Flamethrower Teams

[kb6583]

What good are they? They are two strong - it just takes even a wounded soldier still able to hold a rifle to take out the carrier. Been playing this game for a while now but I've not been able to find and posts that explain how to employ them effectively.

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, kb6583 said:

how to employ them effectively

Well in a recent @kohlenklau France 1940 scenario I approached a Char B1 from behind (as you do) and poured two consecutive streams of flame onto it's engine covers.  The next turn the Char stopped and got a demo charge in the same place from an engineer.  Crew jumped out, they'd had enough.  And of course went berserk with their pistols .

Whether the flamethrower did anything useful I wasn't convinced, but it sure looked like it.

[kohlenklau]

I think flamethrower teams need good support teams to suppress the enemy. For example, the other Saturday my wife grabbed our flamethrower from the garage and said we should attack the neighbors. I suggested that I cause a distraction by blowing up their car in the driveway and emptying a few AR-15 magazines into their back fence. Rebecca was then able to low crawl forward undetected and start a really great fire in their livingroom.

Later after the firetrucks had left, we all enjoyed a few cold beers and had a good laugh. They do have a few demo charges so I know they might get us back THIS weekend.

[Vacillator]

35 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

They do have a few demo charges so I know they might get us back THIS weekend.

Everybody needs good neighbours. 

Sorry but that's the result of years of subjection to Australian soaps .

Anyway you paint a great picture as always Phil.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

On defense, FT teams are all about good cover, a covered arc at optimum FT range, and staying hidden until it's time.

On attack, you either have to have massive suppression or be able to move through or along buildings without taking fire and then torch buildings or bunkers rather than trying to get into LOS to barbeque troops.

[PEB14]

I've not used any flamthrower team yet except in CMRT introduction campaign, where I was unable to use them properly.

But I recently played CMFI's Flames in the Mist which features flamethrowing Wasp AFV. They're pure killers. You can rout out any infantry from any kind of defensive position. Just need to pin the enemy down long enough to have the Wasp approach at firing range — then it's game over. I even felt pain for the defenders…

I would (try to) use the flamthrowing teams the same way.

[domfluff]

Flamethrowers are engineering tools. They excel when you need to clear infantry out of a dug-in position quickly and efficiently.

That implies that their main targets are trenches, bunkers and buildings, and they are a support asset, not a leading one.

All of the man-portable flamethrowers operate within 30m or so - which is grenade range. This means that any use of a flamethrower should be when the fight has been won, and you have control over the surrounding area, but you have (or suspect you have) some dug-in infantry that need to not be there.

This mean that you'll have established total fire superiority, have isolated and fixed the target, and what you're avoiding is the final kick-the-door-in approach, which is risky, slow and frequently costly.

 

The vehicle mounted weapons give you some more flexibility. The principle is generally the same, but the employment can be different, because armour and mobility can reduce the risk. There's a panzergrenadier training video which shows them in use - this was in the context of a counter-penetration attack, with soviets occupying the german's previous position. In this context, the flame halftracks are useful after the battle is "won", to clear out the trenches of any stragglers with speed, and a fair degree of certainty.

The Churchill Crocodile is somewhat in a league of it's own. The armour on a Churchill is so thick, that it's pretty much the only flame vehicle that can reasonably lead an assault. You still need to be mindful of the surroundings and have won the battle with the manoeuvre elements, because this is a secondary, engineering task, but you can roll up frontally to a bunker and burn it down from 100m or so away.

[Lethaface]

On the defense in complex terrain they can be very effective as well, as long as you can keep them hidden / unsuppressed until enemy infantry comes very close. Woosh them and bugger off for the next victim. 

[Bulletpoint]

Due to quirks of the game engine, they are not really good for much, in my humble opinion.

Quirk 1: You can't target indirectly like you can with grenades, so you need to walk directly into the LOS of the target at extreme short range. LOF is often strangely limited around buildings, which means you can't draw a target line even though it looks like you should be able to. A tiny bump in terrain, a low hedge, or the centre of the target building being slightly offset can completely block LOF for area fire.

Quirk 2: Fully suppressed targets will often suddenly "wake up" from suppression if you move closer than a magic range of about 100m. And since you need to move to about 30m, you can't rely on suppression to keep your guys alive.

