Contiinued LOF glitch

[ChappyCanuck]

I have spent untold hundreds of hours on the CM games, yet one thing still frustrates me to no end:  the LOF "glitch".  I know ALL of you have experienced this "glitch", but after my latest battle I just had to bring this to the surface again.

 

I am meticulous in setting up my defence - and it takes hours. Interlocking arcs of fire for my ATGs and MGs, tanks sited in hull down positions, you name it. Just like when I was an infantry officer...everything tied in together.  In the game, I allow for the crews to complete their shuffling around to ensure LOS/LOF.

 

And then I hit the start button and it all goes for a sh#t.

 

Suddenly it looks like some child sited the defence: LOF blockage everywhere.  Maddening, frustrating, ridiculous.  And still this is happening in the latest versions of the game.

 

Again, I know every one of us has experienced this, and in most games I just let it go to: "stuff happens", but with this last battle it was frequent and insane.

 

Any ideas on solving this mess would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance

 

[Bulletpoint]

Sometimes, in the middle of the battle, there are situations where there seems to BARELY be LOS. Enough to issue a target order, but once you hit end turn, the guys will refuse to open fire. Maybe that issue is related to yours?

[Muzzleflash1990]

Maybe you have LOS, but the units do not fire because they do not have LOF.

 

One thing that drives me mad is when a vehicle spots a target and prepares to shoot. Then just when the gun is about to be aligned, the very act of turning the gun, caused it to lose LOS or LOF to the target (I guess this is because the spotting equipment and the barrel are not at the same angle relative to rotation, and noew some tree trunk or whatever blocks sight?). The vehicle will keep moving the gun back and forth.

[ChappyCanuck]

Sometimes, in the middle of the battle, there are situations where there seems to BARELY be LOS. Enough to issue a target order, but once you hit end turn, the guys will refuse to open fire. Maybe that issue is related to yours?

 

This is turn 1, not in the middle of the battle though. Nothing has happened to change anything. Enemy troops have not even been sighted yet

[ChappyCanuck]

Maybe you have LOS, but the units do not fire because they do not have LOF.

 

See, this I do not understand. If I place an AT gun and select "target", this should be what the ATG can engage in either set up mode or when the big red button is pressed.  If not, any attempt at proper siting is a crap shoot.

[c3k]

Hmmm....

 

 

I -think- that LOS/LOF is determined from future waypoints based on current unit ELOS height (or it assumes standing: I forget which). This means that if your unit is upright (or assumed to be upright), then that future waypoint LOS/LOF is drawn from, say, 2m elevation. Once your unit gets into position, they go prone or squat. That drops their elevation to .5 or 1m.

 

Could that explain it?

 

Ken

[ChappyCanuck]

Hmmm....

 

 

I -think- that LOS/LOF is determined from future waypoints based on current unit ELOS height (or it assumes standing: I forget which). This means that if your unit is upright (or assumed to be upright), then that future waypoint LOS/LOF is drawn from, say, 2m elevation. Once your unit gets into position, they go prone or squat. That drops their elevation to .5 or 1m.

 

Could that explain it?

 

Ken

 

Thanks Ken.  But again, I allowed the crews to do their "set up shuffle"...I didn't even put a hide order on them (which shouldn't matter anyway because it is the weapon system that is sited and not the crew)

 

This also happened for one panzer (which maintains it's height of course) as well as the 2 x ATGs and some MGs.  When I set them up, they all had a wonderful KZ. And then it disappeared.

 

Here is something I was wondering about. The scenario begins at 5:40 AM - not dark, but not broad daylight either. During setup, would the software assume that is was broad daylight? Is that a possibility? That would certainly explain the "why" but unfortunately handicaps the defender in any battle with a dark or semi-dark environment

[Muzzleflash1990]

Hmmm....

 

 

I -think- that LOS/LOF is determined from future waypoints based on current unit ELOS height (or it assumes standing: I forget which). This means that if your unit is upright (or assumed to be upright), then that future waypoint LOS/LOF is drawn from, say, 2m elevation. Once your unit gets into position, they go prone or squat. That drops their elevation to .5 or 1m.

 

Could that explain it?

