How can T90s Knock Out Abrams?

[THH149]

Say if you had a single tank, vs a platoon of T90s, vs a company of T90s, how would you knock out Abrams and what support unit would you need to bring with you?

Assuming Russians are the attacker.

No, I'm not a Putin spy looking for answers

THH

[domfluff]

M1A2 Abrams and Javelins in Black Sea are disruptive technologies, and trying to work out what to do against them is one of the core problems you need to solve - there really aren't any reliably good answers.

The T-90AM and AT-14 can both penetrate an Abrams frontally... but probably won't. Both of them will happily go through the sides, and both are significantly cheaper - you will usually have more of them.

This means that the basic, generic idea has to be to coordinate an attack simultaneously from at least two different directions, ideally with at least 90 degrees displacement between them. If this was two T-90 platoons, then each would attack on-line, and at the same time, and would need their flanks screened, presumably by infantry.

To make this work requires excellent reconnaissance (drones do a lot of work here), excellent counter-reconnaissance (this is well developed by the Russians in general, but even just thinking in terms of drones - the Russian anti-air is superb, and can easily blind the US from the air), and great coordination (this one is on you).

[domfluff]

Yeah, as a conceptual/target range example of that:



Ran this test a few times. This is two T-90AM (APS) platoons versus an M1A2 SEP 2 (APS) platoon. Since the above Abrams is approximately twice the value of the T-90 in Quick Battle points, the Abrams have the advantage in points here (4:3).

The T-90 were given a drone for spotting contacts, and were set up about 800-900m away, offset as above, and would approach into hull down.

In each test, the T-90s win, typically losing a single T-90 in the process. Often this engagement only takes a single turn to play out, but sometimes smoke lengthens this.

So... like this, basically, just in a more generic sense.

[THH149]

Ah ok, thanks, that's useful. Coordination needs care as you say, but still doable vs AI, perhaps less so against another player.

Is there a possibility to use the Abrams laser detection and auto smoke and reverse move combination against it?

I'm noticing for instance, firstly, that vehicles run out of smoke and stop reversing once they've been lasered and just sit there to be hit, and secondly, they might reverse into a handy location where a T90 could fire their main gun.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

With a mixture of sneakiness & luck! 

This one got two plus a brace of Bradleys to go with 'em!   

PS - Note the direction it's attacking from, relative to its foes. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Grey_Fox]

1 hour ago, THH149 said:

Ah ok, thanks, that's useful. Coordination needs care as you say, but still doable vs AI, perhaps less so against another player.

Is there a possibility to use the Abrams laser detection and auto smoke and reverse move combination against it?

I'm noticing for instance, firstly, that vehicles run out of smoke and stop reversing once they've been lasered and just sit there to be hit, and secondly, they might reverse into a handy location where a T90 could fire their main gun.

In a recent PBEM I was playing as Russia against the US. After some initial bloodletting I set up my ATGM teams in a set of tall buildings which were able to overlook much of the map. I had them all on short range target arcs and gave them sufficient time to acquire as many of the enemy as possible.

When I was ready to begin the engagement proper, I turned off all target arcs and laughed in joy as almost every single US vehicle popped smoke and reversed into cover, allowing me to push my company of T90s into positions where they were able to engage a fraction of the US force with maximum firepower.

By the time we ceasefired, out of the US force (a platoon of Abrams and a company of Bradleys) only 4 Bradleys and 2 Abrams were fully operational. Although I didn't kill a single Abrams, one was entirely combat ineffective and the other had substantial subsystem damage, both after taking several ATGM hits frontally. The US infantry had used up almost all of their javelins, to little effect due to my tanks being on higher ground, allowing Arena to defeat almost all of the javelins which were fired.

In return however I lost about half of my BMPs (mostly from an ill-considered attempt at an opposed rover crossing) and a third of my T90 company either knocked out or immobilized.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[THH149]

Loving these T90 vs Abrams stories ...

 

[Stardekk]

Its not a T-90, but another way to kil M1A2s is with the Khrizantema, their missiles are Radar Guided which means they won't trigger the Laser Warnning on the T-90s. And also, I'm pretty sure M1A2s should not have LSW unless its a special modification on the tank like Trophy.

[John Kettler]

Something went wrong, for the post I wrote for this thread has disappeared. The gist of it is that the T-90AM can frontally kill the mighty M1A2 SEPV3 Abrams at typical CMBS ranges. Granted, this is a sample size of a two separate battles, one of which was a tank duel just to see how things played out, the other a tiny scenario in which the Americans were advancing in company with M2 Bradleys and came under fire. In cases where the T-90AM fired KE and hit an Abrams, the tank died but didn't explode, and I've seen no instances in which a T-90AM ever wounded an Abrams. It's not uncommon to see the T-90AM's armor stop the first KE hit from an Abrams, but none has ever survived a second. In the tank duel, tank count was the same, and both sides were Veteran. Don't recall what the ratings were in the tiny battle.  There was. another engagement I fought using a Veteran Abrams vs a pair of T-90s, whose troop quality I don't recall but was at least regular. Per usual Russian practice, they were Buttoned. Abrams got off first shot, which was stopped by the ERA on the T-90 hit. That tank, before it could even reply, was hit and destroyed by the Abrams, which also nailed the other T-90, which got off a shot but missed, something the Abrams didn't and got a first round kill.  In this last engagement, my Abrams, which started out with no LOS at all, drove out of the tress and practically dead front of two static T-90s. In no instance in any of the fights was the Russian CLGM used.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited February 13, 2022 by John Kettler

[MOS:96B2P]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:50 AM, Stardekk said:

another way to kil M1A2s is with the Khrizantema, their missiles are Radar Guided 

+1.  This.  Below is a Khrizantema drill.

