How to use BMPs? They're a funny shape!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

My formation is similar but positions are reversed.

[The_MonkeyKing]

58 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

My formation is similar but positions are reversed.

I would think you would lose a lot of BMPs this way. BMP never get the first spot and the infantry would be more expendable.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Not as a rule, remember my infantry are only a tile or so behind and there's always some variation, this isn't a hard and fast rule, it's what I tend to do when the going is difficult and trees are an issue (it became a common practice after my own BMPs caused 50% of my casualties in one of the scenarios from the CM:BS campaign 'Mountains Of Allah').

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Here's a couple of mine doing their best:

As you can see a couple of infantry units settled down just in front of the BMPs (my BMPs are spotting before the infantry as most of them have command elements aboard (they're also marginally taller I guess).....The BMPs will edge forward, just to make me feel safer about targets popping up on my flanks.

[Lethaface]

On 2/22/2021 at 10:04 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Here's a couple of mine doing their best:

As you can see a couple of infantry units settled down just in front of the BMPs (my BMPs are spotting before the infantry as most of them have command elements aboard (they're also marginally taller I guess).....The BMPs will edge forward, just to make me feel safer about targets popping up on my flanks.

Don't you have any scout teams more forward? In this screen the hill seems to offer a great hull down position for the BMP-2s, but usually I'll keep them back 50m at least or further. All depends of course, but in general they provide fires for me and don't function as point units. I try to keep m close so they can provide fires fast, but if possible far enough so infantry doesn't suffer if it goes boom 

[chuckdyke]

On 2/23/2021 at 5:04 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Here's a couple of mine doing their best:

As you can see a couple of infantry units settled down just in front of the BMPs (my BMPs are spotting before the infantry as most of them have command elements aboard (they're also marginally taller I guess).....The BMPs will edge forward, just to make me feel safer about targets popping up on my flanks.

In the game can you operate their ATGM's turret down? Also, to a more limited extend the 73 mm low velocity gun should be able from a proper hull down the gun I imagine doesn't need an excessive gun depression. I assume the designers were competent and knew what they were doing.  

[Lethaface]

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

In the game can you operate their ATGM's turret down? Also, to a more limited extend the 73 mm low velocity gun should be able from a proper hull down the gun I imagine doesn't need an excessive gun depression. I assume the designers were competent and knew what they were doing.  

These are BMP-2's.

[chuckdyke]

yes it seems that one has a flat firing cannon. Better make sure you work out the protocol how to use them. 

[Lethaface]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

yes it seems that one has a flat firing cannon. Better make sure you work out the protocol how to use them. 

Try the campaign I'd say!

My protocol is: use them to fire on the enemy as much as possible, while preventing them from doing exploding things themselves .

And BMP-2 with it's 30mm autocannon is much more useful compared to the BMP-1, imo. But still the BMP-2 has no business duking it out with most Blue IFVs in CMSF2, if only/mainly because they usually feature FLIR optics which the BMP-2 does not. It's thin armor doesn't help either.
However used carefully they can sure harm BLUE force vehicles. While they shine in supporting the infantry in urban fighting:

1 Keep BMP-2 hidden behind buildings. 2 Identify enemy infantry position. 3 Maneuver to good engagement position if necessary. 4 Shoot and scoot from behind building for 10-15 sec while keeping out of handheld AT weapons range (RPG/PzFaust 3/etc), which is 200-500m depending on the type of AT weapon. 

5 look at red crosses forming inside the targeted building, while keeping up the fire. After you are satisfied, it is now ready for infantry to close in.

[chuckdyke]

@Lethaface your shoot, and scoot method is different from mine. Each to his own I have never played as Red my human opponent likes that role on Hotseat for some reason. By the way we are back playing WW 2 again I find playing as Western Allies more challenging. 

[Lethaface]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

@Lethaface your shoot, and scoot method is different from mine. Each to his own I have never played as Red my human opponent likes that role on Hotseat for some reason. By the way we are back playing WW 2 again I find playing as Western Allies more challenging. 

in what way is yours different?

Against BLUE forces and in modern (especially if there are Javelins around), it helps to limit exposure to the bare minimum. But in general I think it's wise to reposition asap after firing. The exact timing etc should differ per the situational needs.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

16 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Don't you have any scout teams more forward?

Yes, but not in front of the BMPs.....Most are in the woods on the right flank of the units in the image, but there's a not insignificant force sneaking along to their left too, with another BMP attached. 

4 hours ago, Lethaface said:

My protocol is: use them to fire on the enemy as much as possible, while preventing them from doing exploding things themselves .

What a remarkable coincidence.....That's the very same plan I use! 

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Lethaface said:

in what way is yours different?

Against BLUE forces and in modern (especially if there are Javelins around), it helps to limit exposure to the bare minimum. But in general I think it's wise to reposition asap after firing. The exact timing etc should differ per the situational needs.

Always assume somebody is aiming at you at you and always assume you have been observed and adjust your tactics accordingly. I will post some screenshots of that principle.

[THH149]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:14 AM, The_MonkeyKing said:

I wouldn't shoot over my of infantry in the woods. I try to leave fields of fire free for the BMPs

And woods are a bad place to be. Not healthy for anybody involved. Scout, if hostiles arty and bypass. If not possible to bypass then tight formation of infantry and IFV after artillery.

like this:
-------------enemy-----------
inf-------inf-------inf---------
----bmp-----bmp-----bmp---
-------------------------------

I think thats the doctrine - the dismounts go the right and left in front of the BMP - the doctrine is silent mostly on distances involved and of course its all situational. I'd like to see a vid of someone using BMPs and dismounts well.  

