Visibility? How do I view visible terrain?

[Erwin]

5 hours ago, Yskonyn said:

the game would be more comfortable to play if there was a little more feedback on LOS.

I used to feel that way as well.  But, if you figure in RL one can never be completely sure of LOS from any location, so that element of doubt is part of the game challenges.  We already have so much unrealistic "God's eye view" that is better than the most modern tech let alone WW2 era, and we have knowledge of every unit on the map.  

[chuckdyke]

This YT video shows exactly how LOS and LOF works in CM. He doesn't plot any LOF but let the TacAI do it. The moment he gets LOF the Churchill just pops up out of nowhere. I play the game like that too. If you move a unit make sure another unit is on overwatch.

Tidbit #90: Month by Month - YouTube

[Bufo]

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Camera Position 9 could be replaced by a topographic map. 

Yes, topographic maps would be an excellent addition.

[BFCElvis]

10 hours ago, Yskonyn said:

For example, weather conditions like fog or rain are not visible on the map in terms of graphical effects (haze) limiting the range units can see. Same goes for nighttime.

It's funny. I thought this was what he was asking in the OP. That's what my reply was based on. "How far can I see in this fog/rain/night". It's something that I check the first turn. It lets me know the maximum distance that I expect to be able to see in the battle. 

[Bufo]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:47 PM, BFCElvis said:

 "How far can I see in this fog/rain/night". It's something that I check the first turn.

And how do you do that?

[mjkerner]

Use the LOS tool in a clearing or somewhere with what would be a long view in clear weather. Blue line should show you the “range” of how far you can see.

 

[BFCElvis]

4 hours ago, Bufo said:

And how do you do that?

Exactly as mjkerner below you said (and as I said in my first reply). Have a unit that should have nearly unlimited LOS draw a target line and see how far out it goes. That will give you an idea of how far out your should expect to see through the darkness/fog/blizzard/etc. That's what I thought the OP meant when he was asking about visibility. 

[chuckdyke]

A combination of the cover-arc and the LOS tool makes it very easy. Eyeballing and you will see the elevated pieces of terrain reveal themselves. Great for setting up HMG's.

Edited May 20, 2021 by chuckdyke
Spelling

[Bufo]

1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

 Have a unit that should have nearly unlimited LOS draw a target line and see how far out it goes. That will give you an idea of how far out your should expect to see through the darkness/fog/blizzard/etc.

Wow never thought it works out for rain/night, etc. Every day you learn something new 

[landser]

Combat Mission could really use a feature or mode where clicking any unit under your command would shade or color all parts of the map visible to that unit.

[Holman]

1 hour ago, landser said:

Combat Mission could really use a feature or mode where clicking any unit under your command would shade or color all parts of the map visible to that unit.

Ideally, sure. Or... maybe not.

In CM, visibility is checked not per unit but per individual soldier. Your opened-up tank commander might see an enemy that the gunner can't; an infantry rifleman might see one that the squad machine-gunner can't; etc etc.

CM requires that you learn by practice what works and what doesn't. Some extra UI tools might actually make this harder, not easier.

[Erwin]

18 minutes ago, Holman said:

In CM, visibility is checked not per unit but per individual soldier. Your opened-up tank commander might see an enemy that the gunner can't; an infantry rifleman might see one that the squad machine-gunner can't; etc etc.

Quite so...  I used to describe CM2 as "The Game of Determining LOS".

[dbsapp]

8 hours ago, landser said:

Combat Mission could really use a feature or mode where clicking any unit under your command would shade or color all parts of the map visible to that unit.

Like it's done in Armored Brigade, Graviteam, Steel Beasts or almost anywhere else where LOS is important 

[chuckdyke]

People still don't have a glue of what the game is about. if 'Borg Spotting is your thing there are other games. Look up the meaning of relative spotting, trooper A spots something and trooper B is blissfully unaware. 

Combat Mission could really use a feature or mode where clicking any unit under your command would shade or color all parts of the map visible to that unit. @landser it is there it can be done with the cover arc tool. Test and experiment is all I can suggest. 

[Erwin]

Yes.  This is most often seen with crewed guns like HMG's:  The 3rd ammo loader can see a target and the player gets a nice TARGET line...  But the HMG gunner cannot see then target, so the HMG does not fire - leading to much frustration as there is almost always no way to move the HMG a few inches so that the gunner can acquire the obvious and clearly seen target.

[landser]

14 hours ago, Holman said:

In CM, visibility is checked not per unit but per individual soldier. Your opened-up tank commander might see an enemy that the gunner can't

I fail to see how this applies to the mode I am suggesting

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

People still don't have a glue of what the game is about. if 'Borg Spotting is your thing there are other games. Look up the meaning of relative spotting, trooper A spots something and trooper B is blissfully unaware.

Oh FFS.

Edited May 21, 2021 by landser

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Erwin said:

  But the HMG gunner cannot see then target,

I found the terrain plays a role plus the position of the unit. Example 'Road to Nijmegen Campaign'. Once their 0.30 Browning MG is deployed it doesn't have a LOS. I didn't realize that the weapon is positioned too low in the Corn Field as the vegetation blocks the LOS. Standing units have a LOS. Once the MG is on the road it solves the problem. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, landser said:

FFS.

Sad but true. Look at the shooting sports. Shooter A hits the Bullseye Shooter B just can't do it. Because shooter A knows how to use the sights. You can't treat everybody equal. If you have LOF the enemy unit will pop-up. I don't know how you can make it simpler than that. Had it today with a Javelin team, that thing has the best sights in the business, when I put Javelin B in exactly the same spot there was no LOS or LOF while the enemy bunker was still in the same position. Don't try to change the game, to suit you. 

[Holman]

8 hours ago, landser said:

I fail to see how this applies to the mode I am suggesting

I assume you want to press a key and have the map highlight everywhere your unit can see.

But what is the "unit?" Since sighting in CMx2 is by individual members, does (for example) a selected tank highlight where the commander can see (even if the gunner can't), or does it only highlight what the gunner can see (meaning that the tank itself might be visible from places where you're told it can't see).

Likewise, an infantry squad. Does your button highlight only what a single member can see, or is it necessary for all of them to be able to see the spot?

In the end, even with such a sighting-highlight tool in place, you'll be developing an eye for what a unit can *effectively* see and not see through long practice. And that's what we're already doing now.

[Bozowans]

I think the devs prefer that there is uncertainty and confusion about what LOS actually is for a given unit. More "fog of war" that way. You can usually tell at a glance what a unit can see (and thus can be seen by the enemy) from any given area, but you can't REALLY know with 100% certainty. So you will get some unpredictability and sudden surprises, like when one of your tanks suddenly explodes from an unexpected direction, from an enemy tank firing straight through a forest that you were certain that they couldn't actually see through.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Keep in mind that the LOS tool just shows how far you can plot area fire. It does not show how far away you can spot enemy units.

[chuckdyke]

Till you a unit gets a contact icon it has not seen anything. Better people read the manual about the little bit of relative spotting. Your PC doesn't substitute for the Command and Control in the game. The radios and contact by sight or by sound play a role.  

[chuckdyke]

On 5/21/2021 at 8:47 PM, Erwin said:

HMG a few inches so that the gunner can acquire the obvious and clearly seen target.

The HMC gunner is kneeling while a rifleman sees and can fire when he is standing. Once I had this Eureka Moment the problem was solved. The camera doesn't show prone or kneeling positions. 

[landser]

On 5/21/2021 at 5:16 PM, Holman said:

I assume you want to press a key and have the map highlight everywhere your unit can see.

But what is the "unit?" Since sighting in CMx2 is by individual members, does (for example) a selected tank highlight where the commander can see (even if the gunner can't), or does it only highlight what the gunner can see (meaning that the tank itself might be visible from places where you're told it can't see).

Likewise, an infantry squad. Does your button highlight only what a single member can see, or is it necessary for all of them to be able to see the spot?

In the end, even with such a sighting-highlight tool in place, you'll be developing an eye for what a unit can *effectively* see and not see through long practice. And that's what we're already doing now.

You cannot select the gunner or the BAR man with the LOS tool either. But the LOS tool has to be dragged around to every terrain point you are interested in, which is tedious at best. A 'visible terrain mode' would give all of this info at a glance.

[Holman]

7 hours ago, landser said:

A 'visible terrain mode' would give all of this info at a glance.

Visible from whom?  That's the question.

I think you should just accept that it's difficult and that the player has to learn the complications and work with them.