Has this kind of recon scenario ever been done?

[Bulletpoint]

Just had this idea for a scenario, but I don't have all the games, so I don't know if it's been done before?

You are in charge of a recon element, basically infantry and some armoured cars. On a large map, you have to surprise and overrun enemy light screening forces in order to reach an observation point (for example, a hill). Some enemy forces will be caught by surprise (AT guns not deployed or pointing in the wrong direction, vehicles dismounted, etc).

You then have to sit on the objective for a short amount of time before retreating. Enemy heavy reinforcements will arrive at an approximate time and move aggressively towards you. You then have to escape back to an exit zone at your starting location.

Points would be given for reaching the objective, scouting enemy forces, and withdrawing friendly forces. Points withdrawn for casualties.

[womble]

26 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Just had this idea for a scenario, but I don't have all the games, so I don't know if it's been done before?

You are in charge of a recon element, basically infantry and some armoured cars. On a large map, you have to surprise and overrun enemy light screening forces in order to reach an observation point (for example, a hill). Some enemy forces will be caught by surprise (AT guns not deployed or pointing in the wrong direction, vehicles dismounted, etc).

You then have to sit on the objective for a short amount of time before retreating. Enemy heavy reinforcements will arrive at an approximate time and move aggressively towards you. You then have to escape back to an exit zone at your starting location.

Points would be given for reaching the objective, scouting enemy forces, and withdrawing friendly forces. Points withdrawn for casualties.

I recall talk about recon scenarios, but nothing quite like the "surprise" you're describing above. It does sound like an interesting narrative. Difficult to manage incentives for the "hold for a bit" segment, though. Us gamey bastidges will tend to look at the VPs available and realise that once you've taken the OP (a Touch objective, I think), the best result is obtained by immediately bugging out. What you could do is give points for info gathered on the reinforcements via "spotting" VCs. They'd have to be carefully balanced against points difference for losses sustained, in order to discourage just hanging around to be destroyed in order to gather all the "spotting" VPs. You'd probably want to have a very broken terrain so that one unit left as a hidden observer couldn't hope to spot enough to swing the result's evaluation.

[Bulletpoint]

Yes it would have to be "gamey bastidge" proof

A touch objective is probably best, maybe with an associated trigger for the enemy counterattack, and I would need to make it impossible to just do a fast rush by a couple of guys, but still maintaining the narrative of breaking through a thin screening force or surprising enemy recon. So they can't be too powerful enemies either. Hmmm...

As for the idea of making scoring dependent on spotting the counterattack, I like the idea, but it might be difficult without getting too stuck in combat with the reinforcements.

Another idea would be to include an arty observer and have him call in a strike on a cluster of buildings, with a destroy objective on a little barn building to represent a trigger to say the objective of calling in the strike is done. The entire thing being a placeholder for scouting. But I'd prefer just having the mission be about recon.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[Bulletpoint]

Is there any way to make a touch objective that can only be triggered by a specific unit (AI group?)

Because in that case, I could have one observer unit that was worth a lot of points, and he has to touch the objective. But you'd have to be sure the place is clear before you send him in, or you would risk losing the mission. then it wouldn't matter if you ran out of there the moment you flipped the objective, because the main gameplay would already have been achieved - clearing the area fast and getting the observer in position.

The whole counterattack thing would then be a bit redundant, because I could just set a time limit on the mission and say you need to get there before XX minutes. But it might be more immersive having the enemy show up in force instead of just a stale timer..

[Anthony P.]

You could set it up like the Tiger Poaching mission in the Kampfgruppe Engel campaign, where the counter attacking forces attempt to give chase by exiting the map, forcing the player to hold ground, ambush the attacking forces, etc. until the very last moment, then withdraw his forces as late as possible in an attempt to keep too many enemy units from exiting.

[StieliAlpha]

Sounds very "scripted" to me. Make sure to give it enough replay value. E.g., with multiple, challenging approaches and variable retreat pathes.

[Bulletpoint]

5 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

Sounds very "scripted" to me. Make sure to give it enough replay value. E.g., with multiple, challenging approaches and variable retreat pathes.

Roger that, I don't like scripted missions either.

