Infantry useless?

[domfluff]

TIK is great when he's just reading Glantz. The graphics and presentation is excellent. Straying from that is where things become a lot more contentious.

[Lethaface]

@ArtkinNo grudge but imo he is sort of prone to logical attribution errors. Combined with 'everyone was wrong about X' type of headlines.

Anyway probably I'd agree with what @domfluff states, but I can't watch him (TIK) anymore after I watched some of the video's where he has reinvented the wheel as a new innovation.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Lethaface

[Redwolf]

On 4/19/2021 at 12:55 PM, Artkin said:

Holy crap. That pistol round may have a little more than half the diameter of that .45, but with the speed, it's hitting twice as hard... 

The .45 is an exceptionally slow round.

In fact its only current usage in Western militaries is as a silent round with silencers. That works well because the round is kept at subsonic speeds (but thanks to its large diameter it still hits pretty hard).

This is also shown in the movie Sicario where the final fighting is done by a man who carries both a 9mm without silencer and a .45 with silencer. It is my understanding that is is common in real life.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Redwolf

[chuckdyke]

16 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

The .45 is an exceptionally slow round.

My handloads were 200 grains going at 900ft/sec compared with a 115grain going at 1100 feet/second (9mm). The pistol in trained hands is accurate at 50mtrs.  Energy if you multiply weight of bullet with ft/sec is superior to the 9 mm, it also leaves a bigger wound channel. Cons: Learning curve to shoot it well is longer than the 9 mm. Colt 1911 vs the Browning HP. Both guns were designed by Browning 7-round magazine vs a 13-round magazine is an advantage hard to overlook. For a backup I don't know what I would prefer a 45 ACP or 9 mm parabellum. I would go for the 45ACP as the velocity is subsonic a lead projectile (wheel weights are ideal) is far more economical than buying jacketed projectiles. 

[Ultradave]

In practical military use, if I had to use my pistol I'm not worried about 50m accuracy. I've used both and did pistol competition when I was in the Army with .45s.  We had a chance to use the High Power quite a bit on exchange with the Canadian Parachute Regiment. I liked the HP a lot, and the extra rounds are nice. But the advantage of the .45 is that if I hit someone, he's likely going down. That may or may not be the case with the 9mm HP, where it might take a couple shots.

Biggest challenge in learning how to shoot a 1911 well, is to not fight/anticipate the recoil. Again, that's less of an issue in practical use where it's more likely to be used something like room to room, not out in the open.

Dave

[Vet 0369]

On 4/22/2021 at 1:28 AM, dbsapp said:

Overall this mission is a massive joykiller. Terrain is constructed specially to dump attackers field of view. The most awful part is the scripted Stug, coming from cover when your tanks (which can't penetrate it from the front) are going into attack, and flak, hidden in the trees. 

Unfortunately, even game manual promotes strange idea that Soviet troops were some sort of brainless numerically highly superior  hordes that fought by simply throwing at the enemy as much human bodies as necessary.

Well, I don’t know what your real life military background is, or you have any real life military experience, but honestly, it rather galls me to hear someone say that the infantry in CM is not “realistic,” meaning too brutal. I on the other hand served in the USMC and USMCR from 1969 to 1981. The last 8-years of that were as a Weapons Section Leader and as a Rifle Platoon Sargent.

You complain that the Axis defensive position was selected to make the assault as deadly as possible for the attacker. That is how you select defensive terrain in reality! You then complain that “Hollywood” depicts the Soviet soldier as a brainless beast that was simply thrown at the enemy  in vastly superior hordes. While the Soviet Soldier was largely uneducated, most were truly dedicated to saving their “Motherland,” that is how they were actually used. Of course, the fact that the Commissar political officers stationed heavy machine guns behind the lines to gun down any soldier who ran from the assault or the defensive position didn’t hurt the soldier’s resolve to continue the assault or to stay in the defensive position!

You complain that the combat is unrealistic. You are absolutely correct! It was much, much worse than depicted in CM. If you doubt me, read the accounts of combat on Peleliu where Marines and Soldiers pushed bodies in front of them to stop bullets allowing them to advance a few yards, or Okinawa where if you slipped in the mud on the Naha/Shuri line, you most likely ended up sprawled in the mud amid rotting dead and maggots!

