dumbo

"As far as the rest of your post goes, I spent 6 years of my career in newsrooms working my ass off to tell the story as accurately as possible, and I'm neither ugly, dumb nor weak. I have, however, conceived an extremely negative opinion of you." Always entertaining to see the media complaining about being smeared or having the facts distorted I accept your negative opinion with pride sir. Good day to you, _dumbo

You know what pisses me off? This whole notion of blaming the good guys for the crimes of others. Blame cops for a riot, blame the captian for not stopping some nutjob terrorists, blame the "community" for some kids going nuts. How about we blame the people who commit these acts rather than dragging through the mud the fine folks who actually go into the professions of policing, military and teaching? Eeesh it makes me mad. Still thats journalists for you, too stupid to study science, too weak to be physical and too ugly to do anything else. ahhh nothing feels better than bashing the clueless press 8)

Blackhorse: "Actually, they are." Aye you are almost certainly correct, but you have to admit having someone reading a games mag on the military dollar does come over as a little odd 8) That said, I am with you regarding wargames, I am sure it helps military personell. No offense intended. _dumbo

My tax dollars hard at work.

"would be shot as wrecker and saboteur. " Hmm someone knows their soviet history Its amazing how many times that phrase turns up during the show trials of the great terror.

Thanks Jeff & Terence. Good stuff. No time to respond --> at work cheers _dumbo

Terence: I think thats a reasonble point of view ,I certainly agree about the terrible human suffering I just find it hard to describe germanies downfall as a three legged stool when to my mind one leg is just so much bigger than the other two (Ok this stoll thing could get weird soon). _dumbo

Jeff: I think thats a completely valid point. Although I can dig up some pretty hairaising figures on just how many aircraft were deployed on the eastern front for you if you like ,I am at work right now but its a LOT However I would still put more emphasis on the bleeding side of combat in WW2. Its hard for me to imagine Germany losing WW2 if it had not invaded the USSR, I can imagine germany losing even if the USA or UK hadnt been involved. However thats certainly open to debate. My original point was that an western allied only perspective simply will not do when describing germanies downfall as the western front was the front of secondary importance and treated as such by Germany.

Not trying to be irritating or anything but the comment "The British couldnt have won without the Americans" or the reverse is sort of off base. After all I dont think anyone would contest that the USSR did the vast majority of the fighting against Nazi Germany. Not implying the Commonwealth or US forces were not nessecary for victory but I think its worth pointing out the large elephant in the room with "USSR" tattooed on its trunk Certainly the USA and Commonwealth played second fiddle to the USSR in terms of fighting IMHO. cheers _dumbo [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 12-06-2000).]

Andreas: I was not aware of that Thanks for the info.

"Oh yeah, the Welsh and the Irish too." Errrm Irish? Only from Ulster and some volunteers from the south I beleive. The Republic of Ireland was neutral in WW2 like Switzerland.

Hmmm I hate to rise to Ambroses defense but.. First of all there are two Ambroses, one the long haired rebel who appears in "The World at War" and the current one who is essentially the official patriot-laureate of the united states. The old Ambroses opinions were fairly wide ranging and in particular (in my judgement) had a fairly canny eye for the macro global view of the war. The new Ambrose is part of the "greatest generation" industry. Sadly this can appear to be making a fast buck off WW2 vets to some of us. But one also has to suspect that Ambrose has come to love the vets he has interviewed so often and perhaps thats no bad thing. He has never had a good grasp of technical details (and I suspect he might claim this wasnt his job) but always digs up excellent human accounts. One thing should be clarified though, and its best to come from a Brit. There is no way Ambrose is anti british , I submit his "Pegasus Bridge" as exhibit A for the defense, read it and come away singing "Rule Brittania" Sure he has voiced a few of the complaints Americans had about Monty but its always worth remembering that Montys harshest critics in WW2 were British not American as he made very few freinds in the RAF or RN. Just my 0.02c _dumbo Uh oh I mentioned Monty, duck and cover

Wow, Really interesting threads. Good stuff. Germanboy: I hear you about demanding teachers, I once had a pol sci teacher who asked me to explain why "democracy was good". I floundered utterly under his barrage of questions ;one of which interestingly was for me to explain how you could get the votes counted fairly Smart geezer that teacher. Anyways thanks for all the responses, certainly very interesting reading. Its weird how such feelings are self replicating and can get passed down. I have seen card carrying internationalists turn into rabid nationalists if their ancestry is insulted. Makes you wonder if ethnic conflicts can be solved by any humane means at all. Anyways thanks again all, take it easy. _dumbo [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 11-30-2000).]

Good point Steve, US education is (in my limited experience of a few night classes) no worse then British history education in terms of its limitations. While visiting mainland Europe I encountered similar distorted views although I have no experience of their education system. My suspcion is that all countries play up their own role more than is warranted. However even without a biased history I think nationalism has its hook in me. I KNOW for example about several unpleasant massacres commited by British troops in India and China, and yet I cant see them as "the bad guys", heck my reaction is still to question whether or not the foriegners were "exagerating". I am not even sure why I would feel that way. I can only assume (please correct me if I am wrong) that this tendency is common amongst folks of other nations. I have no problem with other peoples history (I find Russian history facinating reading) but for some reason when it comes to "us" it gets me in the gut every time. I find some British history almost painful to read by comparision. With WW2 I think the problem is amplified becuase it has been (mistakenly in my view) been turned into the benchmark "moral war". Good vs Evil. Anyways its late, but you get my drift. Even though I know such feelings are stupid (why should I care if Rome defeated Caracatus or not?) but I do care and it confuses the crap outta me gnite _dumbo

