Suggestion for a better IRON difficulty

[Bulletpoint]

Friendly suggestion time again... please put down the shotgun

Currently, with IRON difficulty, units become invisible unless some other unit spots them. Well, or unless you deselect the unit, then you can see the entire army as you're used to on lower difficulty levels. It's basically just a matter of a less convenient interface, not higher realism.

So what I propose is:

IRON should mean that if a unit is not in C2, it cannot receive any orders.

This would make platoon leaders very valuable. Also, it would mean that higher levels of command could be needed to venture out in the field to take command of a lost platoon, instead of just sitting around in the starting area for the whole battle.

[patrykd]

Great idea!!!! I agree fully.

[Hister]

It,was,discussed already and conclussion was gameplay would suffer too much.

[Migo441]

Well, or unless you deselect the unit, then you can see the entire army as you're used to on lower difficulty levels. [iRON is] basically just a matter of a less convenient interface, not higher realism.

I'm interested in heightened levels of realism but I think it would be too extreme to prohibit orders to units outside of C2. Something as simple as a Scout team advancing in close terrain would not be possible without an HQ following close behind?

On defense, it's common to set-up teams outside of C2. The task would be, "Observe this sector. Engage isolated enemy units if possible, fall back to position X if/when enemy appears in strength." That's not overly ambitious or complicated, but something the TacAI would not handle.

A simple change to make Iron more meaningful would be to require a friendly unit to be selected at all times. This still falls in the "less convenient interface" category but would drive home the plight of isolated units; you could only select them by cycling through individual units. But no general deselected view would make watching movie playback in Turn based even more exhausting (probably a bad thing?).

The really tough thing is that the suitability of many rules/limitations are dependent on the scale. And people like to play CMx2 all the way from reduced Platoon to reinforced Battalion. This is a STRENGTH of the system and I don't think anyone wants to change it. But what works nicely for one scale may not fit another.

[sburke]

I'm interested in heightened levels of realism but I think it would be too extreme to prohibit orders to units outside of C2. Something as simple as a Scout team advancing in close terrain would not be possible without an HQ following close behind?

That right there sums it up quite nicely. The game functionality completely breaks down if you institute this kind of rigorous C2. Just because the Looie isn't around the squad doesn't become stupid. Odds are it might even improve

C2 right now works pretty darn good, isolated units are more fragile, without communications gear they can't spot for arty etc.

You can already enact this behavior in game if you want, no need to break the game to try and create it.

Peregine had a great thread on this.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1475843&postcount=1

[z-warfare]

I like to imagine that one day, CMx3 will use SOP's you can set for each unit from a fly-out menu, specifying categories of TacAI responses to different situations, eg Advance to Contact - Seek Cover - Hide - Engage Armour Only or some such.

No orders outside of C2 would be a little more workable with this.

[c3k]

Iron mode is very useful.

Select a unit: notice which friendly units it sees. Notice the enemy it sees. That gives you a lot of info regarding potential morale bonus/decrements and comms.

I prefer iron mode over the others.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I always considered IRON mode as a service, not a penalty, to the player.

It gives you an instant image of the perceived reality of the selected unit, which helps understand its situation.

I have been using it exclusively since CMSF.

EDIT: seems I am not the only one, C3k, :-)

[Hister]

I always used iron but now I get annoyed cause if I double click on the unit only the ones in contact are highlighted while I normally would want all the group they belong to to be highlighted.

[Bulletpoint]

Well, when splitting off a scout team you would just give its orders (waypoints) at the beginning, while it is still close to HQ. So the order would be to go up to that location, wait and see for 30 seconds, then come back.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I always used iron but now I get annoyed cause if I double click on the unit only the ones in contact are highlighted while I normally would want all the group they belong to to be highlighted.

Currently, with IRON difficulty, units become invisible unless some other unit spots them. Well, or unless you deselect the unit, then you can see the entire army as you're used to on lower difficulty levels. It's basically just a matter of a less convenient interface, not higher realism.

Keep in mind that in WEGO this is only true during the playback phase. During the orders phase the UI functions exactly the same as Elite difficulty. It's really not an inconvenience at all unless you are playing in real time mode.

[Hister]

Oooooh, that's why!!! After a long time I tried playing Char and Char Alike scenario in realtime (I always played in wego) and thought the new patch must have changed this.

All is good then. Nothing to see here, carry on people, carry on.

Thank you Vanir for your constant helpfulness.

[Bulletpoint]

Well, when splitting off a scout team you would just give its orders (waypoints) at the beginning, while it is still close to HQ. So the order would be to go up to that location, wait and see for 30 seconds, then come back.

Also, limiting scout teams a bit would put more emphasis on dedicated recon elements. Operating on their own thanks to carrying a radio.. Either dedicated scouts or Forward Observers.

[womble]

Also, limiting scout teams a bit would put more emphasis on dedicated recon elements. Operating on their own thanks to carrying a radio.. Either dedicated scouts or Forward Observers.

