How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Ales Dvorak]

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Act how?  Apologize for what?  “I am sorry I was not briefed?”  “As CDS I don’t do full background checks on everyone who visits Parliament?”  I call BS on that.  

We are becoming so apologist that those apologies do not mean anything anymore.  One can apologize for sins of commission or omission, yet none of these really apply in this situation.  The CDS was called to a special session of Parliament for the President of Ukraine.  Some nitwit 20-something staffer in the Parliamentary Protocol office didn’t double check on another nitwit 20-something staffer in the Speakers office - neither of whom have looked at WW2 history since high-school (and even then all we ever talk about is freakin Normandy).  The CDS stood up to honour a Ukrainian WW2 veteran, with everyone else, and then wound up wearing it when it comes to light that a 15 second Google search could have headed this whole thing off.

He has likely been ordered not to say or do anything while the Prime Minister try’s to stop the bleeding - a Liberal appointed CDS apologizing for “something” is essentially admitting culpability that Gen E is not entitled to and would be highly politicized.  So I am really not sure what the “Act” looks like in this situation.  I guess he could re-iterate that we in the CAF really don’t like Nazis?  Please do not apply for recruitment?  Nazis were really bad and WW2 was pretty big and complicated so please use Google and stop relying on Saving Private Ryan as your sole datapoint?

You're right.

 

p.s.

I was more in " errare humanum est " frame.

[kraze]

Regarding Hunka.
There's a reason Nuremberg trials never accused that specific division of any single warcrime. And russians, who were a part of it, tried. Oh they did. Don't you doubt it for a second. And then suddenly a Canadian citizen of 69 years gets to be a war criminal because current year.

Because to a westerner the whole "SS" thing when mentioned means 100% Hitler worshipping fanatics, yet Red Army is viewed as liberators despite ending up raping through half of Europe. Naturally russians exploit this lack of knowledge to no end.

Edited September 30, 2023 by kraze

[Seedorf81]

3 hours ago, Ales Dvorak said:

I know, it will looks like this.

Or could it be..

"Dislocated shoulder unsuspectedly turned fanatical Nazi into post-war resistance-hero".

[Battlefront.com]

45 minutes ago, kraze said:

Regarding Hunka.
There's a reason Nuremberg trials never accused that specific division of any single warcrime. And russians, who were a part of it, tried. Oh they did. Don't you doubt it for a second. And then suddenly a Canadian citizen of 69 years gets to be a war criminal because current year.

Because to a westerner the whole "SS" thing when mentioned means 100% Hitler worshipping fanatics, yet Red Army is viewed as liberators despite ending up raping through half of Europe. Naturally russians exploit this lack of knowledge to no end.

Most people are ignorant of history, even their own.  It isn't a Western thing.  History is also distorted to suit the politics and culture of the present.  That also isn't a Western thing, as evidenced recently by book bannings and overtly politically established teaching standards in the US amply demonstrates.

So if you want to scream hypocrisy, that's fine.  But just remember it applies to your country/culture as much as it does everybody else's.

As an American who does not fall into the category of thinking "history is boring", I can say that it is commonly understood that the West "said one thing and did another" when it came to punishing Nazis for their crimes.  Whether it be using Nazi science and technology solidly connected to warcrimes and genocide, creating the myth of "good Nazi" to excuse working with war criminals, or understanding the role of the Catholic Church in providing escape routes for the worst of the worst of the Nazis... the information is out there for anybody who cares to look at it.

That said, you are wrong that West views the Red Army as "liberators".  The entire Cold War was spent vilifying the Red Army specifically and the Soviet Union generally.  Only the hard right and hard left whackos push back on that narrative, mostly by factually flawed "whataboutisms" and false equivocation of real events.  The closer someone in the West lives to the old Soviet sphere, the stronger the roots of disinformation.  However, what you are talking about is mostly a phenomena of the areas administered by the Soviet Union (internal and external), which makes sense since the last thing the Soviet Union would teach is "the Red Army was monstrous".

A correct and academic view of the war clearly shows that the Nazi regime raised and recruited a large number of non-German units primarily for maintaining order within its borders of the Reich through terror, murder, rape, plunder, and the whole list of horrible things Humans do to one another.  Ukrainians were also recruited explicitly for roles in the Final Solution, in particular camp guards.  Eventually those units were incorporated into the Waffen SS and the interplay between guards, "police", and soldiers was blurred even more.  The same was true for the Germanic SS units, especially the Totenkopf Division.

So, bottom line, is that not all Ukrainians who were part of the Waffen SS committed the worst sort of war crimes, but the units themselves did.  Therefore, they should not be celebrated as freedom fighters, but instead correctly labeled instruments of terror.  Even the cooks and the clerks had their role to play in those crimes, just as the cooks and clerks in the Russian army today do.

