Bulletpoint Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 I've realised the game lets me spot and shoot quite well through pretty thick patches of pine trees. But regular leafy trees block LOS quite well, even though they don't have any leaves in winter. Shouldn't it be the other way around? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 The problem is that there can often be a pixel sized hole thru the densest woods that the AI will be able to shoot thru even tho' it's invisible to the human eye. It's one of those "Not WYSIWYG" situations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Those tall pine trees can be considered pretty much telephone polls with branches starting halfway up the top. You'll get more cover from the 'hvy forest' terrain tile its sitting on than from the tree itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Pine and Silver Birch have slender trunks compared to Oak, Beech etc so being able to see further into a wood made up of them makes sense.to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy56 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Erwin said: "Not WYSIWYG" Why do people have to have an acronym for everything? Edited February 2, 2019 by Frenchy56 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Possibly for the same reason that they allow their mobiles do their thinking for them. So they don't have to know the difference between "to" and "too". Or, "there", "their" or "they're". But, what do I know about anything, I'm 400 years old. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IICptMillerII Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Ya know, the game is more fun if you actually play it instead of spending years nitpicking every tiny little thing 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) WYSIWYG has been around longer than mobile phones. If you have played computer simulations for more than 20 years, you know what it means. Edited February 3, 2019 by Thewood1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 1 minute ago, IICptMillerII said: Ya know, the game is more fun if you actually play it instead of spending years nitpicking every tiny little thing Not just complaining about it, but now on to how people talk about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Not everyone knows all the common abbreviations or jargon. Especially someone who does not speak English as thier first language. So, how about we just fill people in.. WYSIWYG means what you see is what you get. 3 hours ago, MikeyD said: Those tall pine trees can be considered pretty much telephone polls with branches starting halfway up the top. You'll get more cover from the 'hvy forest' terrain tile its sitting on than from the tree itself. ^^^ that pretty much sums it up. Without additional light or heavy forest the terrain is like a manicured lawn with trees. So. yeah not mush concealment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) Because google exists for a reason. With this guys approach, I felt I would go the extra mile, using google... https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/WYSIWYG-what-you-see-is-what-you-get Edited February 3, 2019 by Thewood1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, IanL said: Not everyone knows all the common abbreviations or jargon. Especially someone who does not speak English as thier first language. The ironic thing is that I learned that phrase back in 2007 CMSF1 days from BF site. I thought I was the only one who didn't know what it meant back then. Edited February 3, 2019 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 This same conversation popped up on the Steel Beasts a few months ago. Same issue in that the AI can see through even the smallest pinhole of foliage and react something miles away on the other side. CM tends to have a much better spotting model at the unit level over SB, but this issue seems exactly the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Sometimes it benefits you, the player, and sometimes it benefits the AI (or oppo player). Research indicates that for unclear reasons it's only the latter case when one tends to blow a fuse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 13 hours ago, MikeyD said: Well, it can look both ways. The problem is that in game, it looks like the one on the left, and plays like the one on the right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 Also maybe I should have clarified that I'm talking about tanks shooting through the upper part of the pines, where it looks like they would block LOS very effectively... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said: Well, it can look both ways. The problem is that in game, it looks like the one on the left, and plays like the one on the right. I didn't have my coffee before writing that. What I meant was that the upper part of the pines look dense like the pic on the left, but what seems like very dense foliage can be spotted through. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Its quite simple: trees are not to be trusted in this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAhr14xdKGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ygw270QIk Trees are simply magic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, holoween said: Its quite simple: trees are not to be trusted in this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAhr14xdKGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ygw270QIk Trees are simply magic. They are not magic, but they are much more abstracted than most people realise. We see individual trees, but the engine sees "tree tiles of a certain density". In your video, your shell is assumed to have hit some tree, even though it doesn't look like it actually hits anything. This abstraction generally works ok, but there's often a mismatch between what the human player sees (a couple of trees, no big deal) and what the game sees (a tree tile with 3 trees on it = very heavy density forest). So, in your case, you see something that looks like trees shouldn't be an obstacle, but they are. In my example, I'm seeing something that graphically looks like it should block all LOS, but it doesn't. Edited February 4, 2019 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: They are not magic, but they are much more abstracted than most people realise. We see individual trees, but the engine sees "tree tiles of a certain density". In your video, your shell is assumed to have hit some tree, even though it doesn't look like it actually hits anything. As far as i can tell Its a simple save roll if your vehicle is near trees hence magic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: This abstraction generally works ok, but there's often a mismatch between what the human player sees (a couple of trees, no big deal) and what the game sees (a tree tile with 3 trees on it = very heavy density forest). So, in your case, you see something that looks like trees shouldn't be an obstacle, but they are. In my example, I'm seeing something that graphically looks like it should block all LOS, but it doesn't. To elaborate the issue is that individual trees sometimes matter for example for attack ground targets and for actually shooting through. this leads to the situations i made clips of where aparently there is clear line of fire but my shot gets intercepted by something but the return shot doesnt. especially noticable in the first one where a 90mm ap shot gets absorbed but the return 105mm heat shot works just fine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, holoween said: To elaborate the issue is that individual trees sometimes matter for example for attack ground targets and for actually shooting through. this leads to the situations i made clips of where aparently there is clear line of fire but my shot gets intercepted by something but the return shot doesnt. especially noticable in the first one where a 90mm ap shot gets absorbed but the return 105mm heat shot works just fine. I understand what you're saying, but I've just accepted that trees are abstracted/magic as a limitation of the engine. The important bit to me is if the abstraction makes sense compared to what the graphics show. I think it should be possible to eyeball a situation and get a pretty good result. With the pine trees, I'm forced to slowly probe around for LOS using the target tool. Not very fun, and despite what some might think, I actually do play these games for fun 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: I think it should be possible to eyeball a situation and get a pretty good result. Agred but with trees it isnt the case no matter how you look at them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinaldi Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 10 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: I think it should be possible to eyeball a situation and get a pretty good result. It already is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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