Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 13 hours ago, dan/california said: That is THE question of this war. Why don't they look around declare it a disaster/I mean total victory, and go the bleep home? Against Napoleon things didn't look good for a very long time, but the Russians kept on fighting, and they finally did win. The Winterwar of 1939 didn't go especially good, to use a nice euphemism, but the Russians kept on fighting and they won eventually. And well, the summer of 1941 was way, way, WAY worse for the Russian Army than anything else, but they kept on fighting (against any logic or sensible reason), and they won in 1945. So their history teaches them: how bad it is, even unimaginably bad, in the end we can win. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraze Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 13 hours ago, dan/california said: That is THE question of this war. Why don't they look around declare it a disaster/I mean total victory, and go the bleep home? You don't see an answer because you are trying to understand people from 14th century by thinking they are people from 21st century. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Boy, this thread is racing recently, can't keep up, so that explains the "late" reaction. I'm not the only one who struggles, I suppose, with keeping up?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said: Against Napoleon things didn't look good for a very long time, but the Russians kept on fighting, and they finally did win. The Winterwar of 1939 didn't go especially good, to use a nice euphemism, but the Russians kept on fighting and they won eventually. And well, the summer of 1941 was way, way, WAY worse for the Russian Army than anything else, but they kept on fighting (against any logic or sensible reason), and they won in 1945. So their history teaches them: how bad it is, even unimaginably bad, in the end we can win. Russia, the Ukraine, Kazakhstan and all the other Soviet republics beat Germany on the Eastern Front with Lend and Lease from the west. By itself Russia achieved zilch 0.000000000 nothing. Their leader was not even Russian but Georgian. Edited February 9, 2023 by chuckdyke 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraft Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) Unicorn hunt successfull: BMP-Terminator terminated. Near Kreminna. According to a quick google search Russia owns ~ 10 of these in total, although Ive never seen more than 3 in Ukraine but they appear quite capable. Some losses from Vuhledar: Edited February 9, 2023 by Kraft 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: Russia, the Ukraine, Kazakhstan and all the other Soviet republics beat Germany on the Eastern Front with Lend and Lease from the west. By itself Russia achieved zilch 0.000000000 nothing. Their leader was not even Russian but Georgian. To say they achieved "nothing", is historically inaccurate. And do you think that the Russians think that? It was about their mindset on why not giving up, so I do not see the relevance of your post, TBH. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Seedorf81 said: To say they achieved "nothing", is historically inaccurate. And do you think that the Russians think that? It was about their mindset on why not giving up, so I do not see the relevance of your post, TBH. It is like saying Great Britain won WW2. Russia was just one republic of the USSR aka the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was not Russia. If you read my statement, I said by itself I quoted Russia as one of the contributors. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said: It was about their mindset on why not giving up, so I do not see the relevance of your post, TBH. Not giving up 130000 primary Russians fought on the German side. Novgorod was according one veteran I knew one heck of a friendly city among a few others. You strike me definitely as pro putin in your post. Giving credit when it is not due. Russian Liberation Army - Wikipedia 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) I think you guys are using Russia and Russians two different ways. One very literal, the other general and encompassing. Might be more of a language/usage issue than an actual disagreement? Dave Edited February 9, 2023 by Ultradave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeleban Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I advise you to remember why the Russians invaded Ukraine? One of their main postulates was "No Ukraine exists. Ukrainians are just Russians who have been fooled by Europeans." This is so that you understand who Russians consider Ukrainians to be 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ultradave said: One very literal, A Russian is an individual who calls himself Russian and speaks Russian as his mother tongue. Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Moldavians, Georgians, Bessarabia etc etc didn't call themselves Russian. The moment they could declare independence they did exactly that. Compare it with Great Britain, Scotch and Welsh will never call themselves English. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, Zeleban said: I advise you to remember why the Russians invaded Ukraine? One of their main postulates was "No Ukraine exists. Ukrainians are just Russians who have been fooled by Europeans." This is so that you understand who Russians consider Ukrainians to be Like the Germans called the Dutch Germanics too. It is up to the people who live in the Ukraine to choose their destiny. putin has just been implicated of the murder of around 300 of my ex country men this is just not somebody Europe can sign a peace treaty with. He belongs in an asylum with a straitjacket. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 12 minutes ago, Ultradave said: I think you guys are using Russia and Russians two different ways. One very literal, the other general and encompassing. Might be more of a language/usage issue than an actual disagreement? Dave That is probably part of it, thank you, Dave. With "Russians", I meant that as in The Russian Empire (Napoleanic times) and The Sowjet Union in general. I have no idea how many people under those names really felt part of that, or only part of their region/ethnicity/culture, or maybe a little bit or both, perhaps? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 36 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: Not giving up 130000 primary Russians fought on the German side. Novgorod was according one veteran I knew one heck of a friendly city among a few others. You strike me definitely as pro putin in your post. Giving credit when it is not due. Russian Liberation Army - Wikipedia How, and why, you come to the conclusion that I am pro-Putin, baffles me, shocks me, and even slightly insults me. I'm stunned, really. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeleban Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said: With "Russians", I meant that as in The Russian Empire (Napoleanic times) So, Finns and Poles are also Russians? I am sure that the Russians think so, it’s just that in the future they will need to be convinced of this, as Ukrainians are now Edited February 9, 2023 by Zeleban 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said: That is probably part of it, thank you, Dave. With "Russians", I meant that as in The Russian Empire (Napoleanic times) and The Sowjet Union in general. I have no idea how many people under those names really felt part of that, or only part of their region/ethnicity/culture, or maybe a little bit or both, perhaps? I for one is to maintain the rage in regards of murdering,civilians children nurses etc people going on holidays. Europe is just too small to accommodate both democracies and dictatorships. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinkin Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Man bites dog remains a story even today: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-mercenaries-halt-prisoner-recruitment-campaign-founder-prigozhin-2023-02-09/?utm_campaign=dfn-ebb&utm_medium=email&utm_source=sailthru&SToverlay=2002c2d9-c344-4bbb-8610-e5794efcfa7d 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said: How, and why, you come to the conclusion that I am pro-Putin, baffles me, shocks me, and even slightly insults me. Lukewarm at best as long as the war doesn't cost too much. I am ashamed of the late contributions of Western Europe. US again donate out of all proportion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 minute ago, chuckdyke said: Lukewarm at best as long as the war doesn't cost too much. I am ashamed of the late contributions of Western Europe. US again donate out of all proportion. What has that to do with me? I still don't see where I showed any "Pro-Putin" thoughts, and I resent being accused of that. I do not take that lightly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Seedorf81 said: With "Russians", I meant that as in The Russian Empire (Napoleanic times) and The Sowjet Union in general. Exactly the language putin likes to hear and uses as an excuse. The age of the right by conquest is not here anymore. That is what he wants to restore. Russia is just a European country nothing more and nothing less and it is time the people don't fall out of windows or get poisoned in any European city for just disagreeing. All the other ex-Soviet Republics have the right to choose their own destiny. As a rule their leaders have super clue in their pants. Once on the seat of power impossible to move. Edited February 9, 2023 by chuckdyke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: Exactly the language putin likes to hear and uses as an excuse. The age of the right by conquest is not here anymore. That is what he wants to restore. Russia is just a European country nothing more and nothing less and it is time the people don't fall out of windows or get poisoned in any European city for just disagreeing. All the other ex-Soviet Republics have the right to choose their own destiny. As a rule their leaders have super clue in their pants. Once on the seat of power impossible to move. Again, that has nothing to do with my posts, as far as I can see. I asked why you accused me of being pro-Putin, and I haven't even seen a hint of an understandable answer/explanation. Although my annoyance about the accusation is actually growing, I'll let it be, because this discussion shouldn't be on this Forum at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Butschi said: Cessation of hostilities is a necessary but not sufficient condition. All NATO members have to ratify the membership application and, as we have learned with Sweden that is not just a formality. Which country do you think would oppose Ukainian membership given that there would be peace? 44 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: Like the Germans called the Dutch Germanics too. It is up to the people who live in the Ukraine to choose their destiny. Yeah, but 'Germanic' <> 'Germany' or 'Germans'. This is a trap the English language leads you in. In German, the same words are 'Germanen' <> 'Deutschland' or 'Deutsche'. However, the Dutch were included in being 'Aryan' so the result would have been the same as the Russian behavior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Seedorf81 said: Again, that has nothing to do with my posts, as far as I can see. I asked why you accused me of being pro-Putin, and I haven't even seen a hint of an understandable answer/explanation. Although my annoyance about the accusation is actually growing, I'll let it be, because this discussion shouldn't be on this Forum at all. I rest my case, you choose to remain ignorant your statement is putin like. By the definition of Russia, the Russia of the Napoleonic era. Poland didn't exist as a result Russia and Prussia divided it. Listening to the Moscow comedy show aka propaganda they want to go back to those days. Soviet Union was Russia it is the most ignorant statement I read in a long time. You feel insulted? Nice at least I got somewhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, poesel said: Dutch Dutch means today the same as it did in 17th century Dutch. That was the meaning of Duytsch as in the national anthem. The dialects actually flow over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butschi Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, chuckdyke said: You strike me definitely as pro putin in your post. This seriously gets ridiculous. So now everyone who isn't firmly in the "Russia sux, lol, Ukraine has already won" camp is pro Putin? Really? 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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