willmontgomery: I know where you are coming from, its interesting; one of the reasons I stopped coming to the forum was I found it reactivated my nationalism genes which I had thought were long dead. I am a Brit living in America but for some reason I still get offended when I hear the "wrong" version of history spoken over here IE: I get mad if anyone puts down or implies the Brits lost anything, ever I have seen my American freinds have the same reaction if I dare voice the opinion that the Soviet Union primarily defeated Nazi Germany. So I dont think this is something I am alone in. God knows how it must feel to be a German I guess I am curious why this should still be. Most folks who buy CM are fairly smart folks with a good historical education and yet still I see people get needled if their country is portrayed in a negative light EVEN if it happened centuries ago. For all our modernity and so called globalization and meeting of other cultures via the internet the same old tribal nationalism still holds a powerful sway. I dont really have a point other than I just wanted to let you know someone else out there is wrestling with this problem. cheers, _dumbo

Just as a foreigner living in the USA I have to say I am starting to get all defensive about Bush & Gore, actually really pissed off hearing foriegn media reporters making blanket statements. I want to smack em down and say "Bugger off back to your own country and mind your own business then." I mean Americans are pretty open people but jeez its THEIR country, contrary to popular beleif this ISNT an election for "leader of the free world" (there is no such office) its an American election to be decided by Americans. I for one am impressed by how they are handling it. _dumbo

"But yes, pubs are a wonderful place to learn how far a tenner will go..." Your round, mines a bitter... _dumbo

"I would be interested in knowing how in depth european schools look at the US involvement in the pacific campaign. Do they know the difference between Tarawa, Pelieleu, or Iwo Jima and the massive sacrifices made on each of those islands? " Speaking for England when I was growing up the answer is pretty much, no. The pacific war apart from Singapore and Burma didnt get much press but then again neither did the Russian Front. This doesnt concern me too much as history teachers tend to avoid the military part of WW2 presumably becuase students actually find it interesting and that wouldnt do at all. From my own expereince in England, now living in the US and having discussed it with several Russian freinds the answer is always the same regarding each nations "popular" version of WW2. "We won it pretty much on our own with a little help from others." There are probably worse sins in the world than to go around beleiving this. _dumbo

The attraction is fairly simple. 1.) The desisive front in WW2. It was in the East that the result of WW2 was determined. 2.) Both sides could have won or lost. 3.) Scale. Its simply huge. Barbarossa is the largest invasion in history. Hope this helps. _dumbo [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 10-24-2000).]

"you turn harmless threads into this ****." (holds hand up) My fault I think Manta. I beleive my post started the whole ball rolling down the nationalist path. Eeesh I never learn. Sorry everyone. _dumbo

Burnout. One of the reasons I have become more and more of a board lurker rather than a poster here is burnout. My opinion runs like this. Combat Mission is complete, done, finished. Its a great game I love playing it. Many of the posts here tend to end up talking up what perceived flaws there are in the product. These snowball and snowball until the game is pereceived as "broken" by some players. This burns me out as I dont have anything left to discuss about the game. I am a completely satisfied customer. However I have been in communties for games which I did "keep at it" constantly asking for minor tweaks until my requests were ignored or refuted and I got angry at the makers. I dont intend to make that mistake again In actual fact I usually come here now to check out the OT threads just becuase this is a remarkably well informed community about military matters and just generally nice folks. I intend to lurk more and more often until CM2 comes along the horizon. I am not sure this is useful to anyone but you might want to consider if you are getting irritated coming here or getting angry at the game you used to enjoy maybe its time to take a break or wait for CM2? Just a thought. Cheers _dumbo

"No, no, no. First of all the British weren't in existence at the Battle of Hastings " Chuckle - actually that was kinda my point but I accept your correction. Saxons, Britons, Angles, Normans, Picts, Celts. Jeez no wonder we are confused _dumbo

Croda, I take your point. Dont get me wrong I understand the value of flag waving movies no matter what country makes them. There is nothing wrong with beleiving your country (whicher one it is) is the greatest ever and inventing a story to retell history in the form of a legend. My problem comes with the amount of people who beleive this IS history. Its saddening and probably an indictment of schools rather than the movie makers. The "media makes history" illness was demonstrated dramatically the other day when my GF came back from college and told me how in a class poll (remember this is at COLLEGE level) students in her American history class put slave ownership in the South before the civil war at around 70-80% of the white population. So these students actually beleived that the vast majority of white southerners were slaveholders (real numbers were below 10%). I pity history teachers having to correct this mess, gawd knows what students think of WW2. Oh well.. _dumbo p.s. before people get the wrong impression most English high school students beleive the British WON the battle of hastings in 1066 and the Normans lost, so this isnt an American disease. [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 10-16-2000).]

I honestly now hate all war movies. After the aweful "Patriot", "U571" and SPR I looked back at some of the British movies such as "Dambusters" and "633 Squadron". They are just as bad on the mindless jingoism front. I remember seeing an italian war movie in the desert (someone help me out here with title) which depicted brave Italians fighting evil Allies. Its not just Americans who make absurdly slanted movies. Think about it though, who makes movies? Nobody ever accused filmakers of being intelligent or having integrity, we shouldnt expect any better. _dumbo

I think its rather classy as war memorials should be. I hope it DOESNT have lots of statues of soliders or too much text which to my mind generally cheapens the memory of the dead. I suppose this maybe a matter of cultural taste. I still remember passing the memorial in the village where I grew up as a lad (in england) and reading the names of the dead from the great war, at least one from each village family including my own. Seeing that every day on the way to school sure did have an impact reminding me of the sacrifices of our ancestors. cheers _dumbo