MOUT question

[Phantom Captain]

I'm curious what the rest of you do in a certain situation as this has been bugging me for awhile and I really don't know what the answer is.

 

Say you have a platoon tasked with clearing out a bunch of different buildings.  Let's put it at 10 different buildings, each 5-6 stories yet you only have one hour.  In my opinion it's impossible to have your squads go floor to floor in every building but my question is, is that even necessary?  Do you just basically go in to the first floor and that's it? 

 

It just seems some missions task you with more than what's possible for the time limit but I'm wondering if I think I have to do too much.

 

Make sense?

 

 

[sburke]

There is I think one scenario in the CMBS campaign with a situation similar to this.

 

One technique I have found to be useful against the AI at least is a recon by fire.  Basically you sucker it into revealing it's positions.  To do successfully you'll want a decent amount of supporting firepower.  Take the unit that is going to do the recon and give them a target light on the center mass of a building and let er rip.  Hopefully the enemy units will now expose themselves in response and your supporting units can put them down.

 

Also a decent unit in observation like a sniper should gradually spot anything in a facing building given time.

 

A designer in this case has to allow some madness to the time to do one of two things, force you to take risks to clear the area or simply give you enough time to slog through it and base points on casualties.

[IronCat60]

Hey there Phantom Captain, first off let me say you have a proud linage in your family! Wow Merrill's Marauders, I have read about those guy's exploits and they were tough as nails and then some!

 

Ok to answer your question. I taught MOUT for awhile and in real life it was the 2/All/2 rule for clearing buildings. This was applied if you could not work all the buildings from the top downwards, the ideal way to clear a building. With four teams work your way down both sides (2) of the street covering the movement of the bounding team from both sides in a criss-cross over watch. Once the bounding team has entered the next building they work their way up to the top of the building (All floors) Now from the building your team is in you should be able to see into two (2) other buildings and recon the floors by observation or direct fire. If the buildings across the way are taller than yours that warrants a small team to check out those floors. Also if a building has sturdy construction that direct fire cannot penetrate or a maze of rooms then that too needs further inspection. By observing into two buildings you can narrow down the ones that require more attention and basically skip the ones that are observed empty or do not return fire when fired upon and get down the street quicker.

 

Machine guns are always bringing up the rear and stay on both sides of the street with whatever team is the covering force. Other machine guns should also be kept at a distance and orientated to fire down the length of the street and parallel with the axis of advance. This includes the route friendly forces are advancing up and the next street over on the left and right. This is used to prevent lateral reinforcement of enemy positions by blocking fire up the streets parallel with the axis of advance.

 

As the game has open floors and the bad guys generally are not shy about firing at anything in range this should hopefully help you out.

[IICptMillerII]

I too have always wondered what the best way to go about MOUT is in CM titles. My first experience with it was in CMSF and while I was able to do a decent enough job, I did take some heavy casualties in a few cases. Generally, an enemy squad opening up from point blank range, or from a lone enemy soldier with an AR or just a regular rifle tearing into my men as they entered a building. I have been told a general rule of thumb is to use the 'Hunt' command, but I often find this very lacking. For instance, if there is a full blown MOUT battle going on, units given the 'Hunt' command tend to instantly dive to cover instead of proceeding into the building and clearing it. The 'Assault' command is good for bounding between buildings, and getting your men close to a building you want to breach, but when it comes time to actually enter the building the command is no good. I'm at a bit of a loss as to the best way, or command to use. I've found that using demo charges/breaching kits is usually a great tactic when you know there are bad guys on the floor you're breaching as it stuns them and allows your men to rush in and dispatch them quickly. But this has drawbacks, the first and primary being limited ammo/ capable units. The second is that its useless for clearing floors vertically. 

 

Wall of text aside, my main issue in MOUT is actually entering/clearing an occupied building. I know what needs to be done, I just do not know how to translate the real life tactics into CM with the given commands. 

 

@Mech.Gato: Thanks for the first hand experience/knowledge! During my MOUT operations I have generally tried to do what you are describing, although it is a lot less pretty or coordinated. I essentially try to bound my units while covering them and recon by fire as much as possible, especially when I have vehicles such as the Bradley or the Stryker. They carry a ton of ammo and can literally hose down buildings for hours without ceasing. As long as you keep them protected with your infantry, they are a powerful asset to use. 

On a personal note here, this is one of the reasons I much prefer the Bradley. The amount of firepower a single Bradley brings to the table is amazing. The 25mm Bushmaster can suppress and destroy both buildings and enemy positions with ease, and if there are any hardened structures or particularly tough enemy holdouts, the TOW missile usually does the trick real quick. I dislike the Stryker for its lack of firepower. The .50 Cal is a great machinegun and all, but the Bradley brings so much more in one package. 

