Vehicle Immobilization

[Swervin11b]

Quite a few times I’ve had tracked vehicles go down to immobilization, sometimes at critical junctures. I’m assuming they’ve thrown track since they’re not under fire. 

Is there anyway to avoid it? As in, is this a kind of random occurrence programmed in or is it due to terrain? Bogging down in wet terrain is common sense, but the woods generally look the same unless I’m missing something. 

Is a particular movement type through rough terrain avoid it?

Is there anything you can do once it’s immobilized? 

I try to keep my vehicles in open terrain as much possible but sometimes you have to go through rough stuff. It can lose a battle so I figured I’d learn about how the game deals with the matter. 

One would hope that Pvt Joe Snuffy didn’t just forget to measure track tension and add grease to the track tensioner during his PMCS

[IICptMillerII]

There isn't anything you can do to fix a vehicle once it becomes immobilized. Certain terrain is much more likely to bog/immobilize a vehicle, such as mud. 

There have been a few threads that have addressed movement speed and bog chance, and off the top of my head I think the consensus that was reached was that speed does not effect bog chance, though I might be wrong. 

I also recall that the game simulates ground being torn up by vehicles repeatedly crossing over it. So if you have a field that a bunch of tanks have rolled over, the bog chance increases. Not entirely sure if that is the case, though I have seen effects in the game enough to think it is. 

There is also a bit of randomness thrown in. It's possible to bog/immobilize on a road, though the chance is low. This is to simulate a track being thrown for any number of reasons, or a tire going flat, or an axle breaking, etc. Murphy's law is a constant after all. 

[Swervin11b]

Thanks! Figured it might have been discussed before. (I’ll try to search better next time.)

Having it random is realistic. Pivoting on soft ground was terrible for throwing track. Good to know that overuse of the ground can make it soft. I wouldn’t have thought the game engine would account for that. 

I doubt the crew is very good infantry, so I’ll probably just leave them in safety 

[IICptMillerII]

I tend to pull crewmen who have abandoned their vehicles far away from combat. Partly because they do not perform well in a firefight, and partly because it isn't realistic to use them as infantry. 

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, Swervin11b said:

Good to know that overuse of the ground can make it soft. I wouldn’t have thought the game engine would account for that. 

Pretty sure it doesn't.

It's the type of terrain multiplied by the ground conditions. The wetter, the worse. When the ground is very dry, you can even cross mud patches without too much worry. When the ground conditions are muddy, even regular ground starts to cause frequent bogging and immobilization.

[A Canadian Cat]

5 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Pretty sure it doesn't.

It's the type of terrain multiplied by the ground conditions. The wetter, the worse. When the ground is very dry, you can even cross mud patches without too much worry. When the ground conditions are muddy, even regular ground starts to cause frequent bogging and immobilization.

This is more correct. ^^^

If it is raining the ground condition can change - getting wetter.

Crushing obstacles such as fences or wire degrades track condition which makes bogging more likely.

[Michael Emrys]

25 minutes ago, IanL said:

Crushing obstacles such as fences or wire degrades track condition which makes bogging more likely.

Further to that, if I have a platoon of tanks for instance that must cross a series of fences, I try to rotate which one is doing the cross first and have the rest follow in his tracks. That way, only the first is apt to suffer any degradation of tread in that crossing. Then when the next fence must be crossed, another vehicle will take the lead and be absorbing the damage. That way, the damage won't be accumulating in one vehicle to the point where immobilization becomes likely.

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

13 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Further to that, if I have a platoon of tanks for instance that must cross a series of fences, I try to rotate which one is doing the cross first and have the rest follow in his tracks. That way, only the first is apt to suffer any degradation of tread in that crossing. Then when the next fence must be crossed, another vehicle will take the lead and be absorbing the damage. That way, the damage won't be accumulating in one vehicle to the point where immobilization becomes likely.

Michael

That makes some sense in the game, but I think it's a bit silly that flimsy countryside fences cause track degradation to a tank in the first place. Tank tracks are not invulnerable, but they are not made of glass either.

