v2.04 AI IEDs not working

[Cpl Steiner]

*** Potential Spoilers ***

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am convinced IED's do not work in version 2.04. Example: Start Abu Susah scenario as US and fast move a Stryker down the left flank along the road into the ville. It will get shot up but if you're lucky at the end of the turn you can cease fire and see that it drove straight over an activated IED within LOS of the spotter. I actually found IEDs aren't working in the second mission of the German campaign. I must have driven 16+ vehicles over 2 activated IEDs in LOS of a non-panicked spotter on the tarmac road down the right flank. I was actually disappointed to discover this when the AI surrendered, as it would have made for a more fun mission getting owned by the AI for that reckless flanking maneuver. Has anyone seen the AI successfully detonate an IED in v2.04?

Edited November 22, 2020 by Cpl Steiner

[rocketman]

Potential spoilers********************************************************

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just finished the Police Station attack scenario in the British campaign and was surprised to see many unused IEDs and spies alive in places that I passed by. Not one set off.

I have saves if anyone is interested.

Edited November 22, 2020 by rocketman

[Erwin]

If this gets confirmed I will add it to the list of things that should be addressed (eventually):

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position.

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Several vehicles (including the M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that in the scenario am playing right now it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

  

Edited November 22, 2020 by Erwin

[Cpl Steiner]

OK, well, it seems I am mistaken. I created a very simple scenario in the editor - completely flat and barren landscape, two US Humvees, 1 UNCON IED spotter with various IEDs along the road - and the spotter detonated the IEDs just fine. I now believe some scenarios may have the spotter badly positioned with no LOS to the IEDs.

[Gkenny]

Some IEDs also have a random chance to fail to detonate I believe as well - so everything could be perfectly set up and RNG decides that the explosive is a dud. 

[Combatintman]

2 hours ago, Cpl Steiner said:

OK, well, it seems I am mistaken. I created a very simple scenario in the editor - completely flat and barren landscape, two US Humvees, 1 UNCON IED spotter with various IEDs along the road - and the spotter detonated the IEDs just fine. I now believe some scenarios may have the spotter badly positioned with no LOS to the IEDs.

Yes that is entirely possible if the scenario designer does not fully grasp how IEDs work.  The other explanation is that the spotter is positioned in such a way that they either get suppressed or zapped before they are able to trigger a device.  I often employ IEDs in my scenarios and they rarely trigger because player actions create the conditions (suppression/zapping/obscuration) in which they do not trigger.  The mere mention of them in the scenario briefing is enough to influence player behaviour through the adoption of appropriate schemes of manoeuvre or TTPs to negate them.  For those muppets that don't read briefings or adopt suitable countermeasures then they stand a good chance of getting given the good news.

[chuckdyke]

You need to play in RTS and H&H mode. We really need something in WeGo against the AI.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

If this gets confirmed I will add it to the list of things that should be addressed (eventually):

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position.

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Several vehicles (including the M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that in the scenario am playing right now it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

  

 

21 hours ago, Cpl Steiner said:

*** Potential Spoilers ***

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am convinced IED's do not work in version 2.04. Example: Start Abu Susah scenario as US and fast move a Stryker down the left flank along the road into the ville. It will get shot up but if you're lucky at the end of the turn you can cease fire and see that it drove straight over an activated IED within LOS of the spotter. I actually found IEDs aren't working in the second mission of the German campaign. I must have driven 16+ vehicles over 2 activated IEDs in LOS of a non-panicked spotter on the tarmac road down the right flank. I was actually disappointed to discover this when the AI surrendered, as it would have made for a more fun mission getting owned by the AI for that reckless flanking maneuver. Has anyone seen the AI successfully detonate an IED in v2.04?

 

IED don't work in WeGo against the AI, you need a human player in RTS who pauses the game and triggers the device at the precise moment. They shouldn't be included in a Campaign better to substitute a mine.  