 

@Phantom Captain: Give your Great/Grand/Father a handshake and a hug (if he is still with us) and thank him for what him and the rest of those boys did. Just so happens that today is the 70th anniversary of VJ day. Hope its a great one for you and your family, and everyone else as well. 

 

Edited: Grammar

Edited August 15, 2015 by IICptMillerII

[akd]

Note that HUNT triggering on own / friendly fire (small arms ricochets as such) should be fixed in Black Sea, so you can use it more flexibly now combined with suppressive fire when entering a building.

[womble]

It's also useful to give your entering/Hunting troops short Target Arcs; they won't halt their Hunt movement just because of enemy spotted outside that TA, though they will still hit the dirt if they come under fire from outside their TA.

[MOS:96B2P]

,Snip> In real life it was the 2/All/2 rule for clearing buildings. This was applied if you could not work all the buildings from the top downwards, the ideal way to clear a building. With four teams work your way down both sides (2) of the street covering the movement of the bounding team from both sides in a criss-cross over watch. Once the bounding team has entered the next building they work their way up to the top of the building (All floors) Now from the building your team is in you should be able to see into two (2) other buildings and recon the floors by observation or direct fire. If the buildings across the way are taller than yours that warrants a small team to check out those floors. Also if a building has sturdy construction that direct fire cannot penetrate or a maze of rooms then that too needs further inspection. By observing into two buildings you can narrow down the ones that require more attention and basically skip the ones that are observed empty or do not return fire when fired upon and get down the street quicker.

 

Machine guns are always bringing up the rear and stay on both sides of the street with whatever team is the covering force. Other machine guns should also be kept at a distance and orientated to fire down the length of the street and parallel with the axis of advance. This includes the route friendly forces are advancing up and the next street over on the left and right. This is used to prevent lateral reinforcement of enemy positions by blocking fire up the streets parallel with the axis of advance.

 

As the game has open floors and the bad guys generally are not shy about firing at anything in range this should hopefully help you out.

 

Thanks mech.gato.  Some interesting things to think about. 

[Phantom Captain]

Yes, thanks a bunch mech.gato and everyone else.  So basically after recon by fire there is no real need to clear an entire building and just doing a first floor touch is adequate you think?  It's just always been so frustrating knowing that in some battles there are so many buildings to "clear" and not enough strength and/or time to do it.

 

Oh and thanks for the compliments on my Grandfather.  He passed years ago but left quite a legacy.  He was one of the true unsung heroes of the war.  He actually fought on Guadalcanal first before volunteering for the secret mission that became the Marauders.  He was one of the tough ones who completed the whole campaign and came out on his own power.  Believe me, he had some stories and while he didn't talk much about it at the end of his life he started to open up and share with me because he knew my interest.  I have his pin and Marauders patch and my uncle has all his medals and other patches.  Purple heart, two Bronze Stars and the Presidential Unit Citation.

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip>  So basically after recon by fire there is no real need to clear an entire building and just doing a first floor touch is adequate you think?  It's just always been so frustrating knowing that in some battles there are so many buildings to "clear" and not enough strength and/or time to do it.  <Snip>

 

Well, I think it depends…………….. If the building is part of an occupy objective you are going to need to occupy it to earn the victory points.  Sometimes I will make a decision not to take all the objectives in a scenario because I don’t think I have the combat power left to do so and in RL the attack by my unit would probably have been stopped.  But this has consequences for victory points.    

 

I use several different SOPs for MOUT fighting.  One of the first is moving through a built up area towards objectives that are also in the built up area.  During this phase some buildings will be empty, some can be by-passed, some can be destroyed and the ones on the objective itself will probably need to be occupied.  I like mech.gatos SOP for this phase.  It is similar to mine but more refined. 

 

During the above, moving through MOUT phase, if/when you decide you must remove OpFor from a building you typically (depending on your TOE, ROE and situation) have a few choices on how to remove them:

 

1) Destroy the building (direct fire from tanks, arty, air strikes etc.)

2) Drive them out with direct fire (but not enough to destroy the building as in #1)    

3) Dynamic entry through a wall using demo charges.

4) Dynamic entry through a door.

 

Below is my current SOP for #4 Dynamic entry through a door.  I change and update these TACSOPs as I learn lessons, so if anyone has suggestions or their own recommendations please comment.

   

1. Split Squads: first Assault split (A-Team), AT split second (C-Team) & base (B-Team) remains.  (In CMBS you will only have A and

    B team)  In this order the Assault team will get most of the grenades which they will need below in #6.