I prefer playing on realistic lanscapes. The challenge should come from finding and dealing with the enemy and reach your objectives. And that's plenty of challenge in these games, I think. Especially when under a strict time limit.

By the way, if you like replayability, try out my scenario Pierrefitte-en-Cinglais. It has 5 different, sensible AI plans with movement orders, and even some variability inside each plan as well.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[A Canadian Cat]

No, you cannot designate a particular unit to be the one and only that can trigger the touch objective. 

I like the idea of spotting the lead elements of the enemy counter attack. Having the FO have to destroy a building only visible from the objective is a nice idea as well.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

<Snip> By the way, if you like replayability, try out my scenario Pierrefitte-en-Cinglais. It has 5 different, sensible AI plans with movement orders, and even some variability inside each plan as well.

Hey Bullet, 

I am playing a Shock Force scenario, Green 9, (Very good, highly recommended) that I should have finished in a few days.  I think I would like to give this one a try.  Where would I find it?  I found the thread in the mods forum but no link and did not see it in CMMODS III.   

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Hey Bullet, 

I am playing a Shock Force scenario, Green 9, (Very good, highly recommended) that I should have finished in a few days.  I think I would like to give this one a try.  Where would I find it?  I found the thread in the mods forum but no link and did not see it in CMMODS III.   

Right here:

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy/cm-battles-for-normandy/crossroads-at-pierrefitte-en-cinglais/

It only needs the base CMBN game.

[MOS:96B2P]

40 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Right here: <Snip> 

Got it.  Thanks.  Read the briefing and looked at the map.  Everything looks very well done.  Looking forward to crossing the line of departure on this one in the next few days.  

[Bulletpoint]

13 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Got it.  Thanks.  Read the briefing and looked at the map.  Everything looks very well done.  Looking forward to crossing the line of departure on this one in the next few days.  

Great, let me know how it goes. From the feedback I got already, it's a somewhat challenging scenario, but far from impossible.

I did all the terrain first, trying to get it as close to the reference image as possible, and without thinking about the defensive options. Then I did the various defensive setups, and there are some AI plans that are tougher to crack than others. 

Tried to keep it variable and somewhat "humanly un-perfect" - as a scenario designer, it's a bit too easy to get carried away by making perfect defenses, I feel.

If I had to set up my own personal defense against a human opponent on this map, there are some things the AI plans do that I would never do. But still, I think all the plans are coherent. It's just that some defensive tactics are better than others.

[kohlenklau]

8 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Is there any way to make a touch objective that can only be triggered by a specific unit (AI group?)

Well, the only thing I can think of is you use a breach team as your designated observer and the touch objective is inside a walled area.

The breach team then can blast their way in...and typically no other teams you have can do that. Unless the walled area gets blasted by tank shells or artillery.

Just trying to think outside the box...

(Hey! What if everybody thought outside the box. Then would it be the special thing to think inside the box?) 

 

 

[Michael Emrys]

9 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

(Hey! What if everybody thought outside the box. Then would it be the special thing to think inside the box?) 

Yes indeedy. In fact, at many junctures in my life I have done precisely that to throw off other people's expectations of what I am going to do next. Keep 'em guessing.

Michael

[Combatintman]

Personally I wouldn't get wrapped up about the OP touch objective.  The way I would structure it would be something like this ...

Time limit set at say 2 hours.

Structure your VPs so that the light enemy screening force (say a PanzerAufklarungs Platoon) is worth about a quarter of the VPs as a destroy objective.

Have a main body enemy unit (for argument's sake a Panzergrenadier Company) that appears about 45 minutes into the mission and has no VP value at all with AI plans to advance to (but not off) the friendly end of the map which in effect is the hunter force of your reconnaissance element.  I would have it advance with final waypoints that interdict likely routes back to the friendly reconnaissance element exit zone(s).

Have a depth enemy unit (for argument's sake a Tiger Company) that appears about an hour and a quarter into the mission and is worth about half of the VPs as a 'spotted' objective. It needs to appear somewhere where it will be difficult to spot and not advance too far down the map. The alternative is that it is laagered up in a wood/forest at the enemy end of the map or in three separate wood/forests at the enemy end of the map and only moves a short distance up the map after an hour and a quarter.