 

Ken

 

I'm not sure if this is the same problem, but it is definitely a issue I have often with infantry units. You make a waypoint to some crest or terrain contour and it tells you do have LOS to the other side. But when the squad gets there, all units go prone and cannot see anything or has a huge dead zone in front. Bit similar to the problem in CBMS with AT units spotting targets whem moving, and losing sight when stopping and crouch or lying down.

 

I prefer not to use LOS tool most of the time. Instead I get the camera down and find that often works just as well as the LOS tool. Sometimes it is worse, but occasionally it have been "more true" than the LOS tool. The only problem is the camera sometimes cannot get as low as you need.

[ChappyCanuck]

I prefer not to use LOS tool most of the time. Instead I get the camera down and find that often works just as well as the LOS tool. Sometimes it is worse, but occasionally it have been "more true" than the LOS tool. The only problem is the camera sometimes cannot get as low as you need.

 

Thanks Muzzleflash.  I use the camera as well but with all of that foliage blowing around in the breeze, it can be challenging as well (as you know).

 

I could probably accept the inaccuracies of the LOS tool for moving soldiers/vehicles.  ie. a section moves up against a wall and they can't be sure if everyone can target the woods in front or not.  But in a prepared defence, where you had the time to dig proper trenches, place friendly soldiers and vehicles out front to see if you could engage them or not, remove foliage to clear arcs of fire, this should not be a problem. And I think this is where the LOS/LOF tool is extremely disappointing.

[Muzzleflash1990]

Just performed a quick test: fired up a night QB in RT. The LO(S/F) tool ignores night time. You can give target orders against buildings and terrain more than 1km away if you want - well beyond visual range at night. You can also give target orders that are out of range of the weapons, the unit will just not shoot. I'm not sure the fog restricts the range of the LOS tool though.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Muzzleflash1990

[ChappyCanuck]

Just performed a quick test: fired up a night QB in RT. The LO(S/F) tool ignores night time. You can give target orders against buildings and terrain more than 1km away if you want - well beyond visual range at night. You can also give target orders that are out of range of the weapons, the unit will just not shoot. I'm not sure the fog restricts the range of the LOS tool though.

 

Aha!!!!  That is interesting indeed, and that is the answer for this battle anyway. Well done!

[Pak40]

Aha!!!!  That is interesting indeed, and that is the answer for this battle anyway. Well done!

 

So now the question becomes: is this an intended design in the setup phase or is it a bug or oversight?

 

IMO, the whole night time combat system is really lacking in CMx2. Star shells should be modeled and I'm not sure if moon phases are even considered. Also, are ambient light sources considered, buildings and vehicles on fire etc...

Edited July 15, 2015 by Pak40

[ChappyCanuck]

What puzzles me is this:  during setup, it would seem that environmental factors such as time of day (ie lighting, and I can only assume poor lighting from weather conditions as well) are completely ignored, yet as soon as the button is pressed, those sighting factors kick in to limit LOS/LOF.

 

I would like one of the game designers/reps to comment on this please.

[A Canadian Cat]

I -think- that LOS/LOF is determined from future waypoints based on current unit ELOS height (or it assumes standing: I forget which).

 

It uses the current height of the unit when determining LOS from future way points.

 

Just performed a quick test: fired up a night QB in RT. The LO(S/F) tool ignores night time. You can give target orders against buildings and terrain more than 1km away if you want - well beyond visual range at night. You can also give target orders that are out of range of the weapons, the unit will just not shoot. I'm not sure the fog restricts the range of the LOS tool though.

 

Now that is interesting - I never noticed that before.

[womble]

Given that, during setup, the lighting factors change as if you were in RealTime, it's not a surprise that the lighting conditions are not considered when calculating LOS. I really don't see the sense in having the "sun clock" running during setup and wish it would just bloomin' hold. Then the at-start lighting factors could be accounted for in your setup. As it is, if you're setting up in the pre-dawn, and it takes you an hour, your LOS will be extended for some of your units and truncated for the ones you footled with at the beginning of your session.

 

Truly not an ideal state of affairs. Stop the sun-clock, I say.

[slysniper]

Sighting and how it functions has always been poor compared to real world standards.

It was very frustrating to me when I bought CMBN, Now I have been playing so long I just don't care any more.

