Assault, Squad Only

[Probus]

Does anyone know why a squad can assault but a fire team can't?  Is it just too few members or maybe leadership (squad leader)?

[Combatintman]

10 hours ago, Probus said:

Does anyone know why a squad can assault but a fire team can't?  Is it just too few members or maybe leadership (squad leader)?

According to the manual, headcount is a factor which will deny the command to a squad/section when it falls below a certain (unspecified number).  Realism-wise it makes sense as while teams often fire and manoeuvre in pairs it is more a squad/section thing than a fire team thing.

[domfluff]

Assault is automated fire and manoeuvre between teams.... each element that moves is one of the elements you get from "Split squads", i.e., one of each of the two-three defined teams.

Now, should teams be able to subdivide? Maybe, but CM's scale has the team as the lowest element.

[Erwin]

Assault is the shortcut when one cannot be bothered to split a squad into teams.  Otherwise one can do assaults with teams but have to give orders to each team separately.

It is odd that 9 man squads can only be split into 2 teams.  So if one splits off a 2-man scout team, one is left with an unwieldy 7 man unsplittable team.  However, in CMBS the Ukrainian(?) troops are in 7 man squads that can be split into 3 teams:  2-2-3.  This is really useful as one can split off the guy with LMG and use the others for assault.  If it can be done here why not for all squads in all games?  Is it doctrine that all other nations' 7 man teams cannot be split??

[RockinHarry]

7 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Assault is the shortcut when one cannot be bothered to split a squad into teams.  Otherwise one can do assaults with teams but have to give orders to each team separately.

It is odd that 9 man squads can only be split into 2 teams.  So if one splits off a 2-man scout team, one is left with an unwieldy 7 man unsplittable team.  However, in CMBS the Ukrainian(?) troops are in 7 man squads that can be split into 3 teams:  2-2-3.  This is really useful as one can split off the guy with LMG and use the others for assault.  If it can be done here why not for all squads in all games?  Is it doctrine that all other nations' 7 man teams cannot be split??

Not just that. I oftenly find the first team starting the assault is the support team which I don´t like. Fairly much a random thing and it puts an AIP at a disadvantage quite in particular, also considering it doesn´t have some move orders a human player has available. (move +hunt) For my own assault I always split teams and decide which ones move and which ones support. As well would be desirable if one can just split off a 2-3 men lmg team and then decide where the squad leader goes. He has the binoculars and lmg team would benefit from squad leader the most. Particularly when the enemy is still beyond 300m range.

[Erwin]

20 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I always split teams and decide which ones move and which ones support.

I think that is what most experienced players do.

[callada]

On 10/30/2022 at 3:16 PM, RockinHarry said:

Not just that. I oftenly find the first team starting the assault is the support team which I don´t like. Fairly much a random thing and it puts an AIP at a disadvantage quite in particular, also considering it doesn´t have some move orders a human player has available. (move +hunt) For my own assault I always split teams and decide which ones move and which ones support. As well would be desirable if one can just split off a 2-3 men lmg team and then decide where the squad leader goes. He has the binoculars and lmg team would benefit from squad leader the most. Particularly when the enemy is still beyond 300m range.

 

Now I am wondering if there is a fixed distance for each "leg" of the assault command.  I never noticed support going first and split in these cases because chances are it'll be bad if anyone stops before they get where they're going.

[RockinHarry]

15 minutes ago, callada said:

 

Now I am wondering if there is a fixed distance for each "leg" of the assault command.  I never noticed support going first and split in these cases because chances are it'll be bad if anyone stops before they get where they're going.

Then you´re lucky, but maybe also depends on assaulting squad types, composition, nationality and such. At least when playing germans I oftenly see the lMG half squad going first. IIRC the default movement leg is around 70-80m if not given a shorter one manually. That from my memory ATM.

Edited October 31, 2022 by RockinHarry

[Probus]

So can someone describe how you best assault manually?  I thought you had to use the assault command for some reason.

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Probus said:

So can someone describe how you best assault manually?  I thought you had to use the assault command for some reason.

Doing the quick move with well-placed waypoints is Imo something to be considered. The troops waiting at the waypoint for other teams to catch up will engage enemy units especially giving them an additional 5sec pause. The assault command to be given when the hand grenade becomes the primary weapon. Less than three action squares. Brits WW2 a section has three teams split three ways and keep the Bren team for support. Let the other two teams merge and use them for the assault. 