FOs are not recon elements. They're far too valuable assets to send them anywhere first.

No WW2 scout team available in the game that I know of carries its own radio.

This idea gets rolled out every now and then and shot down every time. You're perfectly capable of imposing this restriction on yourself, but the reasons it's daft have largely already been outlined.

[Migo441]

What about on defense?

Assuming an out-of-command team, just a firing arc and a Hidden vs. Non-hidden state? No other commands or possibilities without an HQ unit arriving on the scene? Surely a Team or Squad should have some initiative or ability to react to events without an HQ holding their hand.

To be clear, I LIKE restrictions and increased realism but I don't see how this would work.

Mechanically, I see how it would work but I don't see how it's workable within the greater context of the game. In real life, Platoon Leaders and Squad Leaders are able to lay out objectives and variations in broad strokes and give their troops the bigger picture of their task. Once a battle begins, lower level elements are able to act on their own judgment and don't need minute-by-minute contact with higher level elements in order to decide exactly when to advance, whether to withdraw, etc...

So we (the human players) are simultaneously the Team Leaders, Squad Leaders, Platoon Leaders, Company Commanders, and so forth. This DOES lead to Borg-like abuses when units take instant (sometimes complicated) decisive action in response to something they wouldn't know about. But not being able to issue any orders outside C2 might be even worse.

[LukeFF]

Nope, don't like the idea. Besides the units mentioned above, it would severely restrict the use of snipers, who by definition operated on their own.

[Lt Bull]

Keep in mind that in WEGO this is only true during the playback phase. During the orders phase the UI functions exactly the same as Elite difficulty. It's really not an inconvenience at all unless you are playing in real time mode.

Seeing people still discuss this after all this time makes me doubt what I think I already know about the difference between ELITE and IRON difficulty settings.

From the manual it says this:

Iron

Iron is an optional setting that goes even one step further than Elite, and introduces special restrictions on what the player can do and when. While even more realistic than the other settings, this option introduces a number of interface limitations

which might put off the casual player, so it is strictly an optional choice.

- Friendly units need to be spotted just like enemy units. If you have a friendly unit not inline of sight or in contact with another friendly unit, then the only way to find this unit is by either re-establishing contact with another friendly unit or by clicking through the chain of command in the game interface, jumping from unit to unit.

I just need to confirm what it is I think I know about the differences: From a WEGO gameplay perspective only, it was my understanding that there really is no point in playing in Iron. It doesn't make the game anymore realistic or challenging than Elite, certainly not "even more realistic than the other settings" as stated in the manual, which I think is misleading. All the gameplay and C2 mechanics remain the same, Iron just makes it perhaps at times harder/less convenient for the player to find where units are on the map. Playing unpaused RT however, I could understand that playing Iron would be more challenging as the player can experience FOW with his own units whenever they selected any unit.

Is this evaluation correct?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Is this evaluation correct?

Not really. In Iron mode, friendly units have to spot each other the same as they do enemy units. Also, units that are out of C2 with each other and then reestablish contact have a longer delay in reestablishing C2. In Elite, friendly units in LOS of each other automatically spot each other and can reestablish C2 almost without delay.

The practical effect of these differences is minor, in part because C2 isn't nearly as important in the game as reality. But even if it is only a small increase in realism it's a free bonus, in my view, since there is no downside to playing Iron.

[Lt Bull]

Not really. In Iron mode, friendly units have to spot each other the same as they do enemy units. Also, units that are out of C2 with each other and then reestablish contact have a longer delay in reestablishing C2. In Elite, friendly units in LOS of each other automatically spot each other and can reestablish C2 almost without delay.

The practical effect of these differences is minor, in part because C2 isn't nearly as important in the game as reality. But even if it is only a small increase in realism it's a free bonus, in my view, since there is no downside to playing Iron.

OK, I think I will need to ask more questions to test my understanding of the significance, situations and implications of this.

I think I understand the whole "friendly units need to spot each other" (ie. unlike Elite, if LOS is possible, spotting is not automatic), but how does this really affect things in a game?

Is it just that there may be a "spotting time delay" when establishing a visual C2 link between leader/subordinate pairs hence making it more likely that units remain out of visual C2 with their leaders? Do we know what kind of time delay we are typically talking about? Is it typically always just a few seconds? If so, then I wouldn't expect the extra few seconds of having a unit NOT in visual C2 to have much (if any) influence on gameplay.

Does the need to spot other friendlies in Iron potentially also affect the gameplay outside of just C2 links? I mean, does a unit care if it can see/has spotted other units besides it's own leader unit?

Am I right to assume that a game played on Iron would/should in theory require more PC resources because LOS checks are now being performed not just between friendly/enemy units but also between friendly/friendly units?

