How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Bulletpoint]

Jailed for spreading "fake news" AKA telling the truth.

 

Russian journalist Maria Ponomarenko has been jailed for six years for posting on social media about a deadly attack by Russian warplanes on a theatre in Ukraine.

The court in Barnaul in Siberia found her guilty of spreading "fake news", under laws introduced aimed at stifling dissent about the invasion of Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64647267

 

[Lethaface]

14 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Finland doesn't disclose the content of its aid, I am quite sure Finland is participating in limited numbers at the moment.

Additional numbers seem to be dependent on the ratification of Finnish NATO membership. This has been quite clearly but somewhat indirectly stated by officials and the president. The line is because of Finland's location and non-NATO membership military support is constrained.

The fact that the big south, west, and central European nations are not giving away any significant percentages of their fleets or even offering to compensate tanks given by others is seen as distasteful. Russia's neighbors and so the ones that are most at threat are leading in donations, this is not seen as desirable in Finland. The load sharing should be reversed from our point of view.

If I would make the decisions half of the Finnish Leo fleet(all the 2A6 variants) and the BMP-2s would be already heading to UKR.

It was more tongue-in-cheek. I understand Finish position, but the same arguments against other countries could be made there (Russia not being a threat at the moment, NATO already guaranteeing security, etc). After all Finland bought all of those 2A6 after the cold war had ended. 

But I don't think the debate is fruitful; actually I think not disclosing contents of aid is probably the wiser / better.

The political games surrounding and the hype made around it was my issue with the thing. Germany has now adapted to the game and implementing 'what goes around comes around' position. Fair enough imo. Especially if it puts pressure on more 2A6 going ;-).

If I were the Dutch PM I would at least not have said I could send tanks I don't have. I find it ironic that I could predict we couldn't send tanks because we don't have any (well we lease some), but our PM first said we could buy them and send them only then to have to threat back on that statement. 'The political will to send them is there, but...'.

Anyway I'm not making the decisions so I don't know what I would have done. Probably also in the politics games because that's the game that's being played, unfortunately.

[Butschi]

1 minute ago, Astrophel said:

Without capitalism we would not have personal computers, iPhones, the internet, or many many things that are useful for society.  I met and worked with a lot of the people involved in creating these worlds and none of them did it for the money, even though several have become rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

You are contradicting yourself. I share your experience and I know a lot of people, who are not in it for getting rich and would be perfectly happy to continue the job as long as their needs are somehow cared for. You don't need capitalism for that.

 

4 minutes ago, Astrophel said:

The thing about capitalism is that bad ideas die and good ideas continue to get funding.

Wrong. There are plenty of good ideas out there that don't get funding because of just bad luck or, what's worse, seeing those good ideas come to fruition would hurt current business models.

On the other hand there are lots and lots b of really bad ideas that get funding.

6 minutes ago, Astrophel said:

Now perhaps we can get back to the war in ukraine.  If anything the flexibility and depth of the capitalist system is making a good showing against the dogmatic intransigence of the autocrat in moscow in which failure is rewarded not by bankruptcy but by doubling down.

The failure of capitalism to improve the everyday life of Russians is, in parts at least, to blame for having Putin as autocrat in the first place, though.

[Lethaface]

11 minutes ago, Letter from Prague said:

I'm thinking Finland is one of the few countries that might actually need those tanks in place.

Against what? The missing T-14 Armata's? Just like the Spanish need their 2A6E for defending against Marocco, etc. But I digress from the subject.

I never really liked Tetris that much but it I sure remember it from my lower school years. 

[keas66]

8 minutes ago, kraze said:

Good. So you have no problem with all the dehumanization of non-russians (or even just human beings) in their books?

Well ...  I'd kind of disagree that that is an overriding theme in any Russian Novels I have personally read ... but I can imagine  you are not really interested in conflicting opinions on this subject so I'll leave you to your own (de)illusions .

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, Huba said:

This sounds like very good news, especially that only few days have passed since last missile barrage. Is it true? How's the electricity situation for you @Zeleban @Haiduk?

 

Indeed good news. Let's hope that the rumoured (air) offensive stays mostly a rumor. Perhaps one of the most important victories Ukraine can achieve in short term is shutting down most of Russia's terror strike capacity by means of AD. If Russia's missile attacks become trivial, that's a big part of their perceived negotiation power down the drain. And of course, less terror :).

[kraze]

7 minutes ago, keas66 said:

Well ...  I'd kind of disagree that that is an overriding theme in any Russian Novels I have personally read ... but I can imagine  you are not really interested in conflicting opinions on this subject so I'll leave you to your own (de)illusions .