[A Canadian Cat]

6 hours ago, Probus said:

So can someone describe how you best assault manually?  I thought you had to use the assault command for some reason.

I like to split teams and have one firing on the enemy position while other team moves up. If the distance covered is a bit long then besides getting MGs and Mortars involved I also have the first team firing while the other is moving and then switch it up. Have them move a couple of Action Squares while the other is firing and when the moving team gets to its destination they start firing. Use pauses of 15, 20 or 30s depending on the actual distance and how important it is that someone is firing at all times (see above about available support weapons). After a while you being to get an idea of how long to make the moves and how long to pause the teams.

[Artkin]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:27 PM, RockinHarry said:

Then you´re lucky, but maybe also depends on assaulting squad types, composition, nationality and such. At least when playing germans I oftenly see the lMG half squad going first. IIRC the default movement leg is around 70-80m if not given a shorter one manually. That from my memory ATM.

I once had an image of my soviet 9 man squad (CMRT) spread about 3-400m across a field on a Quick move order. I was impressed.

[domfluff]

8 hours ago, Probus said:

So can someone describe how you best assault manually?  I thought you had to use the assault command for some reason.

The Assault command can genuinely be useful, but it's always optional.

You typically really want to use it in a less than optimal situation, where you have to move your squad under fire, and need to supply your own fire support - i.e., when your situation is that you're pressed for time, out of position, and you need to accept risk to turn the situation around. Things have *gone wrong*, and you need to fix this before this scenario becomes permanent.

It's worth experimenting with it to understand how to use it.

If you plot Assault command moves, with target lines from each waypoint, then as soon as the moving element stops, they will open fire. This way, the squad keeps up a continuous volume of fire at the target, rather than hoping that the stationary element can spot things in time.

For this, you generally want to use it over short distances, and perhaps with multiple waypoints. It can be extremely useful, especially for things like Soviet dismounts, who should have their IFV also providing area fire at the same time - this way the squad is only ever moving a single team, whilst the other team and the ifv are mag-dumping into the targeted building or the like.

This will be extremely wasteful for ammunition, but that's sort-of the point - if you're doing this with a soviet section, they're performing their duty correctly. The ifv will have enough rounds to give them a single full reload, so you can do this twice a battle, but it's clearly an effective and useful way of doing things, and works well even with poor quality troops.

This is the kind of thing you really can't do manually, but it's a narrow use-case, and isn't the most efficient thing in the world.

If I was using infantry in a more precise mode, I wouldn't touch assault, and instead just spilt squads myself. This will be a lot slower, and the volume of fire will be less exuberant, but you won't end up spaffing thousands of rounds against an empty farmhouse.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

I once had an image of my soviet 9 man squad (CMRT) spread about 3-400m across a field on a Quick move order. I was impressed.

Sorry, I meant move orders that auto split squads by default like is i.e advance, assault etc unlike move, quick & dash which push the whole squad to their limits (if getting exhausted they auto switch to move). There´s some variations to all of it but just from my memory ATM.

[RockinHarry]

13 minutes ago, domfluff said:

If you plot Assault command moves, with target lines from each waypoint, then as soon as the moving element stops, they will open fire. This way, the squad keeps up a continuous volume of fire at the target, rather than hoping that the stationary element can spot things in time.

that´s a good and useful one. A more defensive variation would be face command given at waypoints, so the individual teams (if there´s any) deployments at destination waypoints can be predetermined. If all things go well only off course. And all that stuff can be "teached" the AIP in likewise manner (scripting).

[womble]

The information in this thread is devolving into confusion.

21 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

The assault command to be given when the hand grenade becomes the primary weapon.

Why? Why do this:

21 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Let the other two teams merge and use them for the assault. 

? You've already got them split, you can control what they do. Why leave it to the TacAI after having micro'ed your approach?

12 hours ago, domfluff said:

You typically really want to use it in a less than optimal situation, where you have to move your squad under fire, and need to supply your own fire support - i.e., when your situation is that you're pressed for time, out of position, and you need to accept risk to turn the situation around. Things have *gone wrong*, and you need to fix this before this scenario becomes permanent.