Steve

[dan/california]

4 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Sure, if you actually have enough information to make the decision.  If this whole thing had gone another way - like the guy had simply served in a non-SS unit, then the CDS would have been snubbing a 98 year old vet, which would have blown up another way.  Given that he was not briefed on who the guy was - no one was, it is unfair to hold him responsible.  Now if evidence comes up that changes that well then you can feel free to splash this photo all you like.

But of course let’s compare the situation of the CDS in Canadian Parliament to a guy who was married to a Jewish woman in Nazi Germany in 1936: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser

 

 

4 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Act how?  Apologize for what?  “I am sorry I was not briefed?”  “As CDS I don’t do full background checks on everyone who visits Parliament?”  I call BS on that.  

We are becoming so apologist that those apologies do not mean anything anymore.  One can apologize for sins of commission or omission, yet none of these really apply in this situation.  The CDS was called to a special session of Parliament for the President of Ukraine.  Some nitwit 20-something staffer in the Parliamentary Protocol office didn’t double check on another nitwit 20-something staffer in the Speakers office - neither of whom have looked at WW2 history since high-school (and even then all we ever talk about is freakin Normandy).  The CDS stood up to honour a Ukrainian WW2 veteran, with everyone else, and then wound up wearing it when it comes to light that a 15 second Google search could have headed this whole thing off.

He has likely been ordered not to say or do anything while the Prime Minister try’s to stop the bleeding - a Liberal appointed CDS apologizing for “something” is essentially admitting culpability that Gen E is not entitled to and would be highly politicized.  So I am really not sure what the “Act” looks like in this situation.  I guess he could re-iterate that we in the CAF really don’t like Nazis?  Please do not apply for recruitment?  Nazis were really bad and WW2 was pretty big and complicated so please use Google and stop relying on Saving Private Ryan as your sole datapoint?

Landmesser needed a ticket to pretty much anywhere else, which he and his family sadly didn't get in time. The CDS just needs the news cycle to move on. Given the amount stupidity committed daily, it surely will.

I do hope the actual guilty parties in the various offices of the Canadian Parliament enjoy a scintillating stretch of employment as parking lot attendants or or similar. Hopefully the demise of their careers will become sufficiently legendary whole generations of staffers will pay a bit more attention.

[Haiduk]

"White wolf" unit of SBU Alfa special forces has struck next AD radar on Russian territory. If in previous time they hit "Kasta" radar, now they hit 55Zh6U "Nebo-U" 3-coordinate meter range radar complex of air defense forces. Antenna, equipment cabin and radar remote control vehicle were struck by drones

"Nebo-U" was adopted in 1995 and first serial radars went to service in 2011. Now this radar is on armament of AD units of Western and Central military districts. Radar allows to detect "fighter" type target on altitude 500 m - up to 70 km and on altitude 20 000 m on 400 km in 360 degrees zone 

  

Edited September 30, 2023 by Haiduk

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

Eventually those units were incorporated into the Waffen SS and the interplay between guards, "police", and soldiers was blurred even more. 

If you mean Ivan Demianiuk is not proper example, because he was former POW of Red Army, who defected to German service like a "hivi". Many of "hivi" made own choice not because ideological reason, but only by a will to survive. But all who enlisted into division in first draft were volunteers and went there not because they were ready to do everything to save own life.

Those, who negotiated with Germans about forning of Baltic and Ukrainian Waffen SS divisions, first of all demanded that these units have to be combat only, not guard - to fight with Bolsheviks. Of course they also were used in counter-partisan actions too (mostly organized by pro-commi forces in Slovakia and Yugoslavia) 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Haiduk

[dan/california]

The extremely unpleasant problem of being stuck with no good choices to speak of is not just a historical phenomenon, unfortunately.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by dan/california

[dan/california]

Dmitri is back on it after a little break.

[dan/california]

 

[Haiduk]

Second Russian attack with new long range drone on UKR airfields, which took place on 25th of September. If in previous time they damaged MiG-29 on Dolzhanske airfield near Kryvyi Rih, that now their attack of Kulbakine airfield near Mykolaiv was more resultative - MiG-29 was combletely burned down. 

Alas, two airfield technecians of 204th tactical aviation brigade (airbase Lutsk), maintaining the jet were killed in this strike, several were wounded. 

It's currently unknown what a model of this kamikadze drone was used in these attacks. Both airfields were located within 60-70 km from frontline. In September Russian AeroScan company (former ZALA Group), who developed Lancet, presented new generation of such class of drones with name "Italmas" ("flower" in Udmurtain language - the company located in Izhevsk city, administrative center of Udmurtia Republic). This drone as claimed developers can have a range up to 200 km, with real-time control like Lancet via optical-electronic station (though, unknown where it can be mounted on shown examples)

And again about sanctions...