From axing old women to drowning dogs on personal level, from complaining about slavic "traitors" who always betray Mother Russia to depicting people of Caucasus mountains as barbarians on global level - those sure are great, non-overriding examples of humanity that russian culture brings to the world one shell at a time.

But I guess stuff like Bulgakov's White Guard or Pushkin's Poltava must be a product of my imagination or delusions.

Edited February 15, 2023 by kraze

[Zeleban]

25 minutes ago, keas66 said:

Gogol being a favorite .

Do you like how he describes the inhabitants of Ukrainian villages as funny and good-natured fools?

[Lethaface]

14 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Which is paid for by... the currently working generation.

Well I'm not planning on paying AI's a salary.
We have a rather vast pension scheme but it sure is in need of adaptation with regards to the aging issue. With or without AI.

17 minutes ago, Butschi said:

And that is a fallacy, I think. There is actually nothing to back it up apart from the fact that in the past it worked like this. But seriously, what kind of jobs would that be that can't be done by an AI or an AI controlled robot better and cheaper?

But there's also nothing factual backing up the contrary. As someone working in the sector that eliminates other peoples jobs, it is my impression that there is always something else to do now that people don't have to do the jobs which can be done by a system. Just need some imagination. Ethical supervision of AI decision could be a new job. 

22 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Honestly, I very much hope that healthcare will be done by AIs in the future. I have seen so many instances of doctors having no clue and instead of looking into a database it even a book for that matter just gave a wrong diagnosis or just none at all and sent the patient on to the next doctor. I seriously fail to see how an AI could do worse.

 I don't have such a bad experience with doctors. But yes people in general are often clueless (at times), also in their supposed field of expertise.

But sure AI can help with diagnosis, etc. But the decision whether to give someone a treatment or not is more of a human thing imo. 'This specimen hasn't optimally cared for it's mortal vessel and is deemed not worthy of receiving the proposed operation. To remain within our critical performance indicator threshold the specimen will be recycled'.

[panzermartin]

32 minutes ago, Astrophel said:

Without capitalism we would not have personal computers, iPhones

The truth is it took a little Chinese "communism" too to make these affordable (?) to the masses. Capitalism and consumerism has also polluted environment, food, cultures, health systems, politics, polluted arts and sports and its by no means a panacea for the future of humans.  We can do better and I would trade a more human center system than fancy ten camera iPhones. 

And ultimately I think capitalism is causing the downfall of West and it's ideals rooted in the Athenian democracy and classical era. 

Remember West and US particularly created its big and possibly deadly rival in the form of China with the uncontrolled outsourcing and tech export because "capital has no country". 

Edited February 15, 2023 by panzermartin

[Lethaface]

15 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

Do you like how he describes the inhabitants of Ukrainian villages as funny and good-natured fools?

I've read harsher things in non-Russian literature about probably all the peoples in the world.

Anyway I think your point on the previous page was sound: Russia has somehow not evolved from the 1800 like some of the other countries actually did. Unfortunately Russia isn't alone in that regard.

[keas66]

13 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

Do you like how he describes the inhabitants of Ukrainian villages as funny and good-natured fools?

Yeah - so as much as I support  Ukraine's fight against the Russian invaders - I don't personally see a need to target all Russian Arts/Science/People as  Villains incarnate . You'll just have to accept that  a lot of people are not going to see the need to swallow this particular thread of Ukrainian thinking  . Its a little too extreme -  I'd advise you to dial it back a bit .

[Probus]

As an aside, I started a new related thread that y'all might fun to add to:

 

[Zeleban]

13 minutes ago, keas66 said:

Yeah - so as much as I support  Ukraine's fight against the Russian invaders - I don't personally see a need to target all Russian Arts/Science/People as  Villains incarnate . You'll just have to accept that  a lot of people are not going to see the need to swallow this particular thread of Ukrainian thinking  . Its a little too extreme -  I'd advise you to dial it back a bit .

In what sense "dial it back a bit"? Should I show more respect for a culture that has oppressed and humiliated my ancestors for centuries? I studied Russian literature for 10 years at school with all those Pushkins and Dostoyevskys. We were literally forced to memorize their poems. For many years I wondered why the hell I need all this rubbish. Until 2014 finally arrived. Then I understood everything. Russian literature is the same weapon of oppression of the peoples included in it as propaganda, or the atomic bomb. So in what sense should I slow down?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Zeleban

[Ales Dvorak]

12 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

Russian literature is the same weapon of oppression of the peoples included in it as propaganda, or the atomic bomb. 

https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/9766/artykul/3117882,ukraine-purges-libraries-of-19-million-sovietera-books

[kraze]

29 minutes ago, keas66 said:

I don't personally see a need to target all Russian Arts/Science/People as  Villains incarnate .