[THH149]

11 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I have never played as Red

Red is much bigger challenge, ppl should love Red for that reason (Blue is just a Death Star).

[THH149]

7 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Yes, but not in front of the BMPs.....Most are in the woods on the right flank of the units in the image,

This is important ... get eyes on with the smallest unit possible and then coordinate your own targetting.  I think the BMP is to valuable to be hit while doing the spotting. But of course there could be reasons to do so ...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'll let you know if anyone gets killed.....So far it's only them. 

A bunch of total mugs ran straight into my sneaking dudes on the left.....Might have gone quite badly for us if it hadn't been for that BMP. 

It didn't see them until the dumb-asses took a potshot at one of my dudes.....At which point it tore them to shreds! 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[chuckdyke]

Just now, THH149 said:

Red is much bigger challenge, ppl should love Red for that reason (Blue is just a Death Star).

My opponent plays Red, and you don't know our house rules when we play on Hotseat. The AI mode is sandbox mode good to practice tactics. The editor of any game has only one turn against you, you're supposed to win. Against the AI read the script as they have been designed to give you a game. If you deviate from it you may not activate the triggers as intended. I done that in the past when I didn't know any better. Yes without opposition I could drive straight to my objective. Now they were boring games. Replay is a little better. Parameters up to your house rules. Losing an Abrams or Challenger can give Red a tactical Victory. Red can operate in a friendly Urban environment. C2 doesn't need to apply where everybody has a cell phone with a Facebook account. Camera settings according Key-Terrain. Red Occupies a High Rise Building he gets Camera Setting 4, I have to fight for it. The thing is to have fun.  

[THH149]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

you don't know our house rules when we play on Hotseat.

I'm not being critical, just encouraging, and your house rules looks interesting : its best to have fun no matter what.

Some scenarios designers arn't looking to produce a H2H 'game" where both sides have a shot at a victory (and so a basic element to having fun) but are intending to replicate the french at agincourt though in a SF2 setting (ie a simulation).

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, THH149 said:

I'm not being critical, just encouraging, and your house rules looks interesting : its best to have fun no matter what.

Some scenarios designers arn't looking to produce a H2H 'game" where both sides have a shot at a victory (and so a basic element to having fun) but are intending to replicate the french at agincourt though in a SF2 setting (ie a simulation).

Fair enough the game encourages customization. Look at the editor a very skillful individual sets up a game. Basically, he plays only one turn against you. For them, the game is the editor and that's where they stop. CM needs to improve on the online games. Large Scenarios are out they prefer small engagements and then you look at 30 days to complete one game. The other options are disable some security features to play through ports. We enjoy the large Master Maps with not too many units. You have room to move. Play 'Blue' and imagine having some nosy SBS or ABC journalist breathing down your neck. Include them in your parameters, dropping pamphlets warning the civilians you going to attack. Air Support? The UN needs to authorize Airstrikes. It is not as easy to win as Blue as you imagine. H2H games are easy you don't need to employ triggers up to the human player how units move. Just make an interesting map. No shortage in Australia use Google Earth and repaint with Russian and Arabic names or whatever you look at 8 km² at the most. Use Camera Position 4 conditional. Say when you have air support Position 3 for Highrise buildings. Just ideas to play with. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Lethaface]

12 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Always assume somebody is aiming at you at you and always assume you have been observed and adjust your tactics accordingly. I will post some screenshots of that principle.

Well that's not different in my approach

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Lethaface said:

Well that's not different in my approach

It is called 'common sense' in Dutch 'het gezonde verstand'.

[Lethaface]

Just now, chuckdyke said:

It is called 'common sense' in Dutch 'het gezonde verstand'.

I call it 'uncommon sense'

[chuckdyke]

21 hours ago, Lethaface said:

in what way is yours different?

Against BLUE forces and in modern (especially if there are Javelins around), it helps to limit exposure to the bare minimum. But in general I think it's wise to reposition asap after firing. The exact timing etc should differ per the situational needs.

I suspect I am under surveillance by ATGM's and do a recon by fire on the house. Fast 4X4 Vehicles are the best for this. There *Spoiler* is a spy in that building (I didn't know that). No 15 second bursts he will change fire at every waypoint. By trial and error, I know the other guy is too slow to react. Scimitars are excellent for this. If there are ATGM's they often give their positions away. Start from cover and end up under cover. With continues fire. Your TechAI will do the right thing nice to watch the short bursts of fire. 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by chuckdyke
Incomplete.

[Lethaface]

8 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I suspect I am under surveillance by ATGM's and do a recon by fire on the house. Fast 4X4 Vehicles are the best for this. There *Spoiler* is a spy in that building (I didn't know that). No 15 second bursts he will change fire at every waypoint. By trial and error, I know the other guy is too slow to react. Scimitars are excellent for this. If there are ATGM's they often give their positions away. Start from cover and end up under cover. 

 

I'd never send a vehicle by itself on a long move through unknown / not covered terrain (especially not an open Jeep which has 0 protection against small arms).
But as part of a larger maneuver, yes it's always good to be shooting at suspected locations while moving and ending up in cover.
However I thought we were talking about shoot & scoot in urban terrain with BMP-2s

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Lethaface