Spotting system

[AndreaVochieri]

Hello,

do Scouts/Recon teams spot target or hide better than other teams? 

Do recon battalions spot and hide overall better than other kind of battalions?

Is the hiding or spotting capability only dependent on experience?

 

Thanks

[Anthony P.]

Dedicated scout units spot and hide better than normal troops (supposing that their skill levels are identical), yes.

[waffelmann]

I don't think so. I think they are just like regular troops.  They can see better if they have binoculars...

[Erwin]

47 minutes ago, Anthony P. said:

Dedicated scout units spot and hide better than normal troops (supposing that their skill levels are identical), yes.

If you can substantiate that, it would be good to know.  My experience is that in the CM game, scouts, along with other specialized troops like snipers and engineers function the same as inf. At least I have found it impossible to see any discernible difference.  I always recommend that specialized troops are of higher experience level so that they are a noticeably superior in their jobs.  Crack scouts are very good at scouting.  (See them function in Paper Tiger's "Gung Ho!" campaign.)

[AndreaVochieri]

To be honest this reflects also my experience. Maybe a developer can share his insights? @BFCElvis

[Vacillator]

10 minutes ago, waffelmann said:

I don't think so. I think they are just like regular troops.  They can see better if they have binoculars...

That's what I was going to say but wasn't so sure so didn't.  But yes binoculars should help and I think they do.

[Vacillator]

1 minute ago, AndreaVochieri said:

@BFCElvis

Your tag isn't quite right, you have to select it from the drop down when it appears as you type @ B F C E etc.  And you'll get this @BFCElvis.  But I think John is not the one to discuss your question...

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, AndreaVochieri said:

do Scouts/Recon teams spot target or hide better than other teams? 

Not as a specific "enhancement". However smaller teams are harder to spot so a couple of scouts will be harder for the enemy to spot.

2 hours ago, AndreaVochieri said:

Do recon battalions spot and hide overall better than other kind of battalions?

Again not as some kind of skill enhancement. However in some TO&Es those formation s will have more experience and better equipment. If so those things will make a difference.

2 hours ago, AndreaVochieri said:

Is the hiding or spotting capability only dependent on experience?

That is a factor. So is equipment (scopes, IR, etc).

[Myles Keogh]

Experience and fatigue can improve or degrade spotting.

Conscript/green troops don't spot as well as elite/crack ones.

Exhausted/tired troops don't spot as well as rested/ready ones.  (One of the bigger reasons of why NOT to run your pixeltruppen ragged without reason.)

And, as already stated, units equipped with binoculars have improved spotting. 

I don't believe there is any spotting "bonus" for units labeled as being scouts or recon.  They spot only as well as their fatigue/experience levels allow them and whether or not they're equipped with binoculars which they usually are.

[Brille]

1 hour ago, Myles Keogh said:

Exhausted/tired troops don't spot as well as rested/ready ones.  (One of the bigger reasons of why NOT to run your pixeltruppen ragged without reason.)

First time I´ve heard that fatigue stands in correlation to the spotting mechanic. As far as my experience goes fatigue has no or at least no meaningful impact on spotting and accuracy.

The level of fatigue just represents of what a unit can still do in movement terms. Tired troops cannot move fast anymore and fatigued ones can only use "move" or "slow" for example.

 

@topic:

Scout units cannot see or hide better than other troops.

In game terms they are often used as just a cheaper (and less powerful) version of the standard units.

Their real purpose is not well presented in combat mission because it is out of scale in those games.

However if they are embedded in a proper formation they often come with their own, sometimes unique, equipment. In some armies they have specialized low profile vehicles or additional equipment that other formations don´t have or at least not in this extant.

For example in CMBS russian recce troops come with their BRM vehicles that make use of ground radar technology. This helps with spotting and aiming.

In Cold War every squad of soviet recce infantry comes equipped with a radio. In standard infantry formations only the squad leader has a set of it.

This way you can use those more spread out and form a wider observation line.

 

Often these troops also come with lesser man power per squad. This can make them sometimes more stealthier than standard infantry. But if you often split your squads into fireteams you have the same if not better effect.

Never the less the rule also applies here: The more eyes you have, the better the spotting will be (especially if optics come into play).

[Erwin]

9 minutes ago, Brille said:

First time I´ve heard that fatigue stands in correlation to the spotting mechanic. As far as my experience goes fatigue has no or at least no meaningful impact on spotting and accuracy.

This is my understanding as well.  If someone has substantive proof that these specialized troops function better at spotting than reg inf, please let us know.  My regular advice is for designers to give the specialized troops like snipers, scouts and engineers a level higher experience than the inf.  As mentioned earlier, it was a lot of fun using the crack scouts, snipers and engineers in Paper Tiger's "Gung Ho!" campaign.  That high experience made a noticeable difference.  It was a real pleasure to use these crack units as one normally notices no difference from reg inf in most scenarios/campaigns.

[callada]

Should scouts or recon units have a bonus, specialized gear notwithstanding?  Like, historically, were people selected for that duty based on an unusually excellent ability to "see stuff"?  Or did they receive training that would somehow work out to improving their spotting chances significantly?

[Erwin]

Am sure someone has better info.  But, have always assumed that scouts, snipers and engineers had more training.

[A Canadian Cat]

20 hours ago, callada said:

Should scouts or recon units have a bonus, specialized gear notwithstanding?  Like, historically, were people selected for that duty based on an unusually excellent ability to "see stuff"?  Or did they receive training that would somehow work out to improving their spotting chances significantly?

