Attacking Compounds

[Codreanu]

Do you guys have any strategies you use when attacking compounds surrounded by low walls or hedges that stop you from getting line of sight onto the bottom floors of the buildings inside of it but still allow you/the enemies to shoot if they're spotted? Is it best to shoot at the hedge/wall itself even if the building is pretty deep inside of it? Picture attached is what I'm talking about, can't target any deeper than the first line of hedges and there's no raised terrain or tall buildings to shoot down into it.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Codreanu

[Artkin]

If you cant kill it, go around it? Then isolate and destroy it!

[Codreanu]

Bypassing them can work but sometimes maps are filled with these things or they might be in a key position that you really just have to attack and they stop you from being able to use the target command on them until you get right up on them. The only real ways I can think of when it comes to attacking them is trying to rush a tank up real close and blast it, attacking the hedge and hoping it destroys the hedge or overshoots hit the building, or trying to maneuver towards any hole or open side. Infantry assaults seem like death because there's no way to pour suppressing fire on the guys inside until you are at the hedge anyway.

[Simcoe]

11 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

Bypassing them can work but sometimes maps are filled with these things or they might be in a key position that you really just have to attack and they stop you from being able to use the target command on them until you get right up on them. The only real ways I can think of when it comes to attacking them is trying to rush a tank up real close and blast it, attacking the hedge and hoping it destroys the hedge or overshoots hit the building, or trying to maneuver towards any hole or open side. Infantry assaults seem like death because there's no way to pour suppressing fire on the guys inside until you are at the hedge anyway.

Using tanks is viable. Do you know how to do a shoot and scoot?

Indirect fire is preferable.

Close in attacks like these are always about giving the opponent an unfavorable choice. For example: two fire teams need to assault a foxhole. If you throw one fire team at the foxhole the enemy will probably shoot down their attackers but if you move the second fire team to their flank and attack at the same time, the defender can shoot one team down but the other has a clear shot at their backs.

In this situation, I would surround the compound as much as possible and use small scout teams with the hunt command to find the positions (accepting losses) then do a coordinated assault making sure that each position is attacked from at least two sides.

[chuckdyke]

Consider taking your objectives and attack easier enemy units. If you get them to surrender it solves the problem of strongpoints. 

[holoween]

You could smoke the hedge and then move up to it. You can easily place 2 squads on that hedge and they should easily overwhelm anything inside the buildings once the smoke clears.

[MikeyD]

I believe one of those building types doesn't have windows on the gable ends. Theoretically you could walk right up to it if you approach it from the blind side... unless the other is offset enough that the two buildings can provide mutually supporting fire.

One thing that freaks out pixeltruppen is coming under attack from two sides at once. It you bring a building under fire from front and back you may be able to break their morale, then you storm in while they're cowering.

[womble]

Area targets at the hedge itself will still leave many rounds carrying through, which will probably impact the building and generate suppression. It won't be as strong an effect "per team" as you'd get without the hedge in the way, so you need more incoming.

If you've any smoke missions available, dropping a linear in front of the building, up close to it, lets you get right in the enemy's face with whatever assault assets you want, and get their fire support set up at the hedge line to generate suppression once the smoke clears.

Depending on the topology, you might well be able to crawl (Slow) in dead ground (the hedge blocks their LOS as well as yours; just be very wary of any small gaps...) . In the example picture, you've a building to the right that you can probably infiltrate (at Slow) with a firebase, then the objective is on a "little hump", it looks like, which might have actual defilade to the sides.

[Codreanu]

13 hours ago, Simcoe said:

In this situation, I would surround the compound as much as possible and use small scout teams with the hunt command to find the positions (accepting losses) then do a coordinated assault making sure that each position is attacked from at least two sides.

Mitigating risk and losses when attacking them is most of the issue I have when attacking them, they rarely have more than one split down squad inside of them so they become more of an annoying speed bump that attrite my forces. The way I've been trying to clear them out so far is somewhat similar to that method, except instead of hunt I use quick or fast moving my men from cover to cover as they close the gap, this turns it into a little game of whack-a-mole where the enemy inside will spot them and fire a bit and reveal themselves, sometimes other men I have on overwatch will be able to get one but sometimes one of my own men will get hit instead. I either do that or try to rush a tank up to the hedge, shoot inside for 15-30 seconds, and then reverse, maybe repeat it once again and then send in the infantry to clear out the buildings, that keeps infantry casualties down to about nothing but then you run into the risk of a hidden AT gun, I guess using that comes down to reading the battlefield and estimating the likelihood of that position being covered by an AT gun based off of what you've seen up to that point.

10 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I believe one of those building types doesn't have windows on the gable ends. Theoretically you could walk right up to it if you approach it from the blind side... unless the other is offset enough that the two buildings can provide mutually supporting fire.

One thing that freaks out pixeltruppen is coming under attack from two sides at once. It you bring a building under fire from front and back you may be able to break their morale, then you storm in while they're cowering.

Front building has windows all around, rear one only has them on the front and sides, one could attack from left to right and only have to deal with being shot from the front building but you'd have to cross about 80m of flat, open field. Bottom is half open field half swamp, right is all swamp, and top is a large field with the enemy's main line of resistance behind it. I ended up just rushing in a tank and blasting it which worked but I'm always paranoid about some sort of anti-tank weaponry knocking one out when making a mad dash over open ground and up to those little hamlets or compounds without infantry support. I guess it's all about taking those calculated risks but I'd hate to lose a tank just to clear out one annoying squad I can't get proper LoS on.

10 hours ago, womble said:

Area targets at the hedge itself will still leave many rounds carrying through, which will probably impact the building and generate suppression. It won't be as strong an effect "per team" as you'd get without the hedge in the way, so you need more incoming.

I'll try targeting the hedge next time, I never trust suppressing fire unless it's actually on target but even reduced suppression is a whole lot better than nothing, maybe tank shells could destroy the hedge too and create a gap where it could get proper LoS to the building.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

19 hours ago, MikeyD said:

One thing that freaks out pixeltruppen is coming under attack from two sides at once. It you bring a building under fire from front and back you may be able to break their morale, then you storm in while they're cowering.

This is probably the key.....If you can get squads to the hedgeline from multiple directions you should overwhelm them, smoke is alway your friend in moments like this.

[womble]

13 hours ago, Codreanu said:

I either do that or try to rush a tank up to the hedge, shoot inside for 15-30 seconds, and then reverse,

Wait, what? Your tank can't get LOS from way back, but the house can get LOS on infantry that's crossing the ground between where the tank can't see the house and where the tank can? That sounds like an unusually asymmetric LOS resolution.

Also, I just noticed the rear house has an upper storey. Tank-based HE into that layer will definitely cause suppression on any infantry in the floor below.

[Codreanu]

8 hours ago, womble said:

Wait, what? Your tank can't get LOS from way back, but the house can get LOS on infantry that's crossing the ground between where the tank can't see the house and where the tank can? That sounds like an unusually asymmetric LOS resolution.

Also, I just noticed the rear house has an upper storey. Tank-based HE into that layer will definitely cause suppression on any infantry in the floor below.

Units can get LOS on each other if they see them but I can't get LOS on the very bottom of the ground floor of the houses so I can't use the target command on it is what I meant. If I move a tank or infantry up to the hedge they can finally manage to see the ground floor and target it. If any little sliver of the bottom of the bottom floor is out of sight it seems to make targeting it impossible even if you can see 95% of the rest of the floor.

[Grey_Fox]

All of this discussion begs the question: why are you trying to assault into a building which have active enemies when you have tanks which can blast the building apart?

[Codreanu]

3 hours ago, Grey_Fox said:

All of this discussion begs the question: why are you trying to assault into a building which have active enemies when you have tanks which can blast the building apart?

Because the target command doesn't work on ground floors if there's a little bit of the ground floor concealed by the hedge, if I could actually target the ground floor I'd happily pelt the house with HE until it collapsed. Only options that I can see is hoping the tank sees the soldiers inside of the house, targets them, and shoots, I drive the tank up close enough until it can get line of sight and shoot it that way which works fine against the Russians but against any nation with handheld anti-tank weapons seems risky, or shoot at the hedge itself and hope any overshoots hit the building behind it. Maybe it's just user error but I always have a hell of a time trying to target ground floors if there's a low hedge or wall in front of it or if the building is slightly sunken into the ground. After messing around with it for a bit just trying to target as close as you can to the ground floor and letting the overshoots hit the building is the safest way to do things even if it takes longer and expends more ammo.

[Grey_Fox]

27 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

Because the target command doesn't work on ground floors if there's a little bit of the ground floor concealed by the hedge, if I could actually target the ground floor I'd happily pelt the house with HE until it collapsed. Only options that I can see is hoping the tank sees the soldiers inside of the house, targets them, and shoots, I drive the tank up close enough until it can get line of sight and shoot it that way which works fine against the Russians but against any nation with handheld anti-tank weapons seems risky, or shoot at the hedge itself and hope any overshoots hit the building behind it. Maybe it's just user error but I always have a hell of a time trying to target ground floors if there's a low hedge or wall in front of it or if the building is slightly sunken into the ground. After messing around with it for a bit just trying to target as close as you can to the ground floor and letting the overshoots hit the building is the safest way to do things even if it takes longer and expends more ammo.

If you actually need to take the building, keep shooting it until there isn't a building there any more. Your problem is an inadequate use of high explosives.

Another thing to consider: do you actually need to take those buildings? If an objective marker isn't there, can you just bypass it?

[chuckdyke]

32 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

Because the target command doesn't work on ground floors if there's a little bit of the ground floor concealed by the hedge,

A far more enjoyable game if you  go by the TacAI if they get a contact they fire. The odds to kill anything by spraying and praying is low. I agree with @Grey_Fox how relevant is a building? If they are relevant go for it not relevant bypass it. To deal with buildings satchel charges and smoke. Attack from a windowless gable. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by chuckdyke

[MeatEtr]

Bypassing is irrelevant, its a tactical puzzle he wants to solve without taking any losses. LOS blocked to the bottom floor rules out area targeting. It's a well documented and discussed engine/game LOS limitation.

Small on-board mortars will suppress units inside. Just make sure the angle is correct so shells falling short dont land on your side of the hedge. Rushing a tank close to get LOS to bottom floor is risky. If you do this, just make sure you time it so your infantry are arriving at the hedge before or at same time. This is to draw fire/attention away from your tank.

Also give your infantry an area target order when they do arrive at the hedge to start putting fire into the building immediately.

[Codreanu]

22 minutes ago, Grey_Fox said:

If you actually need to take the building, keep shooting it until there isn't a building there any more. Your problem is an inadequate use of high explosives.

Another thing to consider: do you actually need to take those buildings? If an objective marker isn't there, can you just bypass it?

Shooting until the building falls or at least until the wall is blown away is how I typically do it if I'm able but being unable to target the building was my problem. The only way to actually hit it was to shoot at the hedge in front of it and hope that some of the rounds overshoot the hedge and hit the house behind it which seems to be the best way to solve the problem if you're having LOS issues. In this particular situation the enemies definitely needed to be taken care of and they were more of an annoying speed bump plinking at my men rather than a strongly fortified position.

31 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

A far more enjoyable game if you  go by the TacAI if they get a contact they fire. The odds to kill anything by spraying and praying is low.

TacAI can't do sustained suppressing fire to my knowledge, when they see a solid contact they shoot at it until they can't see it anymore and then they stop shooting, targeting the terrain that the enemy is on or near is the only way to keep them shooting. I would rather take them out at a distance with a tank, or at least keep them suppressed with constant MG fire than play whack-a-mole with them only shooting when they see the guy peeking out the window and shooting at them.

2 minutes ago, MeatEtr said:

Small on-board mortars will suppress units inside. Just make sure the angle is correct so shells falling short dont land on your side of the hedge. Rushing a tank close to get LOS to bottom floor is risky. If you do this, just make sure you time it so your infantry are arriving at the hedge before or at same time. This is to draw fire/attention away from your tank.

Also give your infantry an area target order when they do arrive at the hedge to start putting fire into the building immediately.

Thank you, this is helpful and is the tactic I ended up going with, was fighting the Soviets so didn't have to worry about man-portable AT so I could just hammer the buildings with HE and then move up infantry while the guys inside were pinned, if I was fighting the Germans instead I think I would have done just a brief 15 second target order and then reversed the tank while the infantry moved up to lessen the risk of getting hit with a panzerfaust. Enemy had a lot of AT guns so I was worried about rushing my tank forward but it ended up not being an issue this time.

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

I would rather take them out at a distance with a tank,

It means you have to shoot at a building till it is rubble. It depends on the warning orders at the beginning of a scenario. I keep my guidelines on the economy of my logistics. Once out of HE the infantry loses its support. 

[Artkin]

35 minutes ago, MeatEtr said:

Bypassing is irrelevant

Point being if there are no other options then surround the objective and hit from all sides at once, which will absolutely do the job.

[amadeupname]

So, I'd start by sending out a scout team to take a look around. If something's there, I'd drop mortars on the buildings (or area target the top floor with the tanks) to suppress whoever's inside, move infantry up to the hedgerow and give them area target commands on the buildings You could also bring along sappers to blast a hole in the hedgerows and open it up for your tanks. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by amadeupname

[Lethaface]

If there is really no place (some minor elevated position is often enough) from which you can target (suppress) the building with tanks/MGs from a distance, I'd try overwhelming the potential infantry from various sides.

I'd go for:

* Move fire teams with LMGs sneakily next to the hedge (with hide or 1 AS away from hedge), on positions facing windows and doors in the buildings. Like others mentioned, ideally achieving crossfires.
* Move assault teams next to the hedge facing blindspots in the buildings.

At X, unhide / move to the fire teams and start suppressing while the assault teams move to the blindside of the building. A short delay for the assault teams can allow for suppression to build before they move out. Before moving into the building and dropping suppressive fire, you can move the assault teams to a spot next to the building which allows to target the inside. Pause them there fore ~15 seconds with a target briefly command. They'll chuck grenades in as well.

If both buildings have enemies in them, it will be more difficult to achieve without casualties. But close quarters combat is deadly so that's to be factored in.  

[chuckdyke]

An excellent scenario is Operation Hammersmith in SF2. Tactic have plenty of movement with Crack Units in overwatch. I was hunting for the triggermen who must have the bridges under surveillance. 

Lure and trap give the enemy something to shoot at. I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of marksmanship in this scenario. Keep working and analyzing infantry movement techniques. Thanks to some good suggestions on this forum risky moves in the last 15 seconds and economical use of artillery and air support. Analyze troops at hand with what type of battle you fight. An Elite trooper is more valuable than his IFV in WW2 it is different. Here his PDA relays intel to the vehicle's VUDT at least the explanation I have that IFV receive contact icons over long distances. All the gear is still science fiction for me. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by chuckdyke