I Can't Wait For The East And West Germans To Arrive

[Simcoe]

6 hours ago, holoween said:

I have yet to bounce anything with m60s so leo1 having the same gun performance (no idea about the fcs) but being smaller and faster should if anything be an improvement.

I think thats the same conclusion the French and Germans had. Might as well build enough armor to protect against autocannon and use the remainder on more speed and firepower.

[Centurian52]

I guess I'm not really expecting the Chieftain to perform phenomenally better than the M60 in the timeframe of CMCW. I believe it's still using the same L15APDS ammunition in 1979-1982 that it had in 1965 (I don't think the L23 APFSDS comes out until 1985), so despite having a bigger gun I don't think it will prove any better at killing T-64s than the M60 (I think the L15 should perform better than the M728, but not quite as well as the M735). Its Stillbrew armor package won't come out until 1986, well after the timeframe of CMCW. I have, on rare occasions, seen rounds bounce off of the needle nosed turret of the M60 (exception, not the rule). Perhaps a higher proportion of rounds will bounce off of the thicker armor and steeper angles of the Chieftain's turret, but given that it's still just homogenous steel against late 70s/ early 80s ammunition I expect the overwhelming majority of rounds will still get through. 

I expect if CMCW had been set in the late 60s/ early 70s the Chieftain would be significantly more survivable with significantly more firepower than the M60 (or if it had been set in the late 80s for that matter, when the Chieftain had newer ammunition and Stillbrew armor). But in the game's current setting I expect the main practical difference to be that it will have somewhat worse mobility.

The Leopard 1 should be the exact opposite. I still don't expect it to be any more survivable (in fact, if it was rare for the M60 to bounce a shot, the Leo 1 should never bounce a shot) or be any better at killing T-64s, but it should be a bit faster. In any case, I can hardly wait to see both the Chieftain and the Leopard 1 in action. While this might not be the most flattering time period for the Chieftain, it is still an interesting vehicle.

I'm not sure if the Marder will quite be a match for the BMP-2 (should be better than the BMP-1), but will definitely stand more of a chance than the M113. Does anyone happen to know what the British mech-infantry are riding around in from 1979-1982? I'm pretty sure the Warrior hasn't entered service yet.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Centurian52

[Combatintman]

8 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

I'm not sure if the Marder will quite be a match for the BMP-2 (should be better than the BMP-1), but will definitely stand more of a chance than the M113. Does anyone happen to know what the British mech-infantry are riding around in from 1979-1982? I'm pretty sure the Warrior hasn't entered service yet.

Boots DMS for Light role, FV-432 for Mech Inf, CVR-T for RAC - no Warrior.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Combatintman

[Centurian52]

15 hours ago, Halmbarte said:

**At least CM doesn't model engine reliability...

Thank Steve for small mercies

[chuckdyke]

11 hours ago, holoween said:

smaller and faster should if anything be an improvement.

The European infrastructure also plays a role. Example the Sherman and British cruisers in WW2 which could negotiate most bridges in Europe. The German tanks by that time were defending so maneuvering played a lesser role. The Leo1 like the M60 was a tank the designers felt they should have had during WW2. That era came to an end with the ATGM. 

[Codreanu]

Has HESH ever been modeled in a CM game? If not, the Chieftain would be stuck with nothing but APDS and maybe a smoke shell, right?

[Halmbarte]

1 hour ago, Codreanu said:

Has HESH ever been modeled in a CM game? If not, the Chieftain would be stuck with nothing but APDS and maybe a smoke shell, right?

I'm pretty sure the Challengers in SF2 have HESH.

I like HESH as a multipurpose round. It's great for mouse holing entry points for infantry and blows up infantry and light vehicles decently. 

H

[Halmbarte]

8 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

Think you misread. He's saying when he is commanding M60s he's never had their armour defeat Soviet rounds; so in that case he might as well get the same firepower in a nimbler package.

Yeppers, that was what I was trying to communicate. 

I haven't never had M60s bounce a Sov round*, but it's like getting a rare bonus. Great when it happens but don't count on it. 

H

*I'm remembering a few solid shot that have been deflected by the armor on a M60, and a few HEAT that got penetrations but managed to miss anything vital. Those cases being the exception much more than the rule and the TacAI does seem to fire more HEAT with the 100 and 115mm main guns when sooting at M60s. 

[Hacketäuer]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:34 PM, Simcoe said:

How different would the East Germans be? Wouldn't it all be the same Soviet hardware?

In contrast to the soviet OOB, we would see a number of T-72´s in frontline use with the NVA. No T-62, a lot of upgraded T-55 and only very few BMP-2´s. Interestingly, in contrast to german army tradition, "Auftragstaktik" (mission command) was not in use in the NVA.

To have the NVA would be great. Those helmets for me epitomize the cold war. And as it has been said, they would have been in the forefront of an Invasion. There even was a "Blücher-Orden" (award) already prepared for the first units to cross the rhine. 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Hacketäuer

[sawomi]

11 hours ago, Hacketäuer said:

To have the NVA would be great. Those helmets for me epitomize the cold war.

They where developed in the 3.Reich as M45 / Type BII (prototype was registered as patent on December 7, 1943), but only testet in combat by the Wehrmacht in small numbers (picture from September 1944, Westfront):

source: https://archive.org/details/DieDeutscheWochenschauNr.733 (Minute 5:48)

In GDR M45 was then improved to M56 NVA version.

-> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M45_(Stahlhelm)

Supposedly, before the introduction of Kevlar helmets, they had the the best ballistic protection and earshot range.

Would be cool if this could be simulated in CMCW. (like very small percentage increase for shrapnel protection and command audibility range).

Edited July 2, 2022 by sawomi

[Gary R Lukas]

Maybe the game designers will add some Soviet Airborne Troops with the BMD and SU-57, Then we can forget about the Soviet Marines!! I really can't wait to see how the Leopard I and Leopard II fair against the T-64/T-72. The early German Leopard tank isn't the same tank in CMSF, just like the Abrams tank it had many modifications done to it in the first 10 years. I just started reading a book on the Leopard II by Osprey Publishing. it's the Leopard II from 1979-1998, so that's how I'm going to learn about its upgrades. I would also like to see the HOT and Milan Missiles in use.

[Halmbarte]

The Milan in SF2 has a very long minimum distance of 400m if I remember right. It can be hard to find places to deploy it even in the deserts of Syria. 

I do want to play around with the HOT version of the RakJPz. 

H

[zmoney]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:42 AM, Rinaldi said:

Think you misread. He's saying when he is commanding M60s he's never had their armour defeat Soviet rounds; so in that case he might as well get the same firepower in a nimbler package.

Ah, I see now. True to that then.

[chuckdyke]

An interesting video about the M60 here in Austrian service. Austria was supposed to be neutral during that period. It has English subtitles. 

 

[Gary R Lukas]

It would also be great to see the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions then add some M-551 Sheridan's to the mix and now you have a Force Multiplier, and then add some Soviet Su-57 and Su-85's, a few Bmd's. Dang just the Airborne Units could be a module all by itself.

[Artkin]

Did someone say XVIII corps? 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Artkin

[Halmbarte]

Chieftain might have more trouble with T62s than I expected: 

 

H

 

[Meach]

I got into CMCW recently and the chance of trying out BRD and DDR formations is really exciting.  I hope we see the Czechoslovakian and Polish WP nations as well at some point.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Meach