No, the experience setting and available equipment already do this.

What we should likely do is up the experience of dedicated scout teams when designing scenarios. As long as the training advantage is appropriate for a given force.

Modern NATO armies do select some of their best soldiers to receive recon training, for example. So, if the training infrastructure is in place it would likely be appropriate for a dedicated scout formation have a higher level of training than the line infantry.

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said:

we should likely do is up the experience of dedicated scout teams when designing scenarios

Yes, that's what I was recommending for all specialized units.

[Thewood1]

Players and designers also need to make the distinction between recon, scouting, and just looking ahead.  Recon is an entire battle itself in finding info for your larger org or preventing your enemy from doing the same.  Specialized units, equipment, training, and vehicles are needed and used.  Scouting is taking a small subset unit made up of experienced soldiers and telling them to bring back as much enemy intel for disposition and lay of the local land.  Mostly done as a form of patrolling.  Its part of the local battle plan.  Just looking ahead is putting 1-3 guys few hundred meters ahead and see if they see whats around the corner or if someone shoots at them.  I would bet some of the more disposable members of the larger unit end up with this task.

Players and designers conflate all three of these types of information gathering exercises regularly.

[Erwin]

45 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

Players and designers conflate all three of these types of information gathering exercises regularly.

Not really players' fault - more due to the limitations of map sizes and scenario designs.  Nonetheless, there are dedicated scout, sniper and engineer units in the game so they should be better at doing that function.  However, in the CM2 game, it is hard/impossible to detect any difference from reg inf units.  The easiest solution is for designers to give specialized units a higher experience level than the average inf unit.

[Thewood1]

It is very easy to make that distinction between all of those functions.  But as you say, its the designer that has to do it.  And map size isn't really an issue.  Again the scenario designer has to adjust what they put into the OOB and the mission parameters.  A quick way to validate that...how many people have played a scenario where just spotting a unit gave you points.  That objective parameter is screaming recon/counter-recon battle.  I'm not sure I've ever seen that objective used.

 

One of the things I did way back when I played a lot more CM was to inventory my troops for experience and fitness.  I kept a good leader with few of them and used them as scouts.

[Halmbarte]

44 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

It is very easy to make that distinction between all of those functions.  But as you say, its the designer that has to do it.  And map size isn't really an issue.  Again the scenario designer has to adjust what they put into the OOB and the mission parameters.  A quick way to validate that...how many people have played a scenario where just spotting a unit gave you points.  That objective parameter is screaming recon/counter-recon battle.  I'm not sure I've ever seen that objective used.

 

One of the things I did way back when I played a lot more CM was to inventory my troops for experience and fitness.  I kept a good leader with few of them and used them as scouts.

Conversely green troops with poor leadership are great for 'exploding mine detector' recon. 

If you're a heartless bastard. 

Like me. 

H

[OBJ]

I found discussion above fully informative and answered my question from the manual. So, thanks all.

Below from engine 4.0 manual, Brille's explanation removed my confusion on the bolded section. With regard to scout vs infantry spotting ability, "However if they [sic scouts] are embedded in a proper formation they often come with their own, sometimes unique, equipment. In some armies they have specialized low profile vehicles or additional equipment that other formations don´t have or at least not in this extant."

From the manual, Spotting, Page 42:
"One of the center pieces of the new CMx2 game engine is the concept of “relative spotting”, where a number of game elements - from command & control, to skill levels, to individual unit abilities - all come together. A typical battlefield is full of chaos by its very nature: combatants worldwide call this chaos the “Fog of War”, where no two soldiers “see” the same thing. To simulate this, CMx2 employs complex calculations and a unique spotting concept which only shows the player what his currently selected unit can see.
Spotting is computed for each unit individually, and is not only based on actual lines of sight, but includes many other factors such as: what the spotter and target are doing (facing does matter!), the equipment they have available (scopes, binocu- lars etc.), skill levels, visibility based on climatic effects and the time of day, even sounds (units can “hear” nearby enemies!) and so forth."

[Thewood1]

Just an example of another game's attempt at recon missions.  Where recon is the major portion of the battle.  Not just scoring a body count.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/3187-recon-at-vollsjo/

 

Edited January 31 by Thewood1

[Fredrock]

On 1/28/2024 at 8:08 PM, Thewood1 said:

 A quick way to validate that...how many people have played a scenario where just spotting a unit gave you points.  That objective parameter is screaming recon/counter-recon battle.  I'm not sure I've ever seen that objective used.

In the CMBN Campaign 'Sie Kommen II - Allies' there is a battle called 'Night Recon' which has 6 Terrain Touch Objectives, but also (where you get more points) 7 Unit Objectives that are all based upon spot... The whole Scenario is predicated on moving around the map to specific 'touch' points and 'spotting' enemy units, firefights are to be avoided because loss of the recon units take a big points hit... The AI plans are designed to have Axis units moving in what you would call 'Guard' motion, back and forth, up and down a street, and all the armor is set to hide mode throughout the scenario, but are located in difficult map locations to get to (you have to dodge the troops on guard duty). I forget who the play testers where, this is from 2011 in CMBN, but IIRC they enjoyed the concept and thought it worked out well... 

Just for added thought I am making a new CMFB campaign and there will be a scenario along the 'Spotted Objective' lines. I created a few standalones like this but they have long gone by the wayside in the great flood of 2019...