2. Order suppressing teams (B-Teams) to Area fire at the building to suppress/kill defenders.  

3. When OpFor is suppressed (Stops shooting back) give suppressing teams Target Light orders.

4. Fast the assault team (A-Team) to 2 action spots from the building to throw grenades.

5. At the grenade throwing waypoint give the assault squad a 10 sec. pause order.

6. At the same grenade throwing waypoint give the assault squad a Target (area fire) order into the building.

7. Quick assault team into building while suppressing teams continue to Target light.

8. Give the assault team, at the waypoint inside the building, a 360 degree Target Arc to cancel the Target

    (area fire) order.

 

This will get you in at the ground floor.  Below are some screenshots from CMSF where this was used.  Hope this gives you some ideas. 

 

 An A-Team enters after throwing grenades while the B-Teams fire in support.

 

A-Team through the door making Tangos into good Tangos.

[Combatintman]

MOS, that scenario looks familiar ... 'Into the Green' by any chance?

[womble]

Yes, thanks a bunch mech.gato and everyone else.  So basically after recon by fire there is no real need to clear an entire building and just doing a first floor touch is adequate you think?  It's just always been so frustrating knowing that in some battles there are so many buildings to "clear" and not enough strength and/or time to do it.

It depends how confident you are it's clear. Against the AI, recon by fire is very likely to show up any opposition troops in the building, and you don't even need to go inside if the house is empty, unless it's its own standalone "Occupy" or "Touch" objective, at which point you'll need to go in, and in the first case, leave someone there to score it.

 

Against a wily human opponent, you might actually need to move through each (or most) floor(s) to detect the Hiding, tight Target Arc stay-behind Occupy-contesters.

[IICptMillerII]

@MOS: Awesome stuff there! I really like how you included some visuals to illustrate everything. 

 

@akd: Good to know! I'm glad to hear that soldiers will be less likely to dive to ground while under the 'Hunt' command than they used to be. 

 

So its looking like once its time to breach the building, using the 'Hunt' command with a closely set target arc is a good way to get things done. I'll have to give this a try.

[MOS:96B2P]

MOS, that scenario looks familiar ... 'Into the Green' by any chance?

 

Yes.  I should have mentioned the screenshots were taken from the excellent scenario Into the Green.  

 

The scenario is inspired by the book Company Commander written by Major Russell Lewis MC and is based in FOB Inkerman in the Upper Sangin Valley Afghanistan.  I highly recommend the book and the scenario.  It is very immersive to read the book and then fire up the scenario and become THE Company Commander.  Into the Green is available at the Repository.  Below is a link to a discussion thread about the scenario to include more screenshots.     

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/115533-new-mission-into-the-green/

 

This scenario was designed by Combatintman who is currently creating a planning tutorial at the below link.  Just in case you were wondering how detailed, accurate and well researched his work is.         

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120527-no-plan-survives-first-contact-with-the-enemy-planning-tutorial/

 

[grunt_GI]

Thanks for this discussion. I am always trying to perfect my MOUT abilities as they are my favorite scenarios. Most of my attempts involve large amounts of gunfire and casualties. This will be a big help.

[General Jack Ripper]

I was going to post a reply, but MOS basically hit the nail on the head as it were.

One of my basic rules of thumb is: if you don't need to take the building intact, a pile of rubble will do nicely.

[grunt_GI]

So here's a question that ALWAYS vexes me in MOUT scenarios...Mount or Dismount?  I assume with APCs like BTRs it's better to dismount, but what about Bradleys or Marders or even Strykers?  Is it better to leave the infantry mounted until the last possible moment or clear the streets with dismounts and the IFV or tanks as overwatch?

Edited August 19, 2015 by grunt_GI

[General Jack Ripper]

Mount or Dismount? Is it better to leave the infantry mounted until the last possible moment or clear the streets with dismounts and the IFV or tanks as overwatch?

 

It's a vexing question for sure, and it's also entirely conditional.

If I am advancing through a built up area, I will dismount the leading platoon, secure a route through the area, pass my friendly forces through the corridor, then mount up the security element and keep moving.

If I am assaulting into an area, I will dismount everyone, and leave the vehicles behind in overwatch.

Aside from tanks, I only bring vehicles into the built up area if I really need the extra firepower, or if I'm passing through to the other side.

APS and Slat Cage Armor is basically useless in an urban environment, one poses an unacceptable hazard to friendly personnel, the other is useless against an RPG fired from a second or third story window.

[grunt_GI]

Yea, that's my challenge, I am usually passing through, so it is hazardous and time consuming to dismount, clear, and remount to continue on.

 

I was playing the German Campaign of CMSF and ran into just this situation, how to clear an obvious nest of infantry with ATGMs without losing too many Marders.

 

I did not do well....but may tinker around with using dismounted infantry and a lot of overwatch firepower to suppress the buildings were bad guys likely are.