Your reconnaissance element is set as a destroy objective for the enemy and is worth about a quarter of the VPs and must exit the map at the friendly end.

Test and adjust VPs/Parameters to ensure that they fit the formula and don't award an easy victory if the player has not gone some way to achieving the three core tasks:

1. Defeat the PanzerAufklarungs Platoon.

2.  Identified the Tigers.

3.  Withdrawn off the map.

Likewise test and adjust timings based on the size of the map and number of forces available.

Other factors to consider are that you would need a fairly robust briefing to set the context and be sure that the player understood the intent.

This approach has the beauty of not dictating to the player where they have to set up their OP locations and allows them to come up with their own plan and adjust on the fly as events unfold.  Such choices then revolve around where to set up the OP and pose the question of how deep does the reconnaissance element have to probe.  The trade off is guaranteeing being able to see the Tiger Company by going deep but running the risk of not getting back safely.

Conceptually therefore it is pretty simple but it would need a fair amount of testing to get right.  I'll hold my hand up and say that I've never attempted to design something like this but I'm pretty confident something along the lines of the above would meet the intent.  @George MC would be someone who could probably offer more insights as I know at least one and possibly a couple of missions in his latest CMRT campaign (KG von Schroif) deal with defeating reconnaissance and use spotting objectives as a major part of the overall VP calculation.  The KG von Schroif thread is here ...

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/121775-cmrt-campaign-kampfgruppe-von-schroif/

I'd certainly play a reconnaissance type mission like this if it was executed well (apart from the fact that I don't have CMBN).

[Michael Emrys]

24 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Conceptually therefore it is pretty simple...

And actually pretty well thought out, it seems to me.

Michael

[Combatintman]

8 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

And actually pretty well thought out, it seems to me.

Michael

Thanks mate ... like I said though - the 'test and adjust' would be key to this.  The thoughts above were not totally off the top of my head, I have been kicking an idea around for CMSF to replicate some sort of recce screen/guard type mission.  Sadly I probably won't get around to executing it though as I have a few different mission types in the pipeline and a wife who seems to think that me sitting at my computer is a non-verbal means of communicating to her that I want to do housework/the garden.

[Bulletpoint]

13 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

Well, the only thing I can think of is you use a breach team as your designated observer and the touch objective is inside a walled area.

Ingenious idea for sure, but a bit too obviously pointing out it's a game for my taste.

Maybe if the observation point were behind dense bocage? Could be pulled off if it is mentioned in the briefing I guess - but I never really liked bocage without a way for infantry to cross. Seems a bit too much like playing pac-man  

[Michael Emrys]

57 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

...a wife who seems to think that me sitting at my computer is a non-verbal means of communicating to her that I want to do housework/the garden.

Michael

[Lt Bull]

On 31/05/2016 at 2:05 AM, Bulletpoint said:

You are in charge of a recon element, basically infantry and some armoured cars. On a large map, you have to surprise and overrun enemy light screening forces in order to reach an observation point (for example, a hill). Some enemy forces will be caught by surprise (AT guns not deployed or pointing in the wrong direction, vehicles dismounted, etc).

You then have to sit on the objective for a short amount of time before retreating. Enemy heavy reinforcements will arrive at an approximate time and move aggressively towards you. You then have to escape back to an exit zone at your starting location.

Points would be given for reaching the objective, scouting enemy forces, and withdrawing friendly forces. Points withdrawn for casualties.

I just finished a PBEM that is much like what you describe: "Evil Be To Him", there were no AT guns however.

I thought it was quite an innovative scenario design.  Worth at least checking out the design.

[MOS:96B2P]

On 5/31/2016 at 5:34 PM, Bulletpoint said:

Great, let me know how it goes. From the feedback I got already, it's a somewhat challenging scenario, but far from impossible.  <Snip> 

D Company has crossed the Line of Departure.  About 10 minutes in and contact was made.  In the next day or two I think I will start a separate thread with screenshots and SitReps.   

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

D Company has crossed the Line of Departure.  About 10 minutes in and contact was made.  In the next day or two I think I will start a separate thread with screenshots and SitReps.   

Good luck. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.