But I sure don't waste my time doing anything like you just mentioned. Because there is no chance of any guarantees as to what the game will give you as to units spotting.

I just set up the units to what visually looks like will work and then start getting into it once the game is actually running.

On defense, I will start checking units to see where they can now actually fire and set cover arcs to coordinate with each other, but all this only after the game is running. So that tells you what I think of set up phase spotting.

On offence I don't trust way point spotting much either. I normally send a scout unit to every important location first to make sure what they see before I waste time sending main units when ever I have the ability to do so.

But hoping for BF to give some major love to this at this point in the engine design is not likely to happen or fix how it basically works.

I still see armor running out in the open in plain sight not getting spotted outside the magic spotting window of 7 seconds that the game runs and think Really, can you explain that invisibility with any real WORLD EVENTS. No, SO I just say to myself, its just a blasted game and that feature sucks. But I still like it more than the Borg spotting system we had, or that most games have.

Edited July 15, 2015 by slysniper

[ChappyCanuck]

On defense, I will start checking units to see where they can now actually fire and set cover arcs to coordinate with each other, but all this only after the game is running. So that tells you what I think of set up phase spotting.

 

Yes, I see your point.  Which is unfortunate.  I really enjoy setting up a good defence using all of the principles I learned and utilised in real life. At the risk of dragging CMx1 into the mix (a hush comes over the crowd, lol), I don't ever remember having this issue in those games.

[Bulletpoint]

Setup DOES take time of day into account, but time will pass during setup. Once you hit start game, the time of day will rewind to the correct moment.

 

You said that you take hours to setup your game. During that real-life time, time passes in the game too. So if you set up a game that takes place before dawn, you start to draw LOS further and futher. The moment you start the game, darkness returns and your units are blind again.

[Pak40]

Setup DOES take time of day into account, but time will pass during setup. Once you hit start game, the time of day will rewind to the correct moment.

 

You said that you take hours to setup your game. During that real-life time, time passes in the game too. So if you set up a game that takes place before dawn, you start to draw LOS further and futher. The moment you start the game, darkness returns and your units are blind again.

 

See Muzzleflash's post above (#10)

[Warts 'n' all]

Sometimes when defending it is best not to give your troops any orders at all. Just let them get on with winning the battle themselves. 

[mjkerner]

Chappy, exactly the problem I had in our battle for Eindhoven.  Set up LOS went to shyte after the BRB is pressed.  Always a problem in setting up pbem games...a crap\shoot often.  And not just because the sun moves/rises/sets, but regarding slopes, tree lines, etc.  Like you mostly do, I chalk it up to FOW and crap happens.

[ChappyCanuck]

Sometimes when defending it is best not to give your troops any orders at all. Just let them get on with winning the battle themselves. 

 

worst.....advice....ever...lol

[ChappyCanuck]

Chappy, exactly the problem I had in our battle for Eindhoven.  Set up LOS went to shyte after the BRB is pressed.  Always a problem in setting up pbem games...a crap\shoot often.  And not just because the sun moves/rises/sets, but regarding slopes, tree lines, etc.  Like you mostly do, I chalk it up to FOW and crap happens.

 

MJ: as i recall, our battle started in the near dark as well. That would explain a lot with respect to Muzzleflash's findings above

Edited July 15, 2015 by ChappyCanuck

[Warts 'n' all]

"worst advice ever".... You may well be right.

 

I wouldn't want to spoil other player's fun by naming the scenario. But it has worked for me once. I only made one slight change to the initial disposition of my troops during the set-up phase and that was it. A "Total Victory" with only a few casualties. When checking on my troops at the end, I noticed that one of my AT Guns had turned almost 180 degrees and knocked out two enemy vehicles without any orders. 

[Fizou]

"worst advice ever".... You may well be right.

 

I wouldn't want to spoil other player's fun by naming the scenario. But it has worked for me once. I only made one slight change to the initial disposition of my troops during the set-up phase and that was it. A "Total Victory" with only a few casualties. When checking on my troops at the end, I noticed that one of my AT Guns had turned almost 180 degrees and knocked out two enemy vehicles without any orders. 

 

Against the AI I hope?