[Erwin]

23 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

IED don't work in WeGo against the AI, you need a human player in RTS who pauses the game and triggers the device at the precise moment. They shouldn't be included in a Campaign better to substitute a mine.  

You checked this out and are sure about this??

[Zveroboy1]

I have this small basic scenario I made before to test various IED related tactics. I just loaded it and played it versus the red AI in scenario author test mode. It seemed to work fine for me.

 

[Combatintman]

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

You checked this out and are sure about this??

No he's not judging by tests run by others and shown on this thread.  IEDs are always variable - some go off, some don't and this is reflective of real conditions.

[domfluff]

As always with IEDs, I think it's useful to consider the manual's failure rate as a best-case scenario.

The triggerman still has to spot the target, not be obscured by dust, not be suppressed, not be distracted by a passing kitten, whatever. I imagine if you ran a thousand tests, the failure rate would be significantly higher than stated.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

You checked this out and are sure about this??

Before you start a battle there are recommended modes of play. Sometimes it is H&H RTS recommended and this is the reason. I rarely play on RTS and never seen an IED going off on WeGo. Kind regards. 

[FlemFire]

When running tests, you should also test things like running guys by IEDs with the spotters untouched; running by with the spotters at least suppressed/pinned 1x; running by with say another group in the spotter's vicinity killed off by attackers. See if anything causes the AI to drop the 'ball' in regards to activating IEDs; setup an AI plan adjacent to IED use. Kinda curious if car bombs are also used by AI.

Edit: two scenarios that have heavy IED use if you wanted to test,

Abu Susah SF2

The Shores of Tripoli

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Khalerick

[rocketman]

Just throwing a wild thought out there: could there be issues with scenarios updated from SF1 to SF2 when it comes to things like IEDs and bombs? There have been reports of bombs dropped by airstrikes that never land, nor is a sound heard. I have had that in both the British and German campaigns. Did a quick test a while ago and it worked. Thing is a test in the editor is always something new and not updated from SF1. Will do more tests on the bomb thing some time in the future.

Any reactions from the QB crowd out there, have you seen these things?

[hypeman]

I may be late to the party here but I have found that the IED triggerman cannot be hiding and activate the IED at the same time. That is to say that even with proper LOS and being within range of the IED, if the triggerman is hiding, he will not detonate the explosive.

[Cpl Steiner]

In the second mission of the German campaign the triggerman was not suppressed as I didn't know he was even there until the end of the scenario. I also played this mission as WEGO but the test mission I posted the image of above was also WEGO vs. the AI.

Regarding failure rate, It would help immensely if at the end of the scenario the text for the EID didn't show "(Activated)" but rather something like "(Dud)".

I would be interested in anyone else's experience of the 2nd Mission of the German campaign, played WEGO. It's not hard to get to mission 2 to try it out (and mission 1 is a lot of fun getting there).

[THH149]

Some weeks ago I wanted clarification on how IEDs worked and with the excellent feedback I created two Quick Battles (one city, one desert) with about 30 IEDs each (10 radio, 10 Cellphone, 10 wired). In these QB's I play as Red with IEDs, so I can control more variables, and the QB's are so tight I know the Blue Force will cross many of the IEDs (BTW Red force has no chance so the Blue Force will cross the IED lines).

After multiple playings of both, I've never seen an IED malfunction (I believe it would be noted in the trigger man's display). Rather I've found that LOS (which needs to be checked at setup by using the Target command) is quirky and needs to be much closer than expected (don't guess this as a Triggerman) and suppression are much more important.

Also, the target unit has to practically pixel perfect on the IED to have the Triggerman hit it (I've seen whole squads almost literally walk right by Huge IEDs and they not go off.

The range of each IED is also quite different too - wired is much much shorter than radio - and needs to be taken into account by scenario designers.

I find it very hard for a Triggerman to set off his IED if he starts out of LOS and then moves into LOS of the IED - sometimes dies, sometimes forgets where he put the IED. Much more reliable to start the IED in LOS of the fella (or vice versa).

