How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, Carolus said:

https://t.me/zvizdecmanhustu/2178

Series of longer posts, as usual, by Mashovets on the Donetsk front. The summary is: Ukrainians remain hard-pressed and are pulling back, while Russia is running out of steam for offensives in some ways (they don't get faster, but slower), but is also able to bring in simply more and more reserves into the area to continue to push the Ukrainians further back. 

That was my read of it as well.

I think what we're seeing here is that not much has changed on the Russian side.  They have achieved advances at the expense of being able to exploit.  The difference is that Ukraine doesn't seem to have enough combat power in the immediate area and that means they can't fully stop Russia from achieving a slow moving frontal assault.

What we can hope for is Ukraine being able to move enough forces into the area to tip the balance into the usual pattern of Russia expending its remaining combat power without advancing much at all.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, Fenris said:

Top clip shows FPV kill stealing a recce drone from another FPV following.  Bottom is a whole series of intercepts (clips are a bit loud)

 

That second video was really impressive.  It provides some visuals for all the reports we've been seeing.  It's also a reminder that the counters that Ukraine has developed are useful against any Russian ISR drone.  Which means the Ukrainian unit can send up an interceptor without positively identifying the type because they are all effectively the same from a targeting standpoint.

Steve

[Sequoia]

3 hours ago, sburke said:

So like France was the gauls/celts, then romans, then Norse....... oh wait.  Skip that .. So like England was the Celts, then the Romans, then the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes hmmmm

More like the old world was a melting pot of whoever could move based on existing transportation means then the Old World exported that to well pretty much everyone else. 

 

Well yeah, Old World nations had long periods of mixing but for the most part has consolidated long before the US and Canada existed. One could argue both of them are older than Germany and Italy are as Nations, but the people in those countries considered themselves Germans and Italians overall despite some natural provincialism.

[sburke]

9 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

Well yeah, Old World nations had long periods of mixing but for the most part has consolidated long before the US and Canada existed. One could argue both of them are older than Germany and Italy are as Nations, but the people in those countries considered themselves Germans and Italians overall despite some natural provincialism.

My mother has the immigration papers for I think my great great grandfather emigrating from Hanoverian Germany which was then part of the British empire.  

[danfrodo]

28 minutes ago, sburke said:

My mother has the immigration papers for I think my great great grandfather emigrating from Hanoverian Germany which was then part of the British empire.  

I bet they wuz cat eaters, damn furriners

[Battlefront.com]

OK, I think we can knock off the immigrant/mixing stuff.  Not really on topic, as interesting and slightly humorous as it might be.

Steve

[Eug85]

8 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Heh, well you and I both know if we didn’t fund things in bad taste the CBC would not exist.

As to warcrimes, I am not sure every film made about this war is pro-Russian if it does not highlight warcrimes. I mean this whole damned war is a crime. But not every story is about that. A documentary on failing morale and loss of faith in a war can be incredibly powerful. Especially with home audiences - there is a question: is Russia going to allow this film to be seen at home?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_at_War

Given this write up, I am less sure. This does not sound pro-Russian at all. Beyond the fact it shows Russian soldiers as human beings - which they are in the end. That said, they made their choices and get what is coming to them - decide or get talked into an immoral and illegal war, take your chances.

But showing just how bad things are for Russian troops does not sound like a positive spin job to me. Hell, the crew snuck into a unit to pull this off.

Is it stated in this film that Russian soldiers went to Ukraine for the simple purpose of profit?

They invaded a neighboring state, destroyed its infrastructure and killed its locals only to receive large salaries from their government. How humane do you think this looks?

This film was shot with the full support of the Russian Defense Ministry. Journalists talked to soldiers on the front lines; the Russian Defense Ministry does not allow independent journalists to its troops. All footage is carefully checked by the FSB for harm to the Russian state. The film's director says that she is quite happy with life in Putin's Russia.

I think the next logical step for independent art lovers in Canada would be to show a Russian film about evil and insidious Ukrainian fascists and the good guys from Russia who fight them.

