How to use BMPs? They're a funny shape!

[chuckdyke]

On 1/17/2021 at 2:53 AM, DMS said:

Ukrainian MR platoon has correct organisation in CMBS, 1 of 3 BMPs has undismountable (sorry for my English ) commander. Like in Soviet TO&E. Russian and Syrian not for some reason... So player has to use snipers or scout teams. Syrian BMPs haven't radio communications with infantry. It's a nightmare, to properly organise "red" motor rifles, so units would share intel and stay in command chain.

Played final FB. A Jeep can reach every HQ inside a minute. Often it is the fastest way to pass on Intel. Scouts spot enemy, he needs to contact his HQ. His HQ to the Company HQ the to the Bat HQ. 3 minutes gone if the radios work. Drives to HQ next turn the HQ has the contact Icons. Vehicles need to be open and 30 meters distance .

[Sgt.Squarehead]

And that's why everybody loved the Jeep. 

[THH149]

I finally found a document that discusses the limited depression of the BMP and how to use it against it in battle. 

The implied suggestion though is that the BMP will be used by an untrained dummy. If the US can come up with this suggestion then the Russians would too. A better way to use BMP would be to sit on the forward slope to the left of the BMP in the top picture and then do what the US tank is doing in the bottom picture (ie raise the gun to fire flat). Do not crest the hill in face of enemy tanks.

In fact, I'd suggest the BMP is way to close to the battle zone and should be way further back.

But, even so, being forced to use the forward slope of any hill when there is incoming armour with any chance of LOS, is not advised to say the least.

THH

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, THH149 said:

I finally found a document that discusses the limited depression of the BMP and how to use it against it in battle. 

The implied suggestion though is that the BMP will be used by an untrained dummy. If the US can come up with this suggestion then the Russians would too. A better way to use BMP would be to sit on the forward slope to the left of the BMP in the top picture and then do what the US tank is doing in the bottom picture (ie raise the gun to fire flat). Do not crest the hill in face of enemy tanks.

In fact, I'd suggest the BMP is way to close to the battle zone and should be way further back.

But, even so, being forced to use the forward slope of any hill when there is incoming armour with any chance of LOS, is not advised to say the least.

THH

If you don't move, you get done even from a hull-down.  Mortars are in a AFV's too for a reason. Radar picks up the shells and expect counter artillery inside a few minutes. One of the things CM should look at. 

[Erwin]

Isn't the instruction a bit strange?  The hull-down BMP would be perfect to ambush the M60 BEFORE the M60 got to that final position.  

If the M60 was waiting in ambush that looks like a terrible position to choose as it is only effective against only the above situation.  If the Reds had tanks or ATGM's the M60 would be in the worst position.

[Combatintman]

The teaching point is the gun depression (or lack of it) and the BMP's inability to effectively fire hull down - that is what the diagram is illustrating.  It is not illustrating the journeys each respective vehicle took to their initial positions or when they may or may not have arrived there.

[chuckdyke]

The defense against armor for a BMP is its ATGM's from the Cannon it fires rocket propelled grenades to fight armor at shorter range. The Gun Depression or lack of it is not as critical as it seems. It could be a bug in the game.

2A28 Grom - Wikipedia The Gun on the BMP. 

[MikeyD]

The drawing of the M60 on the forward slope makes me cringe. If the BMP had got a shot off he would have hit the thin turret or hull roof armor.

[Erwin]

12 hours ago, MikeyD said:

The drawing of the M60 on the forward slope makes me cringe. If the BMP had got a shot off he would have hit the thin turret or hull roof armor.

My thought as well.  I understand that the diagram is simply illustrating a limitation of the BMP.  But, to get into a position to take advantage of that limitation would seem hard and unlikely without the M60 getting KIA first.

[Lethaface]

Well if it's hard or not to take advantage of will be decided by the operator of the BMP. Basically it says that the BMP lacks gun depression so can only make limited use of hull down on reverse slope positions etc.

So facing BMP on potential hull down positions you can take advantage of this knowledge as in it has to show much of itself before it can fire on you (if you're positioned lower relatively).

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Lethaface said:

Well if it's hard or not to take advantage of will be decided by the operator of the BMP. Basically it says that the BMP lacks gun depression so can only make limited use of hull down on reverse slope positions etc.

So facing BMP on potential hull down positions you can take advantage of this knowledge as in it has to show much of itself before it can fire on you (if you're positioned lower relatively).

You may be in for a nasty surprise. The cannon is for close by and shoots something like an RPG Shell, The ATGM on top of the turret the long-distance weapon. You won't see the turret at all. Maybe in CM they don't let you do the right tactic. 

[THH149]

To add more to the puzzle of the BMP, the -5 degree elevation limit is well known and measured, so its not a glitch.

Also, the use of the BMP by the Russians themselves seems to put the BMP right up front (ie not way further back as I was  expecting), see this doctrinal use of the BMP in platoon defense - only 50 metres or so behind its squad .... 

Clearly this is not the whole story, as the range its intended to target will have a bearing too.  This squad range card suggests firing out to 1600/1700 mtrs (maybe the ATGM?) and seemingly close contact at 300mtrs or so.

But I'm not sure this helps that much without a terrain analysis too, but I'm thinking that Russians are likely to prefer to defend behind ridge lines, which could mean reverse slope positions for infantry and the bottom or forward slope for their vehicles to the rear of the infantry.

THH

 

[chuckdyke]

The close contact is for the 73 mm smooth bore gun and the ATGM for long range. This vehicle can be turret down to engage tanks at long range. CM doesn't allow this but that is not the fault of the Russian designers. T55 had Saggers ATGM's too on the turret. They know how to design AFV's. Ergonomics you must find people of around 175 cm to be suitable.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

This thread might be in the wrong forum these days.

The answer to the question "How To Use BMPs" for CM:SF2 seems to be "Reluctantly". 

Maybe they'll fare better in the new game. 

[chuckdyke]

23 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

This thread might be in the wrong forum these days.

The answer to the question "How To Use BMPs" for CM:SF2 seems to be "Reluctantly". 

Maybe they'll fare better in the new game. 

To use the Hull Down command for the weapon they are not going to use is a little over the top. Getting troops from A to B is its function, it is also capable of defending against armor. If it follows the doctrine to debus infantry behind a feature and then support, it. It's mobility and ability to swim came at a cost. 

[Lethaface]

I've heard that soon some battles to play with BMP-2s will become available for CMSF2. They are very capable against infantry, but against modern IFVs with Thermals etc they just don't have that much chance.

Indeed in CM:CW that might change!

[Lethaface]

And here it is, a good practice for anyone that likes to improve his/her BMP skills:

 

[THH149]

55 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

And here it is, a good practice for anyone that likes to improve his/her BMP skills:

 

Nice one! I must try it.

Note that I dont think that BMP 1 or 2's are bad, but like anything need to be managed mostly carefully. To me BMP 1/2s are more like APCs with improved arms, but theyre definitely not tanks or IFVs. The give away is their armour is only effective from the front against 50 cal, so if theyre "in the fight" they're too close.

Thats not unusual or disappointing, For instance the Shermans couldnt take on the Panther frontally but the Sherman wasnt binned, just something to be managed.

Thanks

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'd recommend that campaign too.....I'm thoroughly enjoying it. 

56 minutes ago, THH149 said:

Note that I dont think that BMP 1 or 2's are bad, but like anything need to be managed mostly carefully. To me BMP 1/2s are more like APCs with improved arms, but theyre definitely not tanks or IFVs.

I suspect your opinion of them will change considerably once you have used them in CM:CW.....I can't wait! 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[THH149]

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I'd recommend that campaign too.....I'm thoroughly enjoying it. 

I suspect your opinion of them will change considerably once you have used them in CM:CW.....I can't wait! 

I'm so excited by that project, I can't wait for CM:CW! And I feel i've hardly touched BS and SF2!!

[The_MonkeyKing]

BMP-2 are good (for the money). When used with area fire commands. Infantry finds the enemy, BMP-2 destroys the enemy by keyholing/peaking/hulldown with sort exposure time. 

[Lethaface]

7 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

BMP-2 are good (for the money). When used with area fire commands. Infantry finds the enemy, BMP-2 destroys the enemy by keyholing/peaking/hulldown with sort exposure time. 

Exactly my opinion. They are quite fast as well, have some offensive smoke capabilities and can spot reasonably with an extra team in it. 

Of course against IFVs/Tanks with FLIR optics for both gunner/commander, it will have a hard time. But in the way you describe they can still be very useful to support infantry.

[The_MonkeyKing]

31 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Exactly my opinion. They are quite fast as well, have some offensive smoke capabilities and can spot reasonably with an extra team in it. 

Of course against IFVs/Tanks with FLIR optics for both gunner/commander, it will have a hard time. But in the way you describe they can still be very useful to support infantry.

Indeed.

Also when leap frogging the infantry are always the forward ones and BMPs are the ones leaping second.

This ensures were high readiness for any counter attacks (BMPs work very well in defense) and also the before mentioned fire support role.

Very important is also when you see them pesky spotting rounds falling you have your comfy BMPs close by to load up.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Also when leap frogging the infantry are always the forward ones and BMPs are the ones leaping second.

This can be bloody dangerous through woods.....Whenever possible I've taken to moving my BMPs and dismounts together, with the infantry about a tile behind, to prevent the BMPs from laying waste to their own men if a squabble breaks out.

One of my main problems while playing the first mission of Al-Hell was to keep my BMPs more or less in contact so they could support their dismounts, without putting the latter in their line of fire.

[The_MonkeyKing]

I wouldn't shoot over my of infantry in the woods. I try to leave fields of fire free for the BMPs

And woods are a bad place to be. Not healthy for anybody involved. Scout, if hostiles arty and bypass. If not possible to bypass then tight formation of infantry and IFV after artillery.

like this:
-------------enemy-----------
inf-------inf-------inf---------
----bmp-----bmp-----bmp---
-------------------------------