The hole the IED makes is not an indication of the needed position of the target vs the IED.

Sometimes I think the designer believes the IEDs will work like AT mines, but they dont. I'd prefer to be able place AT mines at start in some games.

THH

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by THH149

[Combatintman]

18 minutes ago, THH149 said:

Some weeks ago I wanted clarification on how IEDs worked and with the excellent feedback I created two Quick Battles (one city, one desert) with about 30 IEDs each (10 radio, 10 Cellphone, 10 wired). In these QB's I play as Red with IEDs, so I can control more variables, and the QB's are so tight I know the Blue Force will cross many of the IEDs (BTW Red force has no chance so the Blue Force will cross the IED lines).

After multiple playings of both, I've never seen an IED malfunction (I believe it would be noted in the trigger man's display). Rather I've found that LOS (which needs to be checked at setup by using the Target command) is quirky and needs to be much closer than expected (don't guess this as a Triggerman) and suppression are much more important.

Also, the target unit has to practically pixel perfect on the IED to have the Triggerman hit it (I've seen whole squads almost literally walk right by Huge IEDs and they not go off.

The range of each IED is also quite different too - wired is much much shorter than radio - and needs to be taken into account by scenario designers.

I find it very hard for a Triggerman to set off his IED if he starts out of LOS and then moves into LOS of the IED - sometimes dies, sometimes forgets where he put the IED. Much more reliable to start the IED in LOS of the fella (or vice versa).

The hole the IED makes is not an indication of the needed position of the target vs the IED.

Sometimes I think the designer believes the IEDs will work like AT mines, but they dont. I'd prefer to be able place AT mines at start in some games.

THH

 

Why not pick AT mines instead of IEDs in the editor then - unless of course you talking about situations where you are playing scenarios made by other folks and in which case ignore my comment.

[THH149]

1 minute ago, Combatintman said:

Why not pick AT mines instead of IEDs in the editor then - unless of course you talking about situations where you are playing scenarios made by other folks and in which case ignore my comment.

Good point, I hadn't got around to playtest a QB using AT mines as an alternative. But I was thinking about other scenarios where I've seen AT mines and thought they were more useful, but perhaps less thematic in some circumstances.

[Combatintman]

20 minutes ago, THH149 said:

Good point, I hadn't got around to playtest a QB using AT mines as an alternative. But I was thinking about other scenarios where I've seen AT mines and thought they were more useful, but perhaps less thematic in some circumstances.

In generic terms a pressure plate IED is effectively what most people understand a mine to be (eg you walk/drive over it and it goes bang).  All you need to do is to pick mines in the unit editor and call them IEDs in the scenario briefing.

[domfluff]

There is also the IED mine in CMSF - it works like the other minefields, but it's a single, massive explosion (with a 0% failure rate, or at least as much as mines can fail).

[Combatintman]

45 minutes ago, domfluff said:

There is also the IED mine in CMSF - it works like the other minefields, but it's a single, massive explosion (with a 0% failure rate, or at least as much as mines can fail).

Correct, I'd forgotten that - probably because I don't use them much.  I think this is because most real IEDs are similar to the effects that we see associated with AP and AT mines rather than the whopping great ones, which seem to be the inspiration for some of the IEDs in game, and make the front pages of the newspaper.

[chuckdyke]

In turn-based mode the AI doesn't get the timing right in RTS you can pause and let the triggerman do his job. The developers need to improve the AI in regards IED. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:34 PM, Combatintman said:

I often employ IEDs in my scenarios and they rarely trigger because player actions create the conditions (suppression/zapping/obscuration) in which they do not trigger.

I'm fond of them too.....But mine (almost) always go off:

The secret to almost guaranteed detonation is to stack your IEDs in pairs.....Then ensure that two or more triggermen have LOS to each pair.  This minimises the small chance of trigger failure and as one charge will always set off the other, both would have to be a dud for it to fail.  Test it out and see, it enhances their lethality significantly.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead