How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[billbindc]

9 hours ago, The_Capt said:

6-8 month for formed units. Fighting formations that can sustain themselves is going to take longer.  Now the UA could take risks, but a well broadcasted screw up with burning western tanks is the last thing anyone wants, except the Russians and their supporters.  These are endgame systems and endgame needs to be timed right.

Of course no one is going to listen to this and in a month there will be cries of “why aren’t the Ukrainians using our tanks?” all over the place.  And of course there is also the uncomfortable possibility that massed manoeuvre forces are just as vulnerable and not able to do what they are supposed to for the Ukrainians as much as they were for the Russians.

Well now that the tank nuts are happy can we get back to actually winning this war?

Capt...you know better. This time next week it will be "Where are the F$&#ING JETS??!!!?!?!??!"

[billbindc]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Finally had a chance to fully read this article. Sounds a lot like the noise the US was making when they were touting the offensive around Kherson when the real attack was around Kharkiv.
 

Is Russia stupid enough to fall for the same trick twice?

Yes.

[The_Capt]

9 minutes ago, billbindc said:

Capt...you know better. This time next week it will be "Where are the F$&#ING JETS??!!!?!?!??!"

I am going with @Lethaface on this one.  We are in the middle of winter and other than some dry humping by the RA there is not much going on.  The reflex is “oh my god, the conflict is frozen!”  So the follow on “send them the entire German military!” to keep things unfrozen makes sense…from a certain point of view.

I suspect - also from that video Steve posted - the weather has not cooperated and it is too muddy for any major UA operations.  It took the UA the entire summer to set up for the Fall Offensive, so if a major winter offensive is off the table it is not because the UA is unable to attack, it is because they do not want to.  Conditions are not right and it is more advantageous right now to let the RA break its hands at places like Bakhmut.

 

[Huba]

30 minutes ago, billbindc said:

Capt...you know better. This time next week it will be "Where are the F$&#ING JETS??!!!?!?!??!"

54 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

I'd keep my expectations low about Dutch F-16s anytime 'soon', it will be at least 'Steve soon' .

But please do bash Hoekstra and Rutte for any reason you can imagine .

Well, hold your horses there, gentlemen, we are not done with the tanks yet. Quite a bit of news is still coming in, like this:

Or this:

Also Biden is to make an official announcement in 2h, presumably to speak on the subject of M1s.
And, PL MoD Błaszczak spoke with US SecDef today, and reportedly we are not yet done with big news for today.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Huba

[hcrof]

11 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

I am going with @Lethaface on this one.  We are in the middle of winter and other than some dry humping by the RA there is not much going on.  The reflex is “oh my god, the conflict is frozen!”  So the follow on “send them the entire German military!” to keep things unfrozen makes sense…from a certain point of view.

I suspect - also from that video Steve posted - the weather has not cooperated and it is too muddy for any major UA operations.  It took the UA the entire summer to set up for the Fall Offensive, so if a major winter offensive is off the table it is not because the UA is unable to attack, it is because they do not want to.  Conditions are not right and it is more advantageous right now to let the RA break its hands at places like Bakhmut.

 

In principle I agree but the Ukrainians reported 700+ Russians killed daily for the last few days (910 today!). Is this just catching up on those big hits of Russian mobiks last week or is something else going on?

[Butschi]

47 minutes ago, billbindc said:

Capt...you know better. This time next week it will be "Where are the F$&#ING JETS??!!!?!?!??!"

The Ukrainians will make sure of it. If only to distract from tanks. Noone talks about IFVs anymore these days...

[Bil Hardenberger]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

One thing I really agree with in that CNN article is about not wasting resources.  If the Ukrainians are going to take an Abrams, stick a T-72 crew in it overnight, round up someone who can act as a loader, and then drive them off into battle one at a time... I say don't send them Abrams.  It won't help them, in fact it will hurt them.  Do it right or don't do it at all.

Steve

100% agree with this. This is most likely the main purpose of the CNN article for sure... and if the Ukrainians actually heed the advice... the Russians will be in a world of hurt when the weather gets warmer and the mud starts to dry out.. say in about three months. 

[FancyCat]

 

[mosuri]

1 hour ago, Lethaface said:

I'd keep my expectations low about Dutch F-16s anytime 'soon', it will be at least 'Steve soon' .