I don't think any tank commander in history ever rotated his point tanks because they were going through old wooden fences around fields.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The issue is particularly irritating with wheeled APCs (Stryker/BTR etc.) in CM:BS.....Tyre damage was a major impediment to routing in the earliest iterations of @MOS:96B2P's TOC scenario.  

It' a good idea, I just think it's a bit 'strong' in game, or perhaps the chance of damage is too high?

[IICptMillerII]

Concerning track degradation: it is absolutely realistic for tracks/wheels to be damaged by crossing through fences and the like. In reality, concertina wire is considered an anti-tank obstacle that tracked vehicles are not supposed to cross unless they absolutely have to. The reason is essentially that the wiring and materials that forms the obstacle get caught up in the wheels/treads/bogey wheels/etc. It is also easy to throw a track or have any other number of technical failures occur. Further, even if no immediate damage occurs, the material stuck up in the wheel/tread mechanics have to be manually removed. It's a big mess

The stryker is also a bit temperamental when it comes to its wheels. As in, it seems to enjoy rupturing them so much that it might as well be a feature of the vehicle. Its not uncommon on a road march for a stryker unit to go through its entire stock of replacement tires, or at least a significant portion of them. Part of the reason for this is the complex hydraulic system used to raise and lower the truck itself.

All of this is to say, both wheeled and tracked vehicles are more vulnerable to obstacles than one might initially think. Movies constantly showing tanks driving through 10 foot high brick walls at full speed, among other things certainly do not help with the perception. 

[Swervin11b]

I can confirm this. Concertina wire wrapped up in tracks is a huge mess. I had to clear it out a couple of times and it took a long, long time and could easily injure the soldiers clearing it. (Can confirm that too unfortunately)  

If the construction material of a wall can be crushed, though, it’s less of a concern. Cinderblocks weren’t really a hindrance. Still, if at all possible you could use weapons systems to breach walls as opposed to busting through. 

As far as the game goes,  the terrain I’ve encountered that’s most apt to throw track are tree lines and woods, oddly. Reading through here has given me a fair understanding of their vulnerability, though, I’ll take better care to avoid  anything but open ground if I can. 

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Further to that, if I have a platoon of tanks for instance that must cross a series of fences, I try to rotate which one is doing the cross first and have the rest follow in his tracks

Yep, same

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

but I think it's a bit silly that flimsy countryside fences cause track degradation to a tank in the first place.

We have had tankers post on the forum and say that they are cautious about how much stuff the crush because of the risk to their track integrity.

[StieliAlpha]

14 hours ago, Swervin11b said:

Thanks! Figured it might have been discussed before. (I’ll try to search better next time.)

Having it random is realistic. Pivoting on soft ground was terrible for throwing track. Good to know that overuse of the ground can make it soft. I wouldn’t have thought the game engine would account for that. 

I doubt the crew is very good infantry, so I’ll probably just leave them in safety 

My experience is,

- if you are moving “fast“ in difficult terrain, it increases your chance of being immobilzed.

- prior to being immobilzed, your vehicles usually „bog down“. Than it seems to help, to reverse. But you have only one turn to spot it and react.

Re the „crew usage“, there are different philosophies.

Of course, they are not Infantry, but may serve very well as spotters.

They can be pretty effective in close combat, too. I remember one FI game where a 5 men crew with Mauser‘s mowed down a whole US squad. Unfortunately only once, thereafter the bullets were spent. Again, very effective in the situation, but quite „gamey”.

Many people don’t like such gamey moves.

[JoMac]

37 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

My experience is,

- if you are moving “fast“ in difficult terrain, it increases your chance of being immobilzed.

- prior to being immobilzed, your vehicles usually „bog down“. Than it seems to help, to reverse. But you have only one turn to spot it and react.

Re the „crew usage“, there are different philosophies.

Of course, they are not Infantry, but may serve very well as spotters.

They can be pretty effective in close combat, too. I remember one FI game where a 5 men crew with Mauser‘s mowed down a whole US squad. Unfortunately only once, thereafter the bullets were spent. Again, very effective in the situation, but quite „gamey”.