 

[Vet 0369]

2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Most people are ignorant of history, even their own.  It isn't a Western thing.  History is also distorted to suit the politics and culture of the present.  That also isn't a Western thing, as evidenced recently by book bannings and overtly politically established teaching standards in the US amply demonstrates.

So if you want to scream hypocrisy, that's fine.  But just remember it applies to your country/culture as much as it does everybody else's.

As an American who does not fall into the category of thinking "history is boring", I can say that it is commonly understood that the West "said one thing and did another" when it came to punishing Nazis for their crimes.  Whether it be using Nazi science and technology solidly connected to warcrimes and genocide, creating the myth of "good Nazi" to excuse working with war criminals, or understanding the role of the Catholic Church in providing escape routes for the worst of the worst of the Nazis... the information is out there for anybody who cares to look at it.

That said, you are wrong that West views the Red Army as "liberators".  The entire Cold War was spent vilifying the Red Army specifically and the Soviet Union generally.  Only the hard right and hard left whackos push back on that narrative, mostly by factually flawed "whataboutisms" and false equivocation of real events.  The closer someone in the West lives to the old Soviet sphere, the stronger the roots of disinformation.  However, what you are talking about is mostly a phenomena of the areas administered by the Soviet Union (internal and external), which makes sense since the last thing the Soviet Union would teach is "the Red Army was monstrous".

A correct and academic view of the war clearly shows that the Nazi regime raised and recruited a large number of non-German units primarily for maintaining order within its borders of the Reich through terror, murder, rape, plunder, and the whole list of horrible things Humans do to one another.  Ukrainians were also recruited explicitly for roles in the Final Solution, in particular camp guards.  Eventually those units were incorporated into the Waffen SS and the interplay between guards, "police", and soldiers was blurred even more.  The same was true for the Germanic SS units, especially the Totenkopf Division.

So, bottom line, is that not all Ukrainians who were part of the Waffen SS committed the worst sort of war crimes, but the units themselves did.  Therefore, they should not be celebrated as freedom fighters, but instead correctly labeled instruments of terror.  Even the cooks and the clerks had their role to play in those crimes, just as the cooks and clerks in the Russian army today do.

Steve

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it!”

[dan/california]

8 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Second Russian attack with new long range drone on UKR airfields, which took place on 25th of September. If in previous time they damaged MiG-29 on Dolzhanske airfield near Kryvyi Rih, that now their attack of Kulbakine airfield near Mykolaiv was more resultative - MiG-29 was combletely burned down. 

Alas, two airfield technecians of 204th tactical aviation brigade (airbase Lutsk), maintaining the jet were killed in this strike, several were wounded. 

It's currently unknown what a model of this kamikadze drone was used in these attacks. Both airfields were located within 60-70 km from frontline. In September Russian AeroScan company (former ZALA Group), who developed Lancet, presented new generation of such class of drones with name "Italmas" ("flower" in Udmurtain language - the company located in Izhevsk city, administrative center of Udmurtia Republic). This drone as claimed developers can have a range up to 200 km, with real-time control like Lancet via optical-electronic station (though, unknown where it can be mounted on shown examples)

And again about sanctions...

 

https://defence-blog.com/us-military-receives-laser-air-defense-weapons/

These Stryker mounted lasers need to be Ukraine, needed to be there months ago. If they work it is a huge plus, if they don't, well at least we know. The drone systems they need to engage are not going get any less dangerous next year, or the year after that. The Chinese stealing the plans through new model hacking, or old fashioned spy work, is an infinitely greater risk too any secret technology than deploying them to Ukraine.

Edited September 30, 2023 by dan/california

[Haiduk]

21 minutes ago, dan/california said:

https://defence-blog.com/us-military-receives-laser-air-defense-weapons/

These Stryker mounted lasers need to be Ukraine, needed to be there months ago. If they work it is a huge plus, if they don't, well at least we know. The drone systems they need to engage are not going get any less dangerous next year, or the year after that. The Chinese stealing the plans through new model hacking, or old fashioned spy work, is an infinitely greater risk too any secret technology than deploying them to Ukraine.

Better to have some fat missile or horde of drones with 1500 m of range to destroy this factory and design bureau. Izhevsk is in about 1380 km from closest point of Ukraine.  

[dan/california]

22 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Better to have some fat missile or horde of drones with 1500 m of range to destroy this factory and design bureau. Izhevsk is in about 1380 km from closest point of Ukraine.  

These are not mutually exclusive...