Two weeks, be sure!
(old IL-2 players will get this)

[billbindc]

19 minutes ago, mosuri said:

Two weeks, be sure!
(old IL-2 players will get this)

In the larger picture, it's pretty fascinating to observe the "WTF is taking so long?" vibes.

This conflict is 11 months old. Ukraine lost 36% of the country and regained 18% back in that time. Something like 4 or 5 major land campaigns have been fought out. The air/drone/missile war has gone through multiple iterations. Casualties are something north of 300,000 and vast global political and strategic forces have been transformed. 

I blame social media (or the internet, or video games, or something) I guess.

Edited January 25, 2023 by billbindc

[Huba]

4 minutes ago, mosuri said:

Two weeks, be sure!
(old IL-2 players will get this)

In certain circumstances, twenty minutes is all that is needed:

 

[Fernando]

1 hour ago, Huba said:

Well, hold your horses there, gentlemen, we are not done with the tanks yet. Quite a bit of news is still coming in, like this:

Or this:

 

As already said, 53 are the Spanish Leopard 2A4 in storage that CAN be sent. "El Mundo" says just that. The word "viable" used by "El Mundo" means "feasible" or "doable".

And some of the Leopard sent to Ukraine might not be combat tanks. Some of the Leopard 2A4 were reserved to be converted to support/engineer tanks. That's the reason that most of the hulls in storage are in good conditions, but some of the turrets are not.

The most reliable newspaper regarding this matter is "El País", which have close connections with the current government, so it is usually well informed about what our government does. Again, no number of Spanish leopards to be send is known yet.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230125110752/https://elpais.com/espana/2023-01-25/espana-se-suma-al-plan-europeo-para-entregar-tanques-leopard-a-ucrania.html

[The_Capt]

6 minutes ago, billbindc said:

In the larger picture, it's pretty fascinating to observe the "WTF is taking so long?" vibes.

This conflict is 11 months old. Ukraine lost 36% of the country and regained 18% back in that time. Something like 4 or 5 major land campaigns have been fought out. The air/drone/missile war has gone through multiple iterations. Casualties are something north of 300,000 and vast global political and strategic forces have been transformed. 

I'll blame the social media (or the internet, or video games, or something) I guess.

I have raised this point a couple times but it is worth re-stating, we are victims of our own “history” - and by this we are talking about 30 years, Steve does have a point on short human attention spans.

Since ‘91 all of our “real wars” have been measured in weeks.  All those grubby unsportsmanlike and messy COIN things do not count.  So when we hit an actual peer-level conventional war and it isn’t over in a month..well clearly things have gone terribly wrong.  In short if all war is certainty, we in the western world have become very uncertain and jumpy as this war looks and feels very strange.  So we start jumping to all sorts of conclusions in order to try and regain certainty, it is human nature.

First we fear that our side is not winning/cannot win or some disaster is looming.  Then we start the “they are doing it wrong” narratives because clearly we would be done by now.  And this leads us down all sorts of weird back alleys - which frankly we are in one now as we celebrate Spain dumping 20 year old tanks in need “of some maintenance” along with a hodgepodge and logistical nightmare of military hardware that is starting to resemble the family “spare charger” drawer.  I am sure those won’t be the last time this happens, recall the scrap drives during WW2, which as I recall made everyone feel better but had little impact on the outcome of the war.

The reality is that this war has been very fast paced for one of this intensity and relative symmetry.  This looks and feels like a historical conventional war - long periods of brutal grinding punctuated by intense high intensity operations, this much has not changed.  The western wars of the last 30 years have been the anomalies, not this one.

[danfrodo]

38 minutes ago, billbindc said:

In the larger picture, it's pretty fascinating to observe the "WTF is taking so long?" vibes.

This conflict is 11 months old. Ukraine lost 36% of the country and regained 18% back in that time. Something like 4 or 5 major land campaigns have been fought out. The air/drone/missile war has gone through multiple iterations. Casualties are something north of 300,000 and vast global political and strategic forces have been transformed. 

I blame social media (or the internet, or video games, or something) I guess.

Those of us excited about western AFVs of all sorts maybe aren't just stupid World of Tanks players, perhaps?   Unless the UKR army command is same sort of stupid?  They are asking for this stuff also, screaming for it.  If this war goes into 2024 would you rather fight it w T64/72/BMP or w bradleys & Leo2s & abrams?   We continually see UKR forces attacking w HUMMVs & MRAPs -- is that all just fine because we have great ISR & drones & precision arty?  The ISR & precision is UKR critical advantage but they still need to actually fight for and hold ground w minimum of casualties. 

Kharkiv offensive was against a severely weakened front that basically had nearly nothing there.  Kherson was difficult because enemy was well prepared.  Kreminna/Svatove are also difficult, though mud maybe biggest factor.

We all get that it will take time to get the systems (crews, unit training, logistics, maintenence) in place.  But guess what?  August & September  are things that will most probably happen.  Dropping grenades on mobiks from drones is lovely, but sooner or later that trench has to be taken.  And there's gonna be lots more mobiks.  Lots more.  

I remember some hack CEO in ~2006 we had saying "3d printing?  that could take 5 years to pay off!".   As if 5 years won't ever happen.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by danfrodo
typo

[billbindc]

3 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

I have raised this point a couple times but it is worth re-stating, we are victims of our own “history” - and by this we are talking about 30 years, Steve does have a point on short human attention spans.

Since ‘91 all of our “real wars” have been measured in weeks.  All those grubby unsportsmanlike and messy COIN things do not count.  So when we hit an actual peer-level conventional war and it isn’t over in a month..well clearly things have gone terribly wrong.  In short if all war is certainty, we in the western world have become very uncertain and jumpy as this war looks and feels very strange.  So we start jumping to all sorts of conclusions in order to try and regain certainty, it is human nature.

First we fear that our side is not winning/cannot win or some disaster is looming.  Then we start the “they are doing it wrong” narratives because clearly we would be done by now.  And this leads us down all sorts of weird back alleys - which frankly we are in one now as we celebrate Spain dumping 20 year old tanks in need “of some maintenance” along with a hodgepodge and logistical nightmare of military hardware that is starting to resemble the family “spare charger” drawer.  I am sure those won’t be the last time this happens, recall the scrap drives during WW2, which as I recall made everyone feel better but had little impact on the outcome of the war.

The reality is that this war has been very fast paced for one of this intensity and relative symmetry.  This looks and feels like a historical conventional war - long periods of brutal grinding punctuated by intense high intensity operations, this much has not changed.  The western wars of the last 30 years have been the anomalies, not this one.

The last big "War Over by Christmas" was in 1914 when Western Europe/US was getting into it's first big war in 40+ years and had lost the habit of how these things work. History's got a rhyme to it.

[Zeleban]

Mashovets predicts a bold Russian offensive in the Donbas with an attempt to cut off Ukrainian troops in Bakhmut, Avdiivka and Vugledar.

As expected, yesterday the enemy launched active offensive actions in the direction of Ugledar. In particular:

- a consolidated tactical group (up to a reinforced company) from the 155th separate brigade Marines of the Pacific Fleet in the direction of Nikolskoye - Ugledar

- two platoons with armored vehicles in the direction of Nikolskoye - the area northeast of Pavlovka

- a tactical group (up to a reinforced company) from the 40th separate marines brigade of the Pacific Fleet in the direction of Shevchenkovo - Novoukrainka, managed to move south of the fork in the roads Pavlovka - Prechistovka and Pavlovka - Novomayorskoye.

It is obvious that the enemy command continues the implementation of the first stage of its offensive operation in the South and East, within which it carries out a series of active tactical actions (attacks) in certain areas in order to pin down the forces and means of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the southern operational direction and create preconditions for the start of the second stage of its general offensive plan in the eastern operating zone

Why...?

And in order to soon try to implement a larger and more ambitious plan, the general features of which have already begun to emerge ...

First, the enemy will try to encircle Ukrainian troops in the areas of Bakhmut and Avdeevka and blockade Seversk from the south. Then, he will launch another offensive in the Limansky direction (I think, simultaneously from Kremennaya and Svatovo) and try to cut off the Ugledar "balcony" ... simultaneously moving along both sides of the M04-E50 road

 

In the future, the enemy clearly plans to break through to the line Liman - Nikiforovka - Chasov Yar - Konstantinovka - Pokrovsk (possibly "limited" by Selidovo) and thus reach the near approaches to the Kramatorsk - Slavic agglomeration from the east, north and southeast. and actually the south.

 

[Zeleban]

 

But in order to realize all this, the enemy must first of all solve several urgent current "problems" that have names:

- Lyman (preferably in a compartment with Kupyansk)

 

- Belogorovka (upper) - Razdolovka

 

- Bahmut

- Avdeevka (hereinafter Pokrovsk - Selidovo)

- Vugledar...

 

Without this, any "dreams" about breakthroughs towards Kramatorsk - Druzhkovka and Slavyansk will remain only "wet dreams" ...

Moreover, it should be noted right away that the implementation of this plan, especially in the context of "pressing current problems", is accompanied by a number of, let's say, difficulties for the enemy, the overcoming of which, today, cannot be called especially close to implementation ... For example, somehow to get rid of the obvious threat of the fall of Kreminnaya, which can generally "confuse all plans", or even "something unpleasant" near Bolshaya Novoselka ..

Thus, certain conclusions can be drawn as to what we should expect in the short term of enemy actions ...

- It is obvious that the bold and even more ambitious plan of a POSSIBLE strategic offensive operation, in order to intercept the strategic initiative, is associated with the encirclement of the entire Eastern Group of Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine by means of two operational strikes brought down in its rear, approximately in the Kremenchug-Dnepr-Pavlograd region was YET was sacrificed by the enemy command for the sake of a banal gradual gnaw through of the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass and ousting them from there ... As I understand it, Gerasim and mu-mu now believe that this is more "reliable and guaranteed" than an operation for a deep breakthrough and encirclement strategic scale...

- It is obvious that the very real prospect of inflicting the Armed Forces of Ukraine, in turn, a strike towards Melitopol and Berdyansk or in the northern part of the Lugansk region (or even simultaneous such actions) also makes certain adjustments to the implementation of this plan to "gnaw through" ... with quite obvious hypothetically - catastrophic consequences for the enemy, especially the herd that is now dug in "in the corner" along the left bank of the Dnieper in the Kherson region.And it is quite possible that it is precisely for this reason that the Russian command, instead of the aggressively bold plan of a "deep operation", chose such a "gradually cautious" method ... And so, the activity in the Zaporozhye direction, the enemy in this context, is clearly not accidental .. and, apparently, is stipulated precisely by these considerations

- It is obvious that the stretched south-eastern "horseshoe", which is currently occupied by the Russian occupation forces on the territory of Ukraine, let's say, is not very convenient for conducting any kind of strategic defense, especially in relation to its south-western flank. For in order to ensure its more or less permanent stability in this sense, it is necessary in any case to ensure the retention of its central part and one of the flanks, at a time when the enemy (Ukraine) can choose any operational-strategic direction in order to start break this "horseshoe", sawing off the extreme, flank parts from it in any sequence convenient for you.

And this, in turn, leaves a certain imprint on the entire Russian strategy of waging this war ... because according to the classical norms of the "Soviet-Russian military school", this "horseshoe" should just push the Russian command precisely towards planning and conducting deep operations " on the environment"... everything that finds inside this "horseshoe"... That is, ATTACK... moreover, actively, aggressively and trying to "surround and defeat", instead, the pigdogs are forced to carefully try to "force out" this way. .. almost in the very center of this "horseshoe", because if they are substituted somewhere (as was the case between Izyum and Kharkov), then Zaluzhny clearly "will not miss" this ...

 

– I think the key issue in the implementation of the entire strategy of the Kremlin in this war at this stage is the solution of the dilemma – what has a greater and real chance for successful practical implementation? Or the ability of the Russians to "successfully advance in the Donbas" or "more deeply" the ability of the Ukrainians to "successfully break through to the northern coast of Azov"...?

[Zeleban]

Simultaneous solution of these problems today is beyond the power of the Russians ... They will have to choose one thing ... It is quite possible when they "mobilize" even more carcasses ... they will have such an opportunity ... but so far, it is not. .. Therefore, for now, you will have to "gnaw" the Ukrainian "Donbass fortress" ... trying in the South to demonstrate their readiness to "go on a decisive and decisive offensive" ... in order to force the Armed Forces of Ukraine to prepare for defense in the Zaporozhye direction ...

That is, they will try to attack ...

- Or "only in Donbass"

- Or try both there and in the South (which looks less realistic and more difficult)

 

If they decide on a "deep strategic operation", then it will look, to put it mildly, a little differently ... and so, in Belarus then "the situation will change dramatically"

[danfrodo]

2 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

Simultaneous solution of these problems today is beyond the power of the Russians ... They will have to choose one thing ... It is quite possible when they "mobilize" even more carcasses ... they will have such an opportunity ... but so far, it is not. .. Therefore, for now, you will have to "gnaw" the Ukrainian "Donbass fortress" ... trying in the South to demonstrate their readiness to "go on a decisive and decisive offensive" ... in order to force the Armed Forces of Ukraine to prepare for defense in the Zaporozhye direction ...

That is, they will try to attack ...

- Or "only in Donbass"

- Or try both there and in the South (which looks less realistic and more difficult)

 

If they decide on a "deep strategic operation", then it will look, to put it mildly, a little differently ... and so, in Belarus then "the situation will change dramatically"

wow, great stuff as always, Zeleban.  So I have been assuming UKR lack of offensive is due mostly to mud.  But maybe UKR is simply "not interrupting the enemy when he's making a mistake"?   Maybe UKR has high enough advantage in casualties that it's better to kill RU in the open for now so he'll be weaker later?

[dan/california]

10 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Looks like the Swiss didn't want to be left out of the "change of policy" camp.  They are now allowing transfers of Swiss made military items to Ukraine:

https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/wende-bei-waffen-exporten-schweiz-ld.1722731

Steve

 i suspect they were quietly given a list of various profitable businesses practices that could become far less profitable if the EU and US really wanted them too.

5 hours ago, Huba said:

Facts shouldn't stand in a way of a good headline  Luckily the issue of fighters won't rely on Germany much (maybe except giving the green light for reexporting ex-DDR MiGs, but again not crucial).
I just read that the M1s for Ukraine will be financed by another mechanism, not PDA, and will probably be new, arriving only next year. And in the meantime the tank deliveries are to rely on Europe, putting Germany in the center of the effort, at least for the duration of 2023. Let's see how it will go, the hopes are high, so is the potential to improve DE image in this regard, which would be a good thing for everyone involved. 
 

In other news, RU Foreign Ministry got something right, for a change:

 

Bleep me I hope so!

3 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Finally had a chance to fully read this article. Sounds a lot like the noise the US was making when they were touting the offensive around Kherson when the real attack was around Kharkiv.
 

Is Russia stupid enough to fall for the same trick twice?

The sonorous tone of not quite sorrow does have a certain ring doesn't it. Been thinking that for at least two weeks.

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

That is an outstanding example of what I think is happening all along the frontline.  It is corrosive warfare in action.  The precision with which they are calling fires is insane - “move a little right and hit that trench”.  They are clearing trenches and hitting single vehicles from kms away.

Now if we want to really make a difference it looks like the UA needs: more trained and equipped recon infantry, better UAS with longer endurance and can see in all-weather, and as much artillery as we can send them.

And while we are at it as far as I can tell we have not sent the UA anything like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM395_Precision_Guided_Mortar_Munition

They have the larger Excalibur but a JDAMs-like attachment to an existing lighter mortar would make things even more deadly and could be put into action soonest.

I need to look this up again but I am almost certain I saw an article at some point in the last five years that the U.S. was not particularly happy with this round/system. And that they therefore hadn't REALLY invested in it. I need to look at that again, to the extent possible without any clearances to speak of.

32 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

I have raised this point a couple times but it is worth re-stating, we are victims of our own “history” - and by this we are talking about 30 years, Steve does have a point on short human attention spans.

Since ‘91 all of our “real wars” have been measured in weeks.  All those grubby unsportsmanlike and messy COIN things do not count.  So when we hit an actual peer-level conventional war and it isn’t over in a month..well clearly things have gone terribly wrong.  In short if all war is certainty, we in the western world have become very uncertain and jumpy as this war looks and feels very strange.  So we start jumping to all sorts of conclusions in order to try and regain certainty, it is human nature.