What if they are?

If Lermontov makes fun of rape victims of russian troops he was a part of in his poem Ulansha, where he describes the gangraping process in great detail with much appreciation - what that makes him? A Man of Culture?

And we had 5 streets bearing his name in Kyiv alone thanks to other "Art People" that came here during occupation. Clearly we need to dial it all back a bit and learn to appreciate russians gang raping our women right now as per Lermontov.

Edited February 15, 2023 by kraze

[Zeleban]

2 minutes ago, Ales Dvorak said:

https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/9766/artykul/3117882,ukraine-purges-libraries-of-19-million-sovietera-books

 

That's it. This is a very belated move from our authorities. This was worth doing back in 1992. Then in 2014 the Russians would have had far fewer opportunities for annexation

[keas66]

6 minutes ago, kraze said:

What if they are?

If Lermontov makes fun of rape victims of russian troops he was a part of in his poem Ulansha, where he describes the gangraping process in great detail with much appreciation - what that makes him? A Man of Culture?

And we had 5 streets bearing his name in Kyiv alone thanks to other "Art People" that came here during occupation. Clearly we need to dial it all back a bit and learn to appreciate russians gang raping our women right now as per Lermontov.

Guys - look you probably have  plenty of examples  of bad things in past literature - Its the nature of  things . I enjoy  Literature and Non fiction from times when   people of color  were clearly being  treated as less than human in literature of the times . Do I think such Books need to be purged from  our Libraries ? Well - personally no  . And I'll happily keep what Russian Literature I have as well - safe on my bookshelves . When you start targeting the Literature /Books of a Culture for reasons of the moment  -  you are heading down a troublesome path that I have no interest in going down .

[Beleg85]

13 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

That's it. This is a very belated move from our authorities. This was worth doing back in 1992. Then in 2014 the Russians would have had far fewer opportunities for annexation

Worth to add most of these are not some fancy Russian literature, but Lenininst-Marxist crap, announcents of some local comitees etc. People from countires who happily did not experience communist may have hard time to understand how many empty toms  of pure nonsensce these systems produced. I saw one clip early from war when TD guys build entire blockpost from this near Kyiv with a smirky comment of the commander (a lbrarian herself, wielding PKM ) "They were always heavy. At least now they are of some use."

7 minutes ago, keas66 said:

Guys - look you probably have  plenty of examples  of bad things in past literature - Its the nature of  things . I enjoy  Literature and Non fiction from times when   people of color  were clearly being  treated as less than human in literature of the times . Do I think such Books need to be purged from  our Libraries ? Well - personally no  . And I'll happily keep what Russian Literature I have as well - safe on my bookshelves . When you start targeting the Literature /Books of a Culture for reasons of the moment  -  you are heading down a troublesome path that I have no interest in going down .

Yes, of course generlaly agree.

However, we have very interesting process connected to this war- a nation trying to find out its own cultural independence and break cultural imperialistic shackles it was kept for centuries. It may be ugly at times.

Second thing worth of note is Western academics (and readers) may finally take seriously that Russia is an empire of culture, and apply their own sophisticated methods of critique to Kremlin as well. They were very reluctant to do this before. This is positive- weaker have a vocie now.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Beleg85

[chuckdyke]

Churchill speaking in the direction of a bugging device.

"Russians are not human at all, on the scale in nature they rank lower than the Orang Hutan."

 

[panzermartin]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

Churchill speaking in the direction of a bugging device.

"Russians are not human at all, on the scale in nature they rank lower than the Orang Hutan."

 

This only proves the racist inside Churchill. Maybe he was drunk again though. 

[akd]

Well, now cheating in Ukrainian Golf is a thing:

 

[Ales Dvorak]

5 minutes ago, Beleg85 said:

People from countires who happily did not experience communist may have hard time to understand how many empty toms  of pure nonsensce these systems produced.

I'm from ex Yugoslavia, so I have a different view.

[Zeleban]

2 minutes ago, Ales Dvorak said:

I'm from ex Yugoslavia, so I have a different view.

Share with us the works of communist authors useful to society, and also indicate what, from your point of view, is useful in them?

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

This only proves the racist inside Churchill.

Racism was cool in the first half of the twentieth century. Gandhi was described as fakir; US forces were still segregated. 

Australian War Memorial and the Aboriginal War Memorial. Complaining doesn't work.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by chuckdyke