[NamEndedAllen]

What will the Senate do with this?
The House bill attracted strong bipartisan support and includes more domestic disaster relief aid but no money for Ukraine. It must pass the Senate before midnight to avert a shutdown.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/09/30/us/government-shutdown-news

[dan/california]

2 minutes ago, NamEndedAllen said:

What will the Senate do with this?
The House bill attracted strong bipartisan support and includes more domestic disaster relief aid but no money for Ukraine. It must pass the Senate before midnight to avert a shutdown.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/09/30/us/government-shutdown-news

Not good...

 

[cesmonkey]

2 minutes ago, NamEndedAllen said:

What will the Senate do with this?
The House bill attracted strong bipartisan support and includes more domestic disaster relief aid but no money for Ukraine. It must pass the Senate before midnight to avert a shutdown.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/09/30/us/government-shutdown-news

Yeah. The Senate will pass it.

Maybe, since the House Republican leadership was willing to break from the MAGA Republicans in order to avert a shutdown and opt for a bipartisan continuing resolution bill, a similar bipartisan measure to renew funding for Ukraine has a chance in the near future.

[Kinophile]

 

[Letter from Prague]

So the hypothesis that Ukraine will get US support at least until 2024 elections seems to have been disproven.

[dan/california]

25 minutes ago, Letter from Prague said:

So the hypothesis that Ukraine will get US support at least until 2024 elections seems to have been disproven.

This is a setback not a disaster. This is 45 day short term deal, Biden can squeeze out a months worth of support from existing authorities fairly easily. It may take a week to see where things are actually at.

[chrisl]

2 hours ago, dan/california said:

https://defence-blog.com/us-military-receives-laser-air-defense-weapons/

These Stryker mounted lasers need to be Ukraine, needed to be there months ago. If they work it is a huge plus, if they don't, well at least we know. The drone systems they need to engage are not going get any less dangerous next year, or the year after that. The Chinese stealing the plans through new model hacking, or old fashioned spy work, is an infinitely greater risk too any secret technology than deploying them to Ukraine.

It's the kind of thing that we'd never hear about being there, at least not for another decade or so, but could be used for city defense where there would be low risk of capture.  Make sure there are a lot of small arms in the neighborhood that can take credit for shooting down all the drones and missiles.

[NamEndedAllen]

2 hours ago, cesmonkey said:

the House Republican leadership was willing to break from the MAGA Republicans in order to avert a shutdown

Actually , this was the MAGA last ditch demand. Cut aid for Ukraine, thus providing aid and comfort for Russia. It’s a terrible political stunt forcing those who support the fight for freedom and democracy to PUBLICLY abandon their support, on the record. In order not to be the subject of a huge wave of advertisements screaming that Democrats chose Ukraine over America. 
 

However, cesmonkey is correct. And the Pentagon has already stated that it will protect ongoing *military* aid to Ukraine in the event of a shut down. So for the moment, this despicable stunt plays more to the right wing *extremist* minority of voters and to Putin favor. However, it is only good for 45 days. Which is practically an eye blink. Then we go through these self-inflicted undermining divisive comfort and aid to Russia circuses (and China - who sees Ukraine=Taiwan). Please note: I say comfort and aid to Russia because it is, whether or not the MAGA Congressional reps intend that or not. I suspect not all of them mean for that to happen. Or they just don’t care. Either way, just as we watch carefully for dissent and signs of exploitable cracks in Russia (and China ) - so definitely do they.

[dan/california]

6 minutes ago, NamEndedAllen said:

Actually , this was the MAGA last ditch demand. Cut aid for Ukraine, thus providing aid and comfort for Russia. It’s a terrible political stunt forcing those who support the fight for freedom and democracy to PUBLICLY abandon their support, on the record. In order not to be the subject of a huge wave of advertisements screaming that Democrats chose Ukraine over America. 
 

However, cesmonkey is correct. And the Pentagon has already stated that it will protect ongoing *military* aid to Ukraine in the event of a shut down. So for the moment, this despicable stunt plays more to the right wing *extremist* minority of voters and to Putin favor. However, it is only good for 45 days. Which is practically an eye blink. Then we go through these self-inflicted undermining divisive comfort and aid to Russia circuses (and China - who sees Ukraine=Taiwan). Please note: I say comfort and aid to Russia because it is, whether or not the MAGA Congressional reps intend that or not. I suspect not all of them mean for that to happen. Or they just don’t care. Either way, just as we watch carefully for dissent and signs of exploitable cracks in Russia (and China ) - so definitely do they.

Currently blowing up all of my other social media raising H^$# about this.

Edited September 30, 2023 by dan/california

[TheVulture]

UK Defence Minister Grant Shapps is discussing plans to send UK troops to set up training bases in Western Ukraine, rather than having Ukrainian troops come to the UK, and discussed with Zelensky how the Royal Navy could "play a role in defending commercial vessels from Russian attacks in the Black Sea"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/