Putin's regime spares no expense or connections in the fight for its goals. They use the slightest opportunity to whitewash this crime called the war in Ukraine. And as we see, they are doing very well at it. Since 2022, support for Ukraine among Western citizens has been steadily declining. The West is full of idiots who willingly cooperate with Russian propaganda and make money under the guise of freedom of speech

[Battlefront.com]

Predictably, Vlad The Imploder is threatening NATO if they authorize the use of its weapons within Russia:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4877639-putin-threatens-nato-reports-long-range-weapons-russia/

This is pretty funny given the 2 years of NATO weapons hammering Crimea and all kinds of NATO weapons being used against targets in the Donbas and the south of Ukraine despite these also being claimed as Russian lands.  Even funnier still is the fact that NATO weaponry, including vehicles, are tooling around in Kursk blowing stuff up at this very moment.

By Vlad's logic the nature of the war changed long ago and they did nothing meaningful about it.  I wonder what token thing they might be planning if any NATO country authorizes the use of their stuff on real Russian soil beyond Kursk.

Steve

[Eug85]

Here is another good example of Russian propaganda successfully promoted in the West. Oliver Stone's film "Ukraine on Fire", where the cliches of Russian propaganda are successfully promoted.

By the way, according to Pekka, the filming of the movie "Russians at War" also used Canadian state finances. What could be better for an aggressor state than promoting its own propaganda using the money of its probable enemy.

[Carolus]

Quote

The Russian command seems to be trying to deploy the maximum possible amount of forces and resources on the adjacent flanks of its troop groups (GV) "Center" and "South"...

In the context of the implementation of this aspiration, on the left (southern) flank of the offensive of the 2nd Combined Arms Army (OVA) and the 90th Tank Division (TD) of the GV "Center", as well as to the south, the enemy, in addition to the previously deployed units and formations, ADDITIONALLY deployed a significant part of its 1st Army Corps (AK), from the GV "South", in particular:

- 1st "Slavic" separate motorized rifle brigade (OMSBR)

- 9th separate motorized rifle brigade

- 114th separate motorized rifle brigade

- a number of units of the 110th separate motorized rifle brigade

- 428th separate motorized rifle regiment (SMRR)

In turn, from the south (from the Krasnogorovka side) the enemy, as part of the Guards Forces "South", also deployed significant forces:

- 5th separate motorized rifle brigade

- the main forces of the 110th separate motorized rifle brigade

- at least one battalion of the 114th separate motorized rifle brigade

Thus, at the moment the enemy is trying to encircle our troops on the bridgehead, east of the Volchya River, in the direction of the village of Nevelskoye with the forces of almost the entire 1st Army Corps (minus one, the 132nd Separate Motorized Rifle Brigade) + a full-fledged tank division (the 90th Tank Division, which has all three of its tank regiments (TR) deployed in this direction - the 6th, 80th and 239th TR + the 228th MRR).

In essence, in order to solve the "problem of the southern flank" of its 2nd OVA (Selidovo area and Gornyak-Kurakhovka line), which was targeting Pokrovsk and Mirnograd, the enemy command of the GV "Center" and "South" forces created another, a kind of "temporary combined arms army", consisting of an army corps and a tank division...

And it gives results...

At present, the enemy's advanced units are already fighting in the village of Ukrainsk (at least in its southern and eastern parts), have managed to push our troops south of Novogrodovka (the Ukrainian Armed Forces have apparently left the village of Marinovka), and have also reached the northern outskirts of the village of Gornyak...

However, the most unpleasant thing in this regard is the fact of the breakthrough of the enemy's advanced units between Ukrainsk and Selidovo, from the Memrik side... And although the enemy has not been able to advance into the city of Selidovo itself from the Mikhailovka side for about a week now, this breakthrough to the south of the city still significantly complicates the overall situation with its defense. Especially if we recall the persistent and persistent attacks of the enemy in the direction of Selidovo from the Novogrodovka side, through the already captured Marinovka, which continue almost non-stop...

But it seems that the Ukrainian command is fully aware of the seriousness of the current situation there.

For, obviously, it had already begun a gradual withdrawal of its advanced units from the entire Nevelsk uprising in order to avoid their encirclement.

The advanced units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are retreating gradually, from line to line, waging stubborn rearguard battles in the Galitsynovka area and north of Krasnogorovka.