Please try to refrain from making those types of “judgement” statements unless you have the actual experiences and knowledge to back them up.

[dbsapp]

6 hours ago, Vet 0369 said:

 

Please try to refrain from making those types of “judgement” statements unless you have the actual experiences and knowledge to back them up.

It's truly amazing that you shared your priceless experience being stationed with heavy machine gun behind the lines to gun down any soldier who ran from the assault during WW2. 

Internet experts and war veterans make us look humble and make our lives easier with useful advice. 

[Vet 0369]

2 hours ago, dbsapp said:

It's truly amazing that you shared your priceless experience being stationed with heavy machine gun behind the lines to gun down any soldier who ran from the assault during WW2. 

Internet experts and war veterans make us look humble and make our lives easier with useful advice. 

You are most welcome!

[chuckdyke]

13 hours ago, Ultradave said:

I'm not worried about 50m accuracy.

I used my 1911 for competition and 50 meters was a stage for the Australian Service Pistol Match. For the people who say the gun is not accurate. The target was the UIT Rapid Fire Target the 10 area the size of a large playing card. Granted we fitted a custom Bar-Sto Barrel and bushing the gunsmith also mirror polished everything inside. On the outside it looked like any other 1911. I bought some 8 round mags which were the same dimensions than the standard 7 round mags when you carry condition 1 you had 9 rounds. The other reason I prefer it over the HP is the mag safety in the HP the trigger in the 1911 is superior. I wouldn't hesitate to carry it if I needed one. To address the topic, if you use Soviet infantry who have no radios as you would use US troops whose armored infantry has two in the squad. You find the game goes sluggish; he should realize the tactics of the Soviet army are different for that reason. If you send scouts your leading elements must contact the scouts in person to get intel.  

Edited April 25, 2021 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, dbsapp said:

It's truly amazing that you shared your priceless experience being stationed with heavy machine gun behind the lines to gun down any soldier who ran from the assault during WW2. 

It is a myth most people know that, that wisdom comes from 'Enemy at the Gates'. What is true Soviet POWs couldn't go home till some 30 years after the war. You could only surrender with permission. The Communist Soviets were on par in regards of morals with Nazi Germany. The Gulag system was dismantled under Nikita Khrushchev for a reason 15 million people were imprisoned there, it would have been higher if the Soviet POWs were made to return. 

[Freyberg]

On 4/22/2021 at 5:28 PM, dbsapp said:

I accomplished this mission in a different way: concentrated the forces on the left side and went through under smoke cover. It produced good results. 

Overall this mission is a massive joykiller. Terrain is constructed specially to dump attackers field of view. The most awful part is the scripted Stug, coming from cover when your tanks (which can't penetrate it from the front) are going into attack, and flak, hidden in the trees. 

It was a long time ago, and I can't remember how I achieved this mission, but I remember it was extremely fun, and it certainly didn't involve human wave tactics and massive casualties. I vaguely remember doing a lot of probing, then punching through using smoke and speed, where the terrain offered a slight defilade from the supporting positions - it may have been on my left flank (I certainly remember some vicious combat involving trenches and a pillbox). I also remember the infantry doing most of the breakthrough fighting, because the German AT assets had my tanks pinned down.

It's also possible that in fixing the so-called 'HE bug', this mission is harder now than it was when I played it.

CMRT is probably my second-favourite title, after CMFI, precisely because I enjoy playing as the Soviets. You don't have to throw away your troops wastefully, but you do have get close to the enemy as quickly as practicable - the Germans have (and had) an advantage at longer ranges.

However, the Soviets were experts at stealth and speed (Accelerated Assault, as I believe it was called, although that term may have come later); and their firepower (both infantry and tanks) gets more ferocious the closer they can get to the enemy.

Playing as Soviets, I always try and use those three principles. I really enjoy the Soviets as an army to command, as they were excellent, motivated, well equipped troops, but sometimes (usually indeed) it's difficult - but the games should be difficult; the Fascist Beast didn't just roll over and die...!

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

However, the Soviets were experts at stealth and speed

Yes, I managed with infiltration and exploited the fact that HQ's can call in the mortars without radios. With the latter I don't have a problem there are countless of ways which makes this possible. The Soviet armor when the FOW has been overcome with infiltration tactics. 