Quirk 3: Inside big buildings that consist of several modular buildings put together and the interior walls removed, you can't fire through one building to hit the next one, even if it's in range. You need to move your FT team into the building that borders the target unit's building. Making them immediately spot you. Also, the abstracted interiors means you can't move through a building and flame out room after room before entering. You're all in the moment you enter the door.

Quirk 4: The positions you need flamethrowers to take out in reality are not that much of a problem in the game. Bunkers and fortified buildings that cause infantry units so much trouble in real life can be quite easily taken out by regular small arms fire - if you are able to get close and suppress them that is. Which you will of course also need to do in order to use a flamethrower. So using the in-game flame units feels a bit like using a rock to open a can of tuna. It's possible to do, but it's also really messy.

The only time I have been able to use an infantry FT team on offense was in a scenario where it's really dark and foggy. In that case, you can often walk straight up to suspected enemy positions and flame them. Apart from that, they can be used for defence.

[ThathumanHayden]

Wait, how do you target indirectly with grenades?

 

[Bulletpoint]

12 hours ago, ThathumanHayden said:

Wait, how do you target indirectly with grenades?

 

If your infantry team is behind a small bump in the tetrrain, close to a tall wall or hedge, you are able to place an area target order on the other side of the obstacle even though you don't have line of sight. The LOS tool will show a grey line. Then your guys will start throwing grenades, but they throw at a very slow pace and inaccurately so it's not super effective. But it can come handy in some difficult urban combat situations.

I'd really like for the flamethrower teams to get the same generous targeting rules.

[PEB14]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If your infantry team is behind a small bump in the tetrrain, close to a tall wall or hedge, you are able to place an area target order on the other side of the obstacle even though you don't have line of sight. The LOS tool will show a grey line. Then your guys will start throwing grenades, but they throw at a very slow pace and inaccurately so it's not super effective. But it can come handy in some difficult urban combat situations.

I'd really like for the flamethrower teams to get the same generous targeting rules.

Hmmm... I saw an Usually Hapless' video in which he used a Wasp flamethring tankette to indirect fire over a ridge… Not possible with a flamethrowing team?

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

Hmmm... I saw an Usually Hapless' video in which he used a Wasp flamethring tankette to indirect fire over a ridge… Not possible with a flamethrowing team?

In some cases, you can area target a spot in front of the ridge, and then hope that the inaccurate flamethrower will randomly shoot a burst that goes too far and lands beyond the ridge. With vehicle flamethrowers, you have enough ammo to try that clumsy workaround, but with backpack flamethrowers, it usually just means wasting your few shots firing at the ground.

[Brille]

21 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If your infantry team is behind a small bump in the tetrrain, close to a tall wall or hedge, you are able to place an area target order on the other side of the obstacle even though you don't have line of sight. The LOS tool will show a grey line. Then your guys will start throwing grenades, but they throw at a very slow pace and inaccurately so it's not super effective. But it can come handy in some difficult urban combat situations.

I'd really like for the flamethrower teams to get the same generous targeting rules.

I played the scenario Riva Ridge in fortress Italy and this manual grenade lobbing over said ridge was very helpful in some cases, especially because the ammo was quite low. 

 

And even if it didn't kill anybody, it suppressed opponent squads long enough for my soldiers to get into position safely and in turn shoot at them. 

 

For flamethrower teams in general:

I find them highly dependant on the situation. You need areas with short sight lines or low visibility to use them for maximum effect. So heavy forested/built up areas or low light/special weather conditions are where they shine, especially at defence. 

Try to set them up so they only can be seen by a small part of the enemy because once they fire up they stick out like a candle in the dark and turn into a high priority target. 

 

If they hit the enemy squad or team it is nearly done for even if they didn't kill it. Suppression is nearly instant and you most likely will root them out very quick. 

So the big problem is to get them into position but once they are and you get the jump on some soldiers they can be quite effective at that.

[Bulletpoint]

They can work once in a blue moon.

The main problem with them is that they don't play well with the limitations of the game engine and that they are a solution for a problem that exists in reality but not really in the game. If you can get a regular team of infantry with Garands and hand grenades closer than 30m to an enemy team without being spotted, they will usually also make short work of the defenders.