Many people don’t like such gamey moves.

Shh, don't tell that to WalesofJosey...

In his last Youtube AAR against opponent a week ago, he disembarked all his Tank PHQ's crews and moved them up to a ridge to get enemy intel, then next turn he embarked back and was able to info share to rest of Tank company...Needless to say, in following turn his whole Tank Company moved towards the ridgeline and able to get quick spots and firing before opponent knew what hit him.

Andreas, still waiting for your 'Surrender' Game File...Oh, Never mind, it can wait as your still shooting the Breeze there in Dubai :-)

Edited December 11, 2018 by JoMc67

[Blazing 88's]

36 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

Shh, don't tell that to WalesofJosey...

In his last Youtube AAR against opponent a week ago, he disembarked all his Tank PHQ's crews and moved them up to a ridge to get enemy intel, then next turn he embarked back and was able to info share to rest of Tank company...Needless to say, in following turn his whole Tank Company moved towards the ridgeline and able to get quick spots and firing before opponent knew what hit him.

Andreas, still waiting for your 'Surrender' Game File...Oh, Never mind, it can wait as your still shooting the Breeze there in Dubai

Brillant use.  I have read many accounts of just such scouting excursions, especially by the German tank commanders.  Use it myself regularly and is not gamey at all. 

I would say that if you lose a vehicle to bogging, well I am going to put the crew to use for other purposes.  What?  The war is over for them because their vehicle is broken down and they have weapons??  Really???  F that!

[Heirloom_Tomato]

After having vehicles become immobilized what I felt was too many times, I built a test map 2km long with a "road" of every terrain type and made five variants, very dry, dry, damp, wet and muddy. One tank for each road, and send them off to see who gets stuck first. The quick summary is if the ground is damp or worse, anything other than a road leads to potential problems. So then the question becomes, how badly do I need this tank to cross that terrain and what happens if it gets stuck? 

I also setup fences, walls and hedges to see how many times you could go through before trouble arrives. I think 5 times through hedgerows with a Rhino tank leaves you immobile. Fences and small walls are fairly similar if my memory is right.

Crew experience also plays a major role, in my opinion. I have battle going on now with a green tank crew. I avoid grapevines in CMFI at all costs but this crew took a ricochet off the turret and freaked out. Slammed the tank into reverse, straight into a vineyard and then tried to make a right turn. They got immobilized in 15 seconds. The joys of WeGo PBEM.

Create a map for yourself and see what you find. Each vehicle reacts to the different terrain tiles and ground conditions differently so try out a few of your favorites and see how they do. It will get you using the editor at the very least and hopefully spark your creativity to create a scenario for the community. 

[Sublime]

The absolute WORST anti tank obstacle in game in my experience is those friggin vineyards in CMFI. I literally had a battalion assault stopped dead because all the tanks had to cross this vineyard area (only safe area to move towards the objective) and everything got immobilized.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

The stryker is also a bit temperamental when it comes to its wheels. As in, it seems to enjoy rupturing them so much that it might as well be a feature of the vehicle. Its not uncommon on a road march for a stryker unit to go through its entire stock of replacement tires, or at least a significant portion of them. Part of the reason for this is the complex hydraulic system used to raise and lower the truck itself.

Fair comment, but as I said, I still think the issue is exaggerated in the game, in TOC we were down to the rims on all six surviving Strykers in about two and a half hours, mostly due to wooden fences. 

[IICptMillerII]

24 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Fair comment, but as I said, I still think the issue is exaggerated in the game, in TOC we were down to the rims on all six surviving Strykers in about two and a half hours, mostly due to wooden fences. 

Unfortunately for the stryker and its crew, there is actually a surprising level of real life precedence of exactly what you're describing. I can't remember all the details off the top of my head, but a few years back there was a large exercise being conducted by the US 3rd Cavalry Regiment, which is a stryker unit. During the exercise they blew through all of their spare tires, and then through another full set of replacements. It was a bit of a fiasco, and an embarrassment for the commanding officer (hilariously, his last name was Admiral. So they had a Colonel Admiral as their regimental commander) though this incident was not a one off occurrence. So what you described happening to you in game is actually fairly realistic, albeit likely more on the extreme end of plausible. 