[sburke]

On 4/17/2021 at 8:07 PM, dbsapp said:

In my experience it depends on the mission type. Unfortunately, the stock campaigns in Red Thunder don't provide best experience of infantry usage. Mainly, with some exceptions,  they deal with slow and painful fighting with superior forces well hidden in the bushes or buildings. 

There are several good single scenarios though.  

When I wrote opening post I was struggling with Bunkers Burning scenario. Despite it being quite challenging and interesting, I find it rather unbalanced. Finally, I achieved victory after numerous save and load attempts. 

I downloaded several community-made battles, and they are far better. 

I'd stay away from the Russian Campaign in CW if I were you.  Just sayin.

 

And for what it is worth during Beta Testing I had a glorious time with Studienka.  My infantry took a huge bite out of the Russian assault.. hiding in bushes and buildings, sneaking along culverts, scrounging PFs off their dead comrades.  CMRT isn't my favorite title, but that was one of my favorite scenarios.

Edited April 25, 2021 by sburke

[dbsapp]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

It is a myth most people know that, that wisdom comes from 'Enemy at the Gates'. What is true Soviet POWs couldn't go home till some 30 years after the war. You could only surrender with permission. The Communist Soviets were on par in regards of morals with Nazi Germany. The Gulag system was dismantled under Nikita Khrushchev for a reason 15 million people were imprisoned there, it would have been higher if the Soviet POWs were made to return. 

Oh, WW2 - the sad story about unfortunate German POW and Soviet cruelty. We are lucky that in the end private Ryan killed Stalin and Hitler, and persuaded tovarich Khrushchev to release the remaining prisoners. 

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

Oh, WW2

I talked about Soviet POWs and nationals who were denied the return to their country. One of them was like an uncle in our family. Stalin was disowned by the Soviet regime not long after he died. Yes, something like 15 million people in the Gulags who just dared not to agree with communism. You're that sensitive to the extent that Battlefront should adjust their engine so that the Soviets can win every battle. I didn't find Bunkers Burning too demanding to win it. I never talked about German POWs. Neither Germany nor the Soviet Union signed the Geneva convention. Khrushchev was an improvement on Stalin but not by much. The West never erected minefields and razor wire to stop its citizens from migrating to Eastern Europe. Communist Eastern Europe did, it is just historical fact. This is a hobby forum and we discuss wargaming, not politics and Battlefront doesn't have a political agenda. some battles to win as US are also difficult. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by chuckdyke
Added more.

[dbsapp]

32 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I talked about Soviet POWs and nationals who were denied the return to their country. One of them was like an uncle in our family.  I never talked about German POWs. 

Ok

Edited April 25, 2021 by dbsapp

[Ultradave]

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I used my 1911 for competition and 50 meters was a stage for the Australian Service Pistol Match. For the people who say the gun is not accurate. The target was the UIT Rapid Fire Target the 10 area the size of a large playing card. Granted we fitted a custom Bar-Sto Barrel and bushing the gunsmith also mirror polished everything inside. On the outside it looked like any other 1911.

Nice. Ours was military unit competition. No modifications allowed beyond giving it an extra good cleaning with standard cleaning kits. These were our issue .45s. Lots of fun, plenty of unit to unit trash talk and bragging rights.

Dave

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Ultradave said:

No modifications allowed beyond giving it an extra good cleaning with standard cleaning kits.

We had a few competitions Service Pistol was meant originally as a friendly match between the Police and the Armed services. It was biased towards the .38 Special in regards the generous reloading times. IPSC is the only way a civilian can own a centrefire pistol in Australia, my 1911 was multipurpose in that regard, it gave me years of fun. IPSC came later with spoilers. Customize beyond recognition, but we had a box in which your weapon had to fit to make it in Service Pistol competition. The 1911 I am happy to say in 20 years of shooting it never malfunctioned and it could shoot better than I was capable of. Always puzzled why they got rid of it. 

[DLaurier]

On 4/16/2021 at 10:31 AM, chuckdyke said:

I tried to edit and delete it. I just reported it to be deleted. No offense intended. 

Thankyou.
i just have a deep quirk around that