First we fear that our side is not winning/cannot win or some disaster is looming.  Then we start the “they are doing it wrong” narratives because clearly we would be done by now.  And this leads us down all sorts of weird back alleys - which frankly we are in one now as we celebrate Spain dumping 20 year old tanks in need “of some maintenance” along with a hodgepodge and logistical nightmare of military hardware that is starting to resemble the family “spare charger” drawer.  I am sure those won’t be the last time this happens, recall the scrap drives during WW2, which as I recall made everyone feel better but had little impact on the outcome of the war.

The reality is that this war has been very fast paced for one of this intensity and relative symmetry.  This looks and feels like a historical conventional war - long periods of brutal grinding punctuated by intense high intensity operations, this much has not changed.  The western wars of the last 30 years have been the anomalies, not this one.

See below...

26 minutes ago, billbindc said:

The last big "War Over by Christmas" was in 1914 when Western Europe/US was getting into it's first big war in 40+ years and had lost the habit of how these things work. History's got a rhyme to it.

No sane person/country gets into a grinding, even fight like this intentionally. The Russians got into it because their pre war assessment of pretty much everything was in fact clinically insane, and the Ukrainians are here because their other choice is annihilation, or near as makes no matter.

27 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

Those of us exciting about western AFVs of all sorts maybe aren't just stupid World of Tanks players, perhaps?   Unless the UKR army command is same sort of stupid?  They are asking for this stuff also, screaming for it.  If this war goes into 2024 would you rather fight it w T64/72/BMP or w bradleys & Leo2s & abrams?   We continually see UKR forces attacking w HUMMVs & MRAPs -- is that all just fine because we have great ISR & drones & precision arty?  The ISR & precision is UKR critical advantage but they still need to actually fight for and hold ground w minimum of casualties. 

Kharkiv offensive was against a severely weakened front that basically had nearly nothing there.  Kherson was difficult because enemy was well prepared.  Kreminna/Svatove are also difficult, though mud maybe biggest factor.

We all get that it will take time to get the systems (crews, unit training, logistics, maintenence) in place.  But guess what?  August & September  are things that will most probably happen.  Dropping grenades on mobiks from drones is lovely, but sooner or later that trench has to be taken.  And there's gonna be lots more mobiks.  Lots more.  

I remember some hack CEO in ~2006 we had saying "3d printing?  that could take 5 years to pay off!".   As if 5 years won't ever happen.

 

All which brings us back to things we wish had been started six months ago. But in this case things have gone just well enough that there will be a later, in better late than never. As NamEndedAllen has eloquently stated maybe we are now past the point of arguing about what we are trying to do. It is time to put together a coherent, logistically sane overall plan and follow it. I concede it is possible there has been such a plan for a while, and this whole political thing was for show. But all we can act on is what we at least think that we know.

Edited January 25, 2023 by dan/california

[chrisl]

2 hours ago, Huba said:

 

Also Biden is to make an official announcement in 2h, presumably to speak on the subject of M1s.
And, PL MoD Błaszczak spoke with US SecDef today, and reportedly we are not yet done with big news for today.

So even the Jawas are sending heavy equipment to Ukraine.  Why can't Scholz?

[sburke]

ruh roh

Russians Urged to Keep Kids Indoors—as Wagner’s Freed Convicts Come Home (yahoo.com)

[dan/california]

Listened to a speech by Mitch McConnell on the radio taking a kid to school. He was trying to be more pro Ukraine than the Polish President. That isn't possible, but by God he tried, MORE, FASTER, why not six months ago?! everything but "Muscovy delenda est."

Edited January 25, 2023 by dan/california

[danfrodo]

10 minutes ago, sburke said:

ruh roh

Russians Urged to Keep Kids Indoors—as Wagner’s Freed Convicts Come Home (yahoo.com)

So a bunch of already violent traumatized inmates are sent to front for further trauma, subjagation & oppression, and are then set free in russian society.  Seems like a good plan.  The only better idea would be to let them take home their AKs.

[danfrodo]

1 minute ago, dan/california said:

Listened to a speech by Mitch McConnell on the radio taking a kid to school. He was trying to be more pro Ukraine than the Polish President. That isn't possible, but by God he tried, MORE, FASTER, why not six months ago?! everything but "Muscovy delenda est."

Dang it, now I have to hate him less.  But I gotta give credit where credit is due, so here goes:  THANK YOU, MITCH.