All that said, I agree that it is possible that vehicles might be a tad too sensitive to becoming immobilized.

[JoMac]

2 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

After having vehicles become immobilized what I felt was too many times, I built a test map 2km long with a "road" of every terrain type and made five variants, very dry, dry, damp, wet and muddy. One tank for each road, and send them off to see who gets stuck first. The quick summary is if the ground is damp or worse, anything other than a road leads to potential problems. So then the question becomes, how badly do I need this tank to cross that terrain and what happens if it gets stuck? 

I also setup fences, walls and hedges to see how many times you could go through before trouble arrives. I think 5 times through hedgerows with a Rhino tank leaves you immobile. Fences and small walls are fairly similar if my memory is right.

Crew experience also plays a major role, in my opinion. I have battle going on now with a green tank crew. I avoid grapevines in CMFI at all costs but this crew took a ricochet off the turret and freaked out. Slammed the tank into reverse, straight into a vineyard and then tried to make a right turn. They got immobilized in 15 seconds. The joys of WeGo PBEM.

Create a map for yourself and see what you find. Each vehicle reacts to the different terrain tiles and ground conditions differently so try out a few of your favorites and see how they do. It will get you using the editor at the very least and hopefully spark your creativity to create a scenario for the community. 

When I setup Scenarios, I generally use 'Very Dry' if terrain is actually 'Dry'...'Dry' is ground is actually 'Damp'...Damp' if ground is actually 'Wet'...This, since I also feel getting 'Immobilized' happens to regularly (thou, I don't mind getting 'Bogged' more often, then released several seconds or turn later). 

I think the 'Bogging'/'Immobilzed' trend started happening more often with release of CMRT & CMFB...

Edited December 11, 2018 by JoMc67

[StieliAlpha]

3 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

Andreas, still waiting for your 'Surrender' Game File...Oh, Never mind, it can wait as your still shooting the Breeze there in Dubai

It was Qatar. And unfortunately, after their nice  winter warmth, I already became used to the miserable winter cold of my Alpine retreat again.

Otherwise: Why surrender? Come on and face the wall of steel!

Eh, what? Not THAT wall.

[StieliAlpha]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

The absolute WORST anti tank obstacle in game in my experience is those friggin vineyards in CMFI. I literally had a battalion assault stopped dead because all the tanks had to cross this vineyard area (only safe area to move towards the objective) and everything got immobilized.

That reinforces my point: In difficult terrain, move sloooow.

Which sounds sensible to me.

[StieliAlpha]

2 hours ago, Blazing 88's said:

Brillant use.  I have read many accounts of just such scouting excursions, especially by the German tank commanders.  Use it myself regularly and is not gamey at all. 

I would say that if you lose a vehicle to bogging, well I am going to put the crew to use for other purposes.  What?  The war is over for them because their vehicle is broken down and they have weapons??  Really???  F that!

Oops, sounds like the argument is not very clear.

Using fresh crews, to obtain intel: Okayyyy, possible but gamey.

Using bailed out crews: Very gamey. I do not have actual experience, indeed. But if I imagine a 3“ (plus) shell exploding next to me, making me bail out of a tank, I do not think I would fancy to rush upfront again.

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

In reality, concertina wire is considered an anti-tank obstacle that tracked vehicles are not supposed to cross unless they absolutely have to. The reason is essentially that the wiring and materials that forms the obstacle get caught up in the wheels/treads/bogey wheels/etc. It is also easy to throw a track or have any other number of technical failures occur.

Not wanting to dispute that at all, but it is ironic that part of the original rationale for the design of the tank a hundred years ago was to crush down wire barriers so that the infantry would not get hung up in it.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

I think 5 times through hedgerows with a Rhino tank leaves you immobile. Fences and small walls are fairly similar if my memory is right.

That sounds about right by my experience.

Michael