If you're talking about RT, then maybe this has some mileage. But, in WeGo, using your squads split is almost always better: your "own fire support" can be tailored better to the situation by choosing your team splits; you can tailor your wait times at each waypoint to change the emphasis placed on fire or movement and control your troops' fatigue rate/recovery; you can incorporate different movement modes (Slow, Quick and Fast all have their place; Move has no place in an assault evolution and Hunt is of very limited use, since it cancels all following waypoints if it's triggered).

12 hours ago, domfluff said:

If you plot Assault command moves, with target lines from each waypoint...This is the kind of thing you really can't do manually

This is simply untrue. It takes time to do, and so probably isn't practcable in Real Time (if you don't/cant pause), but it's entirely possible to do in WeGo or if you can freely pause your game. In fact, in RT-with-profligate-pausing, if you're crisis-managing a squad, you can (if you're prepared to do the micro) do "better" than in WeGo, since you don't have to use "guesstimated" pause times and can perfectly coordinate the actions of the firing and moving elements. The methodology for WeGo has been ably described by IanL.

12 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

A more defensive variation would be face command given at waypoints, so the individual teams (if there´s any) deployments at destination waypoints can be predetermined.

You can use Face, or Target Arcs, for sure. But this is probably an edge case, since if you're under fire, you probably know where it's coming from and want to hose it down without having to wait for your pTruppen to acquire the target; having them seek a target might well give that target time to suppress the team that just stopped moving.

12 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

And all that stuff can be "teached" the AIP in likewise manner (scripting).

Erm, wut? The TacAI in CM is a very simplistic rules-based system. It has no capacity to learn anything. And what "scripting" are you referring to.

Or did I miss something.

21 hours ago, Probus said:

So can someone describe how you best assault manually?

IanL described the procedure pretty well. Some supplementary points:

• split your squads so that the short range weapons are in one team and the support weapons are in another.
• choose your movement modes for the movement legs wisely. Fast is good, especially if you're using short legs, with longish firing pauses for the pTruppen to get their wind back; you might not want individual members of the moving team to pause to return fire, especially when they'll be stopping soon anyway. Quick is good if you want some responsiveness in your moving teams. Slow is good for one AS if you want your team to drop into cover and throw the opposition's target acquisition off, or for the actual last leg where you're chucking grenades and bayonets might notionally become involved.
• you can give the "Assault team" (with the grenades and SMGs) Target Arc orders if you want, so they don't spaff their precious ammo on suppressive efforts at long range. 
• if your squad splits into three teams, you can have two covering and one moving, or the other way round, depending on the situation.
• you can coordinate teams that are not part of the same squad (either different squads or independent teams) in the same evolution.

There are probably other things that you'll pick up for yourself when you start using this method.

22 hours ago, Probus said:

I thought you had to use the assault command for some reason.

The Assault command is confusingly named. It is just another movement mode, and has no direct relationship to "dislodging the enemy from their positions and taking their place". It is, as far as I can tell, a pure convenience, mostly in place for the purposes of unpaused RealTime players, or those who prefer not to have to micromanage. Any other movement command can be used to get up close and personal to the enemy's positions, with varying degrees of efficiency, both inherent to the inbuilt priorities of the mode chosen, and the context in which the choice is made. Slow can be the best way of assaulting through a door into an occupied building, for example.

As far as I know, the Assault command doesn't bestow any particular attitudinal bonus for "attacking the other guy". I think that was confirmed by Steve "way back when". As I recall, it uses the same speed and priority set for the TacAI as "Quick" (so sometimes they'll return fire during a movement leg), and alternates movement between teams of a squad. 

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, womble said:

Why? Why do this:

It is the killer at close attacks 

 

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, womble said:

You've already got them split, you can control what they do.

Avenue of approach easier to control.

 

[RockinHarry]

2 hours ago, womble said:

You can use Face, or Target Arcs, for sure. But this is probably an edge case, since if you're under fire, you probably know where it's coming from and want to hose it down without having to wait for your pTruppen to acquire the target; having them seek a target might well give that target time to suppress the team that just stopped moving.

I´s talking of using "face" where I want the squads sections to deploy in certain action spots. You know the yellow squares that show up when hitting G on selected waypoint and move the mouse around. I don´t leave that to the TacAI´s decision if possible, since it has its own view of what is cover terrain. Not that it´s the way I play the game usually, but that´s the idea.

2 hours ago, womble said:

Erm, wut? The TacAI in CM is a very simplistic rules-based system. It has no capacity to learn anything. And what "scripting" are you referring to.

Or did I miss something.

Sure it is (simplistic). But it as well can use Face, target area, various fire modes etc. and when using retreat toward selected direction it can bits of cover its own movement by throwing some smoke grenades. So "teaching" is rather scripting the AI´s orders in ways to mimic what a human player can and would do. With known limitations (no move nor hunt etc orders) Off course it doesn´t learn anything. lol Hope this will be next generation CM game engine. But one can keep dreaming....

[Pelican Pal]

Like @womble said some people in this thread are confusing ease of use for some sort of unique capability. 


The assault command exists to allow a player to quickly bound a squad to a location. Its functionally worse than manually splitting the squad and doing it yourself. The only provided benefit is that it takes less time. The Assault Command exists for real-time players.

If you have the time you will get better results by manually splitting the squad and moving each element yourself. Using Quick, Fast, pause commands, target commands, and so on. 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 3:11 PM, callada said:

Now I am wondering if there is a fixed distance for each "leg" of the assault command.  I never noticed support going first and split in these cases because chances are it'll be bad if anyone stops before they get where they're going.

IIRC the longer the waypoint the longer the legs are
 

[womble]

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

It is the killer at close attacks 

Evidence? As I said, I believe that Mr BFC himself, Steve, has said that it doesn't give any "assaulty" benefits. It's a pure convenience to reduce micromanagement.

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Avenue of approach easier to control.

There's a verb or some punctuation missing from this statement, depriving it of clarity. Can you elucidate?

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I´s talking of using "face" where I want the squads sections to deploy in certain action spots. You know the yellow squares that show up when hitting G on selected waypoint and move the mouse around.

Ah. I understand what you mean. However, since there will be two AS highlighted at the waypoint, and (assuming a two team squad) only one of them will stop there (the other will bound on past without stopping), how do you get the stopping team to stop anywhere other than the AS that's on top of the waypoint? Frankly, I'm not sure you can, and I don't think this approach will achieve what you hope for, except at the last waypoint, where all elements will "rally".

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Sure it is (simplistic). But it as well can use Face, target area, various fire modes etc. and when using retreat toward selected direction it can bits of cover its own movement by throwing some smoke grenades. So "teaching" is rather scripting the AI´s orders in ways to mimic what a human player can and would do. With known limitations (no move nor hunt etc orders) Off course it doesn´t learn anything. lol Hope this will be next generation CM game engine. But one can keep dreaming....

Ah, so I think you're suggesting that BFC incorporate some of the refinements people already use when they're using split teams into the TacAI's own SOPs?

[Artkin]

The Assault command is perfect to use alongside a hedge/low wall when you don't want to manually bound your troops. Otherwise the Assault command is a sure way to get your squad killed.

[RockinHarry]

27 minutes ago, womble said:

Ah. I understand what you mean. However, since there will be two AS highlighted at the waypoint, and (assuming a two team squad) only one of them will stop there (the other will bound on past without stopping), how do you get the stopping team to stop anywhere other than the AS that's on top of the waypoint? Frankly, I'm not sure you can, and I don't think this approach will achieve what you hope for, except at the last waypoint, where all elements will "rally".

Yup I was unclear. Meant final waypoint for deploying the way I want them to. Otherwise it´s just a temporary thing and the TacAI keeps doing its mostly random way of moving teams. Optionally one can use the pause command as well. Detail stopping AS is also defined by which team contains the squad leader. It´s the blinking yellow square then.

35 minutes ago, womble said:

Ah, so I think you're suggesting that BFC incorporate some of the refinements people already use when they're using split teams into the TacAI's own SOPs?

Now I´m bits of confused. I mean using script commands (in AI plans) that we´ve available in CM AI plan editor already. Some combos "can" mimic human ways of pushing things across the map "if" used in right order and in appropriate environment (terrain, likely enemy disposition etc) But if BFC adds more options (and AI groups) it would be great as well. I.e basic AIP movement modes are geared toward using speed / non cover terrain, meaning it´ll expose itself almost all the time when moving from A to B. So more move zones for AI are required so it moves into cover and not around it because it considers it a movement obstacle. But that´s the same for human player units and their TacAI. It´s just more effort when scripting the AIP and it is inflexible for lack of conditional branch scripting (if - then i.e)

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, womble said:

Evidence?

After playing 20 years CM and keeping a log of what works and what doesn't. Almost everything is concluded with hand grenades, at least with the way I play the game.