AT guns and AI

[skelley]

Why are AT gun crews split into 2 teams? When setting placement in AI for a platoon of ATs, it almost never pairs the ammo bearer with the gun. I placed 3-2square setup zones int the editor and this is what I got (3 AT guns in 2 squares). The old way of CMBO would work a lot better with 1 team and 40 or 50 rounds. I can't see any benefit to having them split. AT guns rarely last more than 15 rounds before getting KO'ed, so no real need to run and get more ammo. It would work if there were more AI groups then I could set each gun to its own group. Another way would be to make the ammo bearer a separate unit in the unit editor so we could just delete them. Does anybody have a work around for this. I've used all 16 AI Groups.

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, skelley said:

No real need to run and get more ammo.

If you put the ammo bearer first at the location of the firing position, the gun will first use the ammo of the ammo bearer. 

[skelley]

My issue isn't that the guns won't use the ammo bearer's ammo....its that the AI doesn't keep the ammo bearer with the gun. It would be easier just to give the gun 30 rounds and have it a single unit.

[chuckdyke]

44 minutes ago, skelley said:

.its that the AI doesn't keep the ammo bearer with the gun.

I use the ammo bearer as the scout for the unit. Same with the .30 or .50 Browning MG. The first half of the team positions the tri-pod then the second half places the MG on the tri-pod. That is how it is supposed to work we need the unit and be able to split when we reposition. Now the ammo bearer acts as security for the team and we have a team we can't split. 

[Erwin]

10 hours ago, skelley said:

My issue isn't that the guns won't use the ammo bearer's ammo....its that the AI doesn't keep the ammo bearer with the gun. It would be easier just to give the gun 30 rounds and have it a single unit.

Am assuming you mean the tactical AI opponent cannot keep the ammo bearer with the gun?  Yes, one can see that is an issue.

[skelley]

 

9 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I use the ammo bearer as the scout for the unit. Same with the .30 or .50 Browning MG. The first half of the team positions the tri-pod then the second half places the MG on the tri-pod. That is how it is supposed to work we need the unit and be able to split when we reposition. Now the ammo bearer acts as security for the team and we have a team we can't split. 

I am talking about the AIs handling of AT guns. AT guns don't do a lot of moving about during a battle so no need for a scout. MG42s don't have an ammo bearer and they seem to work pretty well. To me it is just an extra unit that has no useful function, but is counterproductive in the AI .

[Sgt.Squarehead]

  

6 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Am assuming you mean the tactical AI opponent cannot keep the ammo bearer with the gun?  Yes, one can see that is an issue.

Fairly sure @chuckdyke doesn't write scenarios.....The TacAI will leave Ammo Bearers exactly where the designer put them unless the player's actions or an AI Plan Order causes them to move. 

In the event that they are forced to move away from their gun, the AI does not have a means of returning them to their position, nor could it easily be done through AI Plan Orders.

TBH I often find @chuckdyke's posts a little opaque. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[kohlenklau]

@skelley Hmmm. I am at work or would try this experiment myself. 

Try to reduce the manning of the AT gun to 50% and see if it chops away the ammo handlers? maybe the priority goes to just the actual gun crew...

 

[skelley]

11 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Fairly sure @chuckdyke doesn't write scenarios.....The TacAI will leave Ammo Bearers exactly where the designer put them unless the player's actions or an AI Plan Order causes them to move. 

In the event that they are forced to move away from their gun, the AI does not have a means of returning them to their position, nor could it easily be done through AI Plan Orders.

TBH I often find @chuckdyke's posts a little opaque. 

The problem as I see it is the AI in scenario editing doesn't treat the Gun and ammo bearer as a team. It treats them as if they are totally different units. If you have a platoon of AT guns in the same AI Group and you want to spread them out over a ridge line.... It will not keep the ammo bearer with the gun and will often put 2 guns almost on top of each other. I've tried everything I can think of and nothing works. If it was all one unit it would work.... I do it with MG42s all the time by just placing dots on the map in AI and it makes it so you can randomize their position as pictured below.

[skelley]

7 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

@skelley Hmmm. I am at work or would try this experiment myself. 

Try to reduce the manning of the AT gun to 50% and see if it chops away the ammo handlers? maybe the priority goes to just the actual gun crew...

 

I have tried it with .30cals and it keeps the 1 man as ammo bearer but it's worth a try. Just tried it...it deleted 2 in the gun squad but kept both in the ammo bearer squad.

Edited September 8, 2021 by skelley

[Sgt.Squarehead]

You could do it by putting all the guns in one AI group & the Ammo Bearers in another, then give them identical painted setups as above (paint just one tile per unit).....You couldn't guarantee to get the right ammo team with the right gun, but you should get one of each at each location.

[skelley]

3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You could do it by putting all the guns in one AI group & the Ammo Bearers in another, then give them identical painted setups as above (paint just one tile per unit).....You couldn't guarantee to get the right ammo team with the right gun, but you should get one of each at each location.

The ammo bearers don't show up in the unit purchase screen or I would have just deleted them.

[skelley]

Another way BFC could fix this is to have ATGs be like a rifle squad. So you could split teams if you need to get more ammo out of the Truck or Halftrack.

 

[kohlenklau]

26 minutes ago, skelley said:

Just tried it...it deleted 2 in the gun squad but kept both in the ammo bearer squad.

Dang. okey doke

[kohlenklau]

I know you are mostly concerned with keeping ammo guys with their gun.

If you want...try this experiment maybe for the issue of 3 guns in 2 squares...? 

Have half of your yellow squares be in houses and see if this at least forces just one gun maximum in the part of the yellow square outside the house? Maybe even have a wall there on the outside to try and squeeze things even more to the goal of 1 gun in a square...? 

 

[domfluff]

You're probably better off with the guns not being assigned to an AI group at all.

If you have a Setup zone defined for an AI group, they will try to spread themselves evenly over that zone.

If you do not have a setup zone defined, but you start them in a deployment zone, they will set up randomly in that zone.

If you start them outside a deployment zone and with no AI group setup order defined, then they will start wherever you put them in the editor.


This obviously means that their positioning won't be randomised each time the scenario is played, but it's still probably a good idea for static defences that need precise positioning, like AT guns.

Edited September 8, 2021 by domfluff

[Sgt.Squarehead]

26 minutes ago, domfluff said:

You're probably better off with the guns not being assigned to an AI group at all.

27 minutes ago, domfluff said:

If you start them outside a deployment zone and with no AI group setup order defined, then they will start wherever you put them in the editor.

These are my preferred solutions.....AI Slot 1 is traditionally my 'fixed defenders'.

 

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

You're probably better off with the guns not being assigned to an AI group at all.

If you have a Setup zone defined for an AI group, they will try to spread themselves evenly over that zone.

If you do not have a setup zone defined, but you start them in a deployment zone, they will set up randomly in that zone.

If you start them outside a deployment zone and with no AI group setup order defined, then they will start wherever you put them in the editor.


This obviously means that their positioning won't be randomised each time the scenario is played, but it's still probably a good idea for static defences that need precise positioning, like AT guns.

But that prevents the defending player from placing more units next to the fixed guns.

[skelley]

You guys are probably right. Hopefully BFC takes a look at this in the future because there really is no need for a separate ammo bearer.

 

[ASL Veteran]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

You're probably better off with the guns not being assigned to an AI group at all.

If you have a Setup zone defined for an AI group, they will try to spread themselves evenly over that zone.

If you do not have a setup zone defined, but you start them in a deployment zone, they will set up randomly in that zone.

If you start them outside a deployment zone and with no AI group setup order defined, then they will start wherever you put them in the editor.


This obviously means that their positioning won't be randomised each time the scenario is played, but it's still probably a good idea for static defences that need precise positioning, like AT guns.

That's not 100% accurate

If you have a Setup zone defined for an AI group, they will try to spread themselves evenly over that zone (provided all the set up zone areas are located within the same Deployment Zone)

If you do not have a set up zone defined, but you start them in a Deployment Zone, they will remain where you set them up

If you start them outside a deployment zone then they will remain where you set them up regardless as to whether you have a setup order for them or not

 

The only time the AI will redeploy troops at start is if you have them assigned to an AI group, give them a Setup Order that is located within a deployment zone, and also the truppen must be within the same Deployment Zone that the setup order is located.

In other words, truppen will only redeploy within the same set up zone that you place them and will only move at start if there is also a set up order within that same deployment zone.

The main point, with regards to this thread, is that if you want your ATG ammo bearers to be next to the appropriate gun, then don't give them a setup order and set them up next to each other.  Yeah, then their locations won't be randomized, but at least they will have full ammo when they fire at the enemy.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

But that prevents the defending player from placing more units next to the fixed guns.

The designer does not need to place the guns outside a setup zone, just placing them on the map and ignoring them does the trick.....Once you start adding AI Setup Orders to their group things can go wrong.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing! 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

9 minutes ago, skelley said:

Hopefully BFC takes a look at this in the future because there really is no need for a separate ammo bearer.

Their main job is to Acquire ammunition from their transport vehicle when used by a human.

[skelley]

1 minute ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Their main job is to Acquire ammunition from their transport vehicle when used by a human.

True...but if it just became a 7 man crew with 35 rounds or so there be no need to get ammo from the truck, or just increase the ammount of AI groups and that solves a lot of other issues as well as this one

[MikeyD]

Whenever I need to precisely place a unit for the AI to use I never paint an initial setup zone for them in AI orders #1. You can give subsequent timed/triggered orders to them (hide, area target, etc) without using painted movement destinations. If you park an ammo truck close enough the AI-controlled gun will 'borrow' ammo without needing to acquire. The problem there, though, is you've got a big easily spotted target  parked practically on top of your gun. 

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, skelley said:

The problem as I see it is the AI in scenario editing doesn't treat the Gun and ammo bearer as a team.

As I human player I often wondered the same as the ammo bearer of Gun A can't supply Gun B for some reason. If you could split the team like a rifle squad it would solve some problems. You are even more restricted as an editor I understand.