 

1. Check wind strength and direction. (Wind strength not more than medium.)

2. Give smoke vehicle¹ Fast order waypoint short of where you want smoke & upwind of Khriz. Vehicles.  

3. At Fast waypoint give Pop Smoke order.² (make sure smoke is on (Alt K))

4. Next turn Fast buttoned³ Khriz. vehicles to a shoot position⁴ behind smoke.

5. Once vehicles are in good LOS location place them on Pause. 

6. Maintain smoke as long as possible / necessary.  Reposition before smoke clears.  If Khrizantema crews become rattled they may not shoot.

Notes: 1)Typically BRM-3K which can Pop Smoke twice with a range of 72m (9xA/S). 2)If vehicle spots OpFor it may engage instead of Pop Smoke.  3)Khris. must be buttoned to use radar and has a minimum range of 400m. 4)Keep at least two open Action Spots between Khrizantema vehicles.     

[dbsapp]

49 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

+1.  This.  Below is a Khrizantema drill.

 

1. Check wind strength and direction. (Wind strength not more than medium.)

2. Give smoke vehicle¹ Fast order waypoint short of where you want smoke & upwind of Khriz. Vehicles.  

3. At Fast waypoint give Pop Smoke order.² (make sure smoke is on (Alt K))

4. Next turn Fast buttoned³ Khriz. vehicles to a shoot position⁴ behind smoke.

5. Once vehicles are in good LOS location place them on Pause. 

6. Maintain smoke as long as possible / necessary.  Reposition before smoke clears.  If Khrizantema crews become rattled they may not shoot.

Notes: 1)Typically BRM-3K which can Pop Smoke twice with a range of 72m (9xA/S). 2)If vehicle spots OpFor it may engage instead of Pop Smoke.  3)Khris. must be buttoned to use radar and has a minimum range of 400m. 4)Keep at least two open Action Spots between Khrizantema vehicles.     

 

[THH149]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:10 AM, MOS:96B2P said:

Pop Smoke

Can't everyone by this time see through a BMP3's smoke? Its no issue I guess for the Krizantema given its radar guided but the defending vehicles could. 

Or is there a difference (or no difference) between pop smoke and smoke generated after being lazed?

mmm, questions, questions! 

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, THH149 said:

Can't everyone by this time see through a BMP3's smoke? Its no issue I guess for the Krizantema given its radar guided but the defending vehicles could. 

Artillery smoke does not block IR in the game.  In CMBS all US vehicle smoke is IR-blocking.  Black RUS / UKR vehicle smoke is not IR blocking.  White RUS / UKR vehicle smoke (e.g. Shtora) is IR-blocking.

The radar system on the Khrizantema-S is able to see through IR blocking smoke.  The Russian millimeter wave ground search radar on the Khrizantema-S can "see" through even multispectral smoke. Russian vehicles can only shoot smoke twice.  BRM-1Ks also has radar to see and shoot through IR blocking smoke.    

I think image intensification (night vision) sights and thermals sights are listed as "IR optics."  Units with thermals can see through regular smoke.  They are treated differently, but both displayed under the damage panel as "IR optics."  Easiest way to determine if the IR optics is night vision or thermal is to check LOS through artillery smoke (units with thermals will not have blocked LOS).  

[ncc1701e]

Attack them from the side or from the rear if possible. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 2/7/2022 at 7:25 PM, Grey_Fox said:

The US infantry had used up almost all of their javelins, to little effect due to my tanks being on higher ground, allowing Arena to defeat almost all of the javelins which were fired.

That's pretty cool, everyday learn something new.  Do you have a screenshot for those events? 

[Chibot Mk IX]

19 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I think image intensification (night vision) sights and thermals sights are listed as "IR optics."  Units with thermals can see through regular smoke.  They are treated differently, but both displayed under the damage panel as "IR optics."   

I complaint this long time ago, hopefully battlefront can distinguish Thermal Imager working at Long-wavelength infrared with regular IR optics working at Near-infrared wavelength.

 

on the other hand, many CMBS AFV has CITV (Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer ) on the info panel. That's an indication on if this AFV can see through smoke (and better to leave Tank Commander buttoned) 

 

[IMHO]

On 2/7/2022 at 1:53 PM, THH149 said:

how would you knock out Abrams

If you play RT PvE:

1. Spot Abrams with an infantry team. Since it has very good thermals try to avoid putting your spotting team facing Abrams' front.
2. Put two tanks flanking the Abrams yet so far covered from it.
3. Roll out one of your tanks to try to spot Abrams.
4. Abrams will see your tank first most of the time yet since you have infantry's eyes on Abrams you'll see it turn the turret. So when you see it - just roll back your tank into cover and roll out the other.
5. Repeat till one of your tanks spots Abrams first 
6. You can also use area fire on Abrams to try to degrade its sensors. Though only direct hits count and not all of them deal damage.
7. Putting your tanks above or below Abrams helps as it somewhat increases the time Abrams needs to target your tank.

You can use this tactics in PvP or turn-based PvE as well by rolling out and rolling back with a short pause command in between. Though whereas you can do it with zero damage in RT PvE all the time you'd need to accept certain casualties in turn-based. Too short a pause - and your tank never ever spots Abrams, too long - you loose a tank. Infantry team overwatching Abrams is still of use as you'll know if Abrams moves and what direction Abrams' turret facing at the moment. So that you can somewhat reduce your risk by using the "right" tank at least at the beginning of the turn.

Edited February 16, 2022 by IMHO