They will probably first withdraw to the Zhelazalnoye Pervoye-Zvezdnoye line, and then concentrate on the Gornyak-Kurakhovka line, straightening the front line. At the same time, the key factor for carrying out this complex and important maneuver is keeping the village of Gornyak under the control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

If the enemy manages to capture it in the near future, then the situation will "very sharply" and "very dramatically" worsen.

2. As for the Pokrovsky direction itself , where the main forces of the 2nd combined arms army (OVA) of the enemy are operating, namely the 27th motorized rifle division (MSD) in full force, the 15th and 30th separate motorized rifle brigades (SMRB) and part of the forces of the 114th SMRB, the situation here has not exactly stabilized (since the enemy continues to conduct fairly intensive attack/assault operations here and has made some progress), but, let's say, has lost momentum.

The enemy's advances here are minimal and are mainly limited to two areas - the area west of Novogrodovka (towards Lysovka and Sukhoi Yar) and Grodovka itself (or more precisely, its southeastern part).

In essence, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are trying to take advantage of the natural barrier provided to them by the Zhuravka and Kazeny Torets rivers...

At the moment, the most threatening in terms of further enemy advancement is the Novogrodovka - Sukhoi Yar direction, where the enemy managed to advance towards Lysovka, acting along the Solenaya River, this is the closest mark to Pokrovsk to which the enemy advanced.

And although it is obvious that the attention of the enemy's Guards Command "Center" is currently focused primarily on the Selidovo-Kurakhovka section, where, in fact, fierce battles are currently taking place, the purpose of which is the enemy's attempt to cut off our forward units east of the Ukrainsk-Kurakhovka line, however, in the Pokrovsk direction itself the situation looks no less difficult, although not at all hopeless.

The fact is that it is obvious that the enemy cannot carry out a "classic" "bypass and envelopment" operation against the city of Pokrovsk at the moment, for two main reasons...

- As long as Selidovo holds out, the hypothetical southern front of this "coverage" is very much in question...

- Just as the "theoretically possible" breakthrough of the enemy to the Mirnograd-Malinovka line (the "starting" line for the hypothetical northern face of such a "bypass") will have some real prospects only in the event of a breakthrough of the enemy beyond the Zhuravka and Kazeny Torets rivers, which is not currently in sight...

So what is left for the enemy?

That's right, to continue the frontal ("head-on") offensive towards Pokrovsk from the south-east direction, as he had done until now, along the Avdeevka-Pokrovsk railway...

Have we seen something like this somewhere before!? (This has happened before...)

True, the same thing happened (and continues to happen) in the area of the city of Chasov Yar, in the Kramatorsk direction, where the enemy, in the same way, "ran head-on" into the "Seversky Donets - Donbass" canal, unable to bypass the city, neither from the north nor from the south, and was forced to stop, having managed, at the cost of exerting all his forces, to "bite off" only the eastern quarter of the city, but unable to force (cross) the canal itself within the city limits...

While the Ukrainian Armed Forces control Selidovo , as well as the Shevchenko-Chunishino-Dachynskoye-Novy Trud area, and hold positions along the Zhuravka and Kazeny Torets rivers, the enemy is left to "gnaw through" the Ukrainian defenses towards Pokrovsk exclusively on both sides of the above-mentioned railway.

That is, to operate in a relatively narrow strip between the Solonenka and Zhuravka rivers (this is approximately 5 km), hoping that he will eventually be able to crawl to the south-eastern and eastern outskirts of Pokrovsk and “get a foothold” there.

And, apparently, the Russian command is fully aware of all the delights of such a situation. That is why it is now so "sharply", strongly and noticeably "concerned" with the flanks of its group, which is aimed at Pokrovsk. No one wants to receive a sudden and harsh "push" to the side, in the direction of the "main attack", even if not very powerful and even if only from one flank, at the most crucial moment of implementing its entire plan for the summer-autumn campaign.

This will still be extremely noticeable for the content of the entire plan and its main element. Especially when, by this very moment, a whole heap (or better to say, a large part) of the forces and resources accumulated with such difficulties earlier have ALREADY been spent on its implementation...

Therefore, we will see the main (principal) attempt, a kind of "daddy" of the enemy to take Pokrovsk not right now (that is, in the near future), but a little later...

And, today, there is a very high probability that it will look exactly like the relatively recent "assault" on the city of Chasov Yar in the conditions of the existence of the Klishchievsky bridgehead of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, in particular:

- Concentration of forces and resources in a relatively narrow area...
- Their "excessive massing", with high tactical density of combat formations...
- The appearance of the enemy's operational reserves literally "at the last moment" and their dispersal throughout the entire zone...

https://t.me/zvizdecmanhustu/2178

Series of longer posts, as usual, by Mashovets on the Donetsk front. The summary is: Ukrainians remain hard-pressed and are pulling back, while Russia is running out of steam for offensives in some ways (they don't get faster, but slower), but is also able to bring in simply more and more reserves into the area to continue to push the Ukrainians further back. 

[Carolus]

A Turkish merchant vessel was hit by a Russian Kh-22.

 

 

[Tux]

BBC article on the latest Russian "red lines":  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crrlr87e5elo

The author manages to recall how red lines have been set and crossed multiple times before but drifts past the opportunity to draw any meaning from that pattern, as regards either side's strategy.

Incidentally, they repeat this quote from Putin that I remember from June and that I still find interesting:

Quote

At a meeting with the heads of international news agencies, he was asked: how would Russia react if Ukraine was given the opportunity to hit targets on Russian territory with weapons supplied by Europe?

“First, we will, of course, improve our air defence systems. We will be destroying their missiles,” President Putin replied.

“Second, we believe that if someone is thinking it is possible to supply such weapons to a war zone to strike our territory and create problems for us, why can’t we supply our weapons of the same class to those regions around the world where they will target sensitive facilities of the countries that are doing this to Russia?”

Ruthless.  Can we imagine the uproar if this was a Western response to Russian weapons being aimed at NATO soil?  Amid all the gnashing of teeth about Western 'cowardice' perhaps it's helpful to note that Russia is very clearly afraid of uncontrolled escalation, as well.  Maybe even more so.

The negotiation is real, folks.

[Tux]

3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

By Vlad's logic the nature of the war changed long ago and they did nothing meaningful about it.  I wonder what token thing they might be planning if any NATO country authorizes the use of their stuff on real Russian soil beyond Kursk.

My honest guess is, if anything, they will do something that we don't see.  Behind the veil stuff in the Middle East, most probably (the quote in my post above isn't really all that cryptic).  I haven't seen any evidence for it but it wouldn't surprise me if Russian interests have already had a hand in at least the timing of a lot of the recent unrest in that region.

Edited Friday at 09:30 AM by Tux
quick addition

[Kraft]

42 minutes ago, Carolus said:

A Turkish merchant vessel was hit by a Russian Kh-22.

 

 

Inside Romanian economic zone too. Fortunately no one was injured.

https://romania.europalibera.org/a/o-racheta-ruseasca-a-lovit-in-marea-neagra-o-nava-cu-cereale-pentru-egipt-/33117547.html

 

[The_Capt]

4 hours ago, Eug85 said:

Is it stated in this film that Russian soldiers went to Ukraine for the simple purpose of profit?

They invaded a neighboring state, destroyed its infrastructure and killed its locals only to receive large salaries from their government. How humane do you think this looks?

This film was shot with the full support of the Russian Defense Ministry. Journalists talked to soldiers on the front lines; the Russian Defense Ministry does not allow independent journalists to its troops. All footage is carefully checked by the FSB for harm to the Russian state. The film's director says that she is quite happy with life in Putin's Russia.

I think the next logical step for independent art lovers in Canada would be to show a Russian film about evil and insidious Ukrainian fascists and the good guys from Russia who fight them.

Putin's regime spares no expense or connections in the fight for its goals. They use the slightest opportunity to whitewash this crime called the war in Ukraine. And as we see, they are doing very well at it. Since 2022, support for Ukraine among Western citizens has been steadily declining. The West is full of idiots who willingly cooperate with Russian propaganda and make money under the guise of freedom of speech

So from what I can tell it portrays some soldiers doing it for money amongst other reasons. The film states specifically that they went forward without permission from the Russian MoD. But your points on control do ring true. On the other hand given the chaos in the RA…?

