie Pulp Fiction. Look for the scene where Bruce Willis is in his hotel room. Shortly before discovering that his watch is missing, he's watching The Losers on TV. Other comments: Did you know some of these stupid movies almost got us into WWIII? Around 1982-1984, the Soviets were getting very, very nervous, and were convinced that the US was preparing to instigate a nuclear war. The Soviets launched an intelligence operation named RYAN ("Ree-ahn") that examined several aspects of life in the US. They wanted to search for anything that would be a sign of nuclear war preparedness. Remember, this was during the time that Reagan made his assinine radio comments about "beginning the bombing in five minutes". So they assumed that Hollywood was just a tool of the Government, and Hollywood was producing films that seemed to be acclimating the US population to the idea of going to war. Look at the films of this period: Rambo, Top Gun, and the unbelievable Red Dawn, complete with the evil Soviets parachuting into the middle of the United States! While most of us took these movies with a huge grain of salt, or wrote them off as puerile, jingoistic propaganda, the Soviets took them damn seriously. We were as close to nuclear war in 1983-1984 as we were during the Cuban Missile Crisis. No joke. Unrelated comment: concerning Saving Private Ryan ("Ryan")--- will all you bean-counting, left-brained, anal-retentive nitpickers lay off this beautiful movie? "Hey... that solider is wearing the A-107f belt buckle, when in reality, they only had the A-107c model during D-Day!" SPR accurately conveys the sheer terror of warfare, showing it as ugly and brutal, not glamorous. There are not too many films that do this, except for maybe "Cross of Iron". --Joshik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>p.s. before people get the wrong impression most English high school students beleive the British WON the battle of hastings in 1066 and the Normans lost, so this isnt an American disease. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, no, no. First of all the British weren't in existence at the Battle of Hastings - unless you count the French-based Britons who were routed. Everyone knows that the Normans won fair and square, and the Norman Conquest is not viewed in a negative light at all, more the beginning of the nation (the English national flag is actually the Norman flag, but minus some thin yellow markings). If you take American movies, on the whole they are of a very high quality, and are a commerical success the world over. Obviously there are some problems: 1) Titanic. Changed character nationalities and inserted some horrible actions by the ships crew which never actually happened. 2) U-571. Need I say more? 3) Saving Private Ryan to an extent. But people get this out of perspective. No one has a go at the French or British for making films which are only about their own countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: quite true, and pathetic. But in case you're wondering, they don't think of anything after the Industrial Revolution because teachers never get that far along. High School kids have no concept on anything in the 20th century, unless they lived it, and we all know how difficult it is to put into perspective anything that you're seeing first hand. You got it right that it is an indictment of the schools. For those of you who are not living in the U.S., our school systems are a sham, thus why Americans are getting dumber and vote for people like Bush and Gore when decent candidates like John McCain go unwanted. Oh where oh where has Colin Powell gone. Geez...did I get off topic? why didn't one of stop me? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think this is a purely US problem. I remember in being forced to give a seminar on Javanese epic poems i.e. Badad Tana Jawa, and started giving comparisons to Virgil’s Aneid, Homers Iliad in the hopes that it would strike a cord and highlight the similarities in purpose of 'Imperial' stories with what I thought would be known quantities to a Masters level Anthropology steeped in ‘western traditions, how wrong I was. Apparently Classical studies and History itself is grist for the mill of economics and accounting classes. And even in these the history of ‘economic’ ideas is considered irrelevant, i.e. Scottish enlightenment, its context and development. ------------------ From the jshandorf "Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?" Mr T's reply "Don't touch me FOO!" "Yes that's right Jerry, RUN, Run for your little lives because Tommy's gotten close enough to assault mhahahahah." Nizam al-Mulk, (Order of the realm) In speaking of his superb disregard of maneuver warfare, in the destruction of OGSF hamsters who then carried on to flee the battle in their own notion of maneuver warfare. Tally HO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 "No, no, no. First of all the British weren't in existence at the Battle of Hastings " Chuckle - actually that was kinda my point but I accept your correction. Saxons, Britons, Angles, Normans, Picts, Celts. Jeez no wonder we are confused _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 17, 2000 Author Share Posted October 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables: I don't think this is a purely US problem. I remember in being forced to give a seminar on Javanese epic poems i.e. Badad Tana Jawa, and started giving comparisons to Virgil’s Aneid, Homers Iliad in the hopes that it would strike a cord and highlight the similarities in purpose of 'Imperial' stories with what I thought would be known quantities to a Masters level Anthropology steeped in ‘western traditions, how wrong I was. Apparently Classical studies and History itself is grist for the mill of economics and accounting classes. And even in these the history of ‘economic’ ideas is considered irrelevant, i.e. Scottish enlightenment, its context and development. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wow, I would think almost any liberal arts student worth his salt would atleast have passing knowledge of Homer's "Iliad". I am a Comp. Sci and Math guy and I have read a ton of Classical Greek Mythos and Poems. Sigh.. We are doomed. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted October 17, 2000 Share Posted October 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chuckle - actually that was kinda my point but I accept your correction. Saxons, Britons, Angles, Normans, Picts, Celts. Jeez no wonder we are confused<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hehe. It's funny, the Britons get swamped and retreat to France, then they sail back to England with the Normans, they get routed by the Saxons, who in their pursuit end up losing the battle. So in a way the Britons has the last laugh! BTW, if England had been named after the Saxons instead of the Angles who took all the credit, England would be called Sexland (Middlesex, Essex, Wessex etc etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 17, 2000 Share Posted October 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: I'm surprised that people show such hatred for The Green Berets. While it is decidedly slanted, it serves its purpose. The idea was to show that perhaps there is a viable reason for the U.S. to be in Vietnam. Have we become so jaded and cynical that we lose that entirely? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have no problem with movies which are made for a political purpose. Lawrence Olivier's Henry V was made during WW2, and was, more or less, propaganda, but it's a brilliant movie. No, I reserve my dislike for movies which suck ass. As did the Green Berets. I love John Wayne. I think he's a much underrated actor, and many of his movies are true classics of American cinema. But put a movie like The Green Berets up against The Searchers, or The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, or Red River, or, or.... (the mind boggles with examples). If Satan came to me and said in a voice sulfurous and evil "FOOLISH MORTAL!!! CHOOSE BETWEEN THE GREEN BERETS AND STAGECOACH, YOU WORTHLESS HUMAN SLUG!!!!" I'd tell him to drag The Green Berets down to the flaming pits of hell and leave me with a good John Wayne movie. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 17, 2000 Share Posted October 17, 2000 Worst War Movies Ever: The Battle of the Bulge The Blue Max The Dawn Patrol To Hell and Back Thin Red Line Imperial Navy (Japanese flick) Port Arthur (Japanese flick) The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (hey, there was a battle scene in it with that bridge) Heartbreak Ridge I could think of more but I gotta go eat chow ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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