In reality, troops can get much closer to each other because they use cover better and because they don't have to move in squares of 8x8 metres. Even in modern day Ukraine, dug-in defenders can be a huge headache - as we see in the videos from the "Cyclops" position for example.

The attackers could get extremely close to the Russian bunker, but hand grenades didn't work, and drone dropped grenades and RPGs were also ineffective. A portable flamethrower would have destroyed the Russians in that situation. Or made them surrender after a demonstration blast as often happened in WW2.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Bulletpoint

[slysniper]

There is good comments here about flamethrowers as to how they work in the game.

As pointed out, generally, if you have them on defence and can set them up where the line of sight is also limited. Like dence woods. They can spring a nasty suprise on the enemy.

On offence as pointed out, very hard to get them in the correct  location without being killed.

What might be important to note is. If you can get them to fire on enemy infantry, its almost a gareentee to kill them or at least break them and make them panic and run.

So I have found with breaking the enemy. You do not need to hit them to get the break and panic. just need a near miss to get that result.

So you can area fire and get that result if its next to the enemy.

So on offence, you might be able to not move into line of sight, but move into a spot where they cannot see you and you cannot see them. But you can still area fire into the action square next to them. which will do the job sometimes without being shot down. Also because of their great inaccuraccy, they might actually hit the target and then get you a gareenteed great result.

Edited February 18 by slysniper

[Bulletpoint]

On 6/12/2023 at 2:15 PM, slysniper said:

What might be important to note is. If you can get them to fire on enemy infantry, its almost a gareentee to kill them or at least break them and make them panic and run.

So I have found with breaking the enemy. You do not need to hit them to get the break and panic. just need a near miss to get that result.

So you can area fire and get that result if its next to the enemy.

So on offence, you might be able to not move into line of sight, but move into a spot where they cannot see you and you cannot see them. But you can still area fire into the action square next to them. which will do the job sometimes without being shot down. Also because of their great inaccuraccy, they might actually hit the target and then get you a gareenteed great result.

This is interesting. I haven't noticed that ever happening, but it would be great if it works like this.

[chuckdyke]

6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

This is interesting.

It worked for me in Knocking them all Down Campaign in FB.

[Phantom Captain]

One of my favorite George Carlin bits:

Just the fact that a flamethrower exists means that somewhere at some point at some time, someone said to themselves, "You know, I'd really to set those people over there on fire... but they're just too far away."

Edited July 27, 2023 by Phantom Captain

[chuckdyke]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:17 PM, Phantom Captain said:

but they're just too far away."

Is 20 meters too far too? I thought I had the right man for the job and he threw a grenade! I am disappointed to say the least.

 

[chuckdyke]

Talking about hand grenades didn't know they could explode with the pin still attached. 2nd time I spot this.

 

[Brille]

On 7/30/2023 at 12:49 PM, chuckdyke said:

Is 20 meters too far too? I thought I had the right man for the job and he threw a grenade! I am disappointed to say the least.

 

Haven´t used flamethrowers that much but maybe the deploy time wasn´t over ? By the way what has a flamethrower-guy to deploy anyways ? Aren´t they "ready for battle" from the get go ?

I mean sure they would have to flip a switch or seal for safety measures before firing but what is this guy doing for 17 seconds ? Do they have to wait for a pressure build up ?

 

On 7/30/2023 at 2:46 PM, chuckdyke said:

Talking about hand grenades didn't know they could explode with the pin still attached. 2nd time I spot this.

 

Yeah this is "normal" in combat mission terms. The pin is always shown in these pine apple grenades. But since it´s only a minor detail...well...

Probably would lead to some giggles if some conscript soldiers really would forget to pull the pin from time to time. With a german laughing at the receiving end yelling "Hahaha you Dummkopf !"

Edited July 31, 2023 by Brille

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, Brille said:

Haven´t used flamethrowers that much but maybe the deploy time wasn´t over ?

I used it in exactly the same way as US engineers in FB Knock them all down. If you can't use them the Out of Range pops up. Well I hoped for a nice flame for a screenshot.