However, until we get someone who has seen the film the rest is pretty much highly charged opinion. 

[The_Capt]

1 hour ago, Eug85 said:

Here is another good example of Russian propaganda successfully promoted in the West. Oliver Stone's film "Ukraine on Fire", where the cliches of Russian propaganda are successfully promoted.

By the way, according to Pekka, the filming of the movie "Russians at War" also used Canadian state finances. What could be better for an aggressor state than promoting its own propaganda using the money of its probable enemy.

Hold the phone now. So are movies like this Ukrainian propaganda that we should not trust either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_on_Fire:_Ukraine's_Fight_for_Freedom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Days_in_Mariupol

We are well aware of Russian information operations - I am convinced we have seen it right here on this thread. But not every film that does not portray Russian as inhuman monsters is “pro-Russian”. We also have this thing called freedom of speech, a messy but important concept, wherein people are free to express opinions. This is not a “weakness” it is in fact a strength and critical in a functioning democracy. 

[The_Capt]

Interesting and pretty balanced piece. It does reflect well how modern militaries are wrestling with the new realities of the battlefield.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-once-dominant-tank-is-getting-humbled-on-the-battlefield/ar-AA1quyEv?ocid=msedgntp&pc=NMTS&cvid=df98ea04c3e54a5994a297568550183c&ei=14

I suspect this debate will go on for so e years after this war. My guess is that smaller nations will move away from heavy, while larger ones will keep some level of capability as insurance. Once fully autonomous systems hit I suspect we will see another major shift.

However it happens though, I am convinced that we are not going back. We cannot unsee or unknow the impact modern technology is having. 

[Eug85]

28 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Hold the phone now. So are movies like this Ukrainian propaganda that we should not trust either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_on_Fire:_Ukraine's_Fight_for_Freedom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Days_in_Mariupol

We are well aware of Russian information operations - I am convinced we have seen it right here on this thread. But not every film that does not portray Russian as inhuman monsters is “pro-Russian”. We also have this thing called freedom of speech, a messy but important concept, wherein people are free to express opinions. This is not a “weakness” it is in fact a strength and critical in a functioning democracy. 

You misunderstood my post. Maybe it's because of my poor English. I didn't say that you should or shouldn't believe Russian or Ukrainian propaganda - that's everyone's personal business. My message was not to finance Russian propaganda, helping the Russians in their war of conquest. After all, propaganda is a means to achieve military goals. It's quite strange that Canada, as a NATO member, is helping Russia - a state that has repeatedly threatened NATO.

[Carolus]

1 hour ago, The_Capt said:

Hold the phone now. So are movies like this Ukrainian propaganda that we should not trust either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_on_Fire:_Ukraine's_Fight_for_Freedom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Days_in_Mariupol

 

That depends on their content and how or whether they divert from other sources of information, if any exist.

I have not seen these two movies (though I have been planning to watch "20 Days in Mariupol" as soon as I feel that I have the stomach for it). 

"Ukraine on Fire" by Stone is basically a series of interviews with Russian state affiliated apparatschniks who describe, one after another, the Russian story of the CIA Maidan coup and the ensuing separatist freedom fight in the East. One billion gajillion Donbas babies were sacrificed to Bandera. 

Of course Ukraine is also engaging in war propaganda. It tends to be less crude and less ridiculous than its Russian counterpart. And propaganda has several levels. Some can be showing an emphasis on the civilian impact of the war to gain sympathy, other an exaggeration of military success.

Quote

We also have this thing called freedom of speech, a messy but important concept, wherein people are free to express opinions. This is not a “weakness” it is in fact a strength and critical in a functioning democracy. 

It is both a weakness and a strength. It is a great civilisatory accomplishment, but it is also an "exploit", in the same manner a SW oversight can enable a hacker to gain access to a system and commit buggery, even though the OS being plugged into a network is an amazing achievement of information exchange. It might be an overreaction to pull the plug, but it can be a good idea to update the OS or erect a Firewall. 

Certain Russian media outlets were banned for a reason after Feb 22. 

Russia is usually not very subtle, but sometimes it can be when it hires a good film maker. 

People who actually saw the movie will have to analyze it - so far it does seem to have raised some eyebrows, at least.

Edited Friday at 11:30 AM by Carolus
typos

[Offshoot]

2 minutes ago, Carolus said:

People who actually saw the movie will have to anaylise it - so far it does seem to have raised some eyebrows.

Silicon Curtain has done an analysis (starting at 18:50), stating timestamps, describing the content and providing opinion on what they think marks it as propaganda - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBgxxgYk-xA

 

[The_Capt]

8 hours ago, Eug85 said:

You misunderstood my post. Maybe it's because of my poor English. I didn't say that you should or shouldn't believe Russian or Ukrainian propaganda - that's everyone's personal business. My message was not to finance Russian propaganda, helping the Russians in their war of conquest. After all, propaganda is a means to achieve military goals. It's quite strange that Canada, as a NATO member, is helping Russia - a state that has repeatedly threatened NATO.

Ok, well first off your point about not funding Russian propaganda is absolutely correct. No argument there.

But in this particular case we have not actually established that the film was indeed Russian propaganda (without seeing it), or was it honest freedom of expression. Even the Ukrainian diplomat admitted to not seeing the film. Does this film somehow assist Russia in achieving its military goals? Based on what I can find the answer is, "no". It is an anti-war film that portrays the disillusionment and horrid conditions Russian troops are living under...that is not going to help Putin in anyway shape or form. Just because it does not portray every Russian soldier as an inhuman monster does not play into Russia's hand.

As to "Canada helping Russia," again, here we go with leaps of opinion being sold as logical argument. This belongs right next to "NATO warplanes escorting Russian drones" it is outright misinformation. Without digging into the baffling Canadian Arts funding schemes too far, in this country the federal government sets aside piles of money to promote Canadian art (because few others will). Those pools get dolled out to the provinces and national organization. The provinces and organizations all do up nice annual reports showing how well they spent that money, all in line with federal policies.

At the provincial level, they do the same thing. Toss money out to producers and organizations who then are responsible to push onto the artists. Everyone takes a cut on the way down (sigh) but the money is eventually handed out to artists who all apply for these grants through various schemes.

So one of those producers TVO in Ontario dolled out some cash to the film maker. Who produced this film, which may or may not be pro-Russian. Taking that and turning into "Canadian PM cuts federal cheque to support Russia" is exactly what I am talking about as a problem on this thread. And it is getting worse not better. In fact, doing what you, and Kraft, and others, are doing is essentially an form of information operation in its own right.

The problem as I see it, is that there is actually very little new information on this war right now. So people are making up their own from the bits we see. People are promoting positions, some honorable others less so. But we are very light on facts. Worse, some of you are attacking anyone who points this out.

Yesterday, two posters made a run at me because I offered an opinion that the recent move by the US to authorize deep strikes into Russia was a deliberate escalation, in line with the larger US strategy to date. The yips and howls that I was pulling this out of thin air filled the halls. When in fact, 1) I have said this exact same statement repeatedly, with citations, on this same thread going back hundreds of pages, and 2) then provided more citation and mainstream assessment to back up the opinion. So, yes, I offered an opinion. It was informed and supported. Readers can take it or leave it.

In this case, you have offered an assessment of a situation. I disagree with some of it, and have posted citations to back that up. Is it possible that the bureaucratic morass of Canadian government funding screwed up, absolutely. Is this a deliberate supporting of Russia in this war by Canada? No, that is an outright falsehood and needs to be called out.  

Edited Friday at 07:57 PM by The_Capt

[Offshoot]

6 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Does this film somehow assist Russia in achieving its military goals. Based on what I can find the answer is, "no". It is an anti-war film that portrays the disillusionment and horrid conditions Russian troops are living under...that is not going to help Putin in anyway shape or form. Just because it does not portray every Russian soldier as an inhuman monster does not play into Russia's hand.

The main charge seems to be that the film attempts to portray Russian soldiers as victims despite the fact they are present in another sovereign country with the full intent to kill the citizens of that country. Of course, they repeat Russian lines that Ukraine is really Russia.

[alison]

42 minutes ago, Eug85 said:

You misunderstood my post. Maybe it's because of my poor English. I didn't say that you should or shouldn't believe Russian or Ukrainian propaganda - that's everyone's personal business. My message was not to finance Russian propaganda, helping the Russians in their war of conquest. After all, propaganda is a means to achieve military goals. It's quite strange that Canada, as a NATO member, is helping Russia - a state that has repeatedly threatened NATO.

I've mostly refrained from commenting on this topic because I no longer live or pay taxes in Canada, but all this pile-on is making me feel for our German friends who seem destined to face ritual bashings on this thread for not rerouting their entire budget to the AFU.

My personal feeling is that this movie is fairly sus. The filmmaker has a bit of a shady background. The topic is at best insensitive, especially given Canada's significant ethnic Ukrainian population (already 3.5% in the 2021 Census).

However.

The Canadian federal budget is getting up in the range of 500 billion dollars. This movie received something like 350 thousand dollars of funding for the arts, coming from a pool of money that both the federal government and Canadian cable TV providers pay into, some of which is granted to regional public broadcasters. One of those public broadcasters decided to invest in this movie, presumably after receiving a grant application, and perhaps not doing all of its due diligence. Or perhaps they did do their due diligence and decided nevertheless that this documentary might still provide something of interest to the kinds of viewers who tune in to watch Antiques Roadshow and Michael Palin and the Ontario provincial assembly question period. 

Ironically due to the Streisand effect this movie is now getting way more press than it probably ever would have if it had just done the festival circuit and then disappeared onto public access TV.

For sure, this is a political blunder - and it has since been acknowledged as such by all involved - but let's not pretend like a drop in the bucket of the Canadian federal budget going to a propaganda flick for the bad guys is anywhere near as problematic as literal billionaire media moguls pumping out the same nonsense and worse on major commercial networks, cable news channels and social media. It's important to keep things in perspective.

[Eug85]

26 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

But in this particular case we have not actually established that the film was indeed Russian propaganda (without seeing it), or was it honest freedom of expression.

In your previous post, you directly stated that this film is propaganda, as are the two Ukrainian films (as I understand that you have watched these Ukrainian films if you make such conclusions). And in the next post you state that we cannot establish that the Russian film is propaganda. All this seems very strange to me.

As for the attacks on forum participants, I have been watching for several weeks now how you attack various forum participants who disagree with your opinion, insulting them in the process.

Edited Friday at 12:24 PM by Eug85

[Eug85]

34 minutes ago, alison said:

I've mostly refrained from commenting on this topic because I no longer live or pay taxes in Canada, but all this pile-on is making me feel for our German friends who seem destined to face ritual bashings on this thread for not rerouting their entire budget to the AFU.

My personal feeling is that this movie is fairly sus. The filmmaker has a bit of a shady background. The topic is at best insensitive, especially given Canada's significant ethnic Ukrainian population (already 3.5% in the 2021 Census).

However.

The Canadian federal budget is getting up in the range of 500 billion dollars. This movie received something like 350 thousand dollars of funding for the arts, coming from a pool of money that both the federal government and Canadian cable TV providers pay into, some of which is granted to regional public broadcasters. One of those public broadcasters decided to invest in this movie, presumably after receiving a grant application, and perhaps not doing all of its due diligence. Or perhaps they did do their due diligence and decided nevertheless that this documentary might still provide something of interest to the kinds of viewers who tune in to watch Antiques Roadshow and Michael Palin and the Ontario provincial assembly question period. 

Ironically due to the Streisand effect this movie is now getting way more press than it probably ever would have if it had just done the festival circuit and then disappeared onto public access TV.

For sure, this is a political blunder - and it has since been acknowledged as such by all involved - but let's not pretend like a drop in the bucket of the Canadian federal budget going to a propaganda flick for the bad guys is anywhere near as problematic as literal billionaire media moguls pumping out the same nonsense and worse on major commercial networks, cable news channels and social media. It's important to keep things in perspective.

I never said that Germany should donate its entire budget to Ukraine, don't manipulate my words.

As for the amount spent on Russian propaganda, why did you decide that several hundred thousand dollars spent on helping Russia in the war against Ukraine is too little? Personally, I think that even a few dollars to help Russia is too much.