Can anyone recall any scenario they have played (or even a situation) where they believe an outcome would have been different had the setting been Elite as opposed to Iron?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Is it just that there may be a "spotting time delay" when establishing a visual C2 link between leader/subordinate pairs hence making it more likely that units remain out of visual C2 with their leaders? Do we know what kind of time delay we are typically talking about? Is it typically always just a few seconds? If so, then I wouldn't expect the extra few seconds of having a unit NOT in visual C2 to have much (if any) influence on gameplay.

I don't recall ever specifically testing this aspect. However, the person who clued me in to the differences claimed to have:

A quick test to show the dramatic difference is to have a platoon leader and its SQD both behind hedgerows hiding from each other about 90m apart.

IRON MODE - C2 is broken as they won't see each other. 5 minutes of hiding still results in neither unit seeing the other. After unhiding the SQD they still do not spot their hiding leader. This continues for another 5 minutes. After unhiding both of them they spot each other within 15s at the outside. But even though this spotting occurs reasonably quickly you do not get a green C2 for another 40-50 seconds. There may be some sort of memory because if you "fast" the SQD away of out LOS and run them back in again they spot quickly (<5s) and establish C2 quickly (another 5s). If you repeat this several times they seem to always spot and establish C2 within 10 seconds of LOS existing. But if you run the SQD away and pass 5 minutes before running them back then my quick test shows it takes 40-50 seconds to establish C2 after the units have spotted each other.

ELITE MODE - Spotting is immediate and they are in C2 within a second. If you move one of the units back out of LOS C2 is broken. Keeping both units "hiding" if you "slow" the unit back into LOS it is still immediately spotted and C2 is established with <1 second delay.

Does the need to spot other friendlies in Iron potentially also affect the gameplay outside of just C2 links? I mean, does a unit care if it can see/has spotted other units besides it's own leader unit?

No.

Am I right to assume that a game played on Iron would/should in theory require more PC resources because LOS checks are now being performed not just between friendly/enemy units but also between friendly/friendly units?

That may be true, although I have never noticed any difference. AFAIK, in WEGO any difference would manifest in the "blue bar" taking longer to calculate rather than lower framerates.

Can anyone recall any scenario they have played (or even a situation) where they believe an outcome would have been different had the setting been Elite as opposed to Iron?

C2 is not important enough in the game to decide the outcome of a battle on its own.

But I look at it this way: If someone offered me 5 dollars with no strings attached, would I ask if 5 dollars has ever made or broke a man and turn away, or would I just take the free money?

[Lt Bull]

Thanks for that Vanir Ausf B, I realise now I had never understood the difference between Elite and Iron correctly.

Funnily enough, I may actually have you (and womble) to blame for that misunderstanding! You quoted Peregrine and I followed the link to where you got that from. What a great read. I am sure I probably read the first few pages back in the day and just believed what I read:

I just went and repeated that checking, and agree with you. Neither "Difficulty" level nor experience nor leadership level seemed to have any effect on when "Voice and Sight" changed to "sight only" and then to "Distant sight".

Maybe that thread was the reason why others may still not properly understand how Iron setting works.

Anyway, I have started to do some test of my own using Iron setting. What is strange is that I honestly believed (remember) that when you clicked a friendly unit during either the replay or orders phase, that, as has been described, the only friendly units you would see would be the ones that the unit currently has LOS to and has spotted.

For some reason I now see that this only applies if you click a unit during the REPLAY phase! What the?? During the ORDERS phase all friendly units remain visible (just like in Elite) regardless of whether you click on a unit on the map or not.

I have conducted back to back Elite and Iron mode C2 tests and have also (quite randomly) been able to find a situation where in Elite mode visual C2 can be established but in Iron mode it seems apparently impossible.

I happened to choose a scenario called "Clenbienne Allied vs AI". I was just playing around with a Section HQ and it's squad unit, moving them around, in and out of LOS and testing/checking how C2 worked.

In Iron setting, I had the HQ unit inside a building looking out towards a road that led away from the building. There are two hedges between the road and the building. A LOS check from the HQ to the road reveals that there is partial (grey) LOS and can spot all the friendly units in front of it. For whatever reason, I could only establish both audible and visual C2 if the squad unit was literally in the action square immediately adjacent to the building. One action square away at a range of just 12m, and the visual C2 link disappears, the audible C2 link remains. According to the "only what the unit can see information" revealed during the replays, it did appear that the squad actually can see the HQ unit. So why is there no visual C2?

I then proceeded to move the squad further away until the "only what the unit can see information" revealed during the replays told me that it had lost LOS with the HQ unit. This seems to occur one action square further away from the 30m range it last could see the HQ unit. Even when I gave the HQ unit int he building area fire orders in an attempt to make themselves revealed/visible to the squad unit looking their way just 12m away, teh squad unit still could not spot the HQ unit.

Screenshots below taken during movie:

Squad sees/spots HQ..

and HQ sees/spots squad...

...yet visual C2 doesn't ever seem to occur, even at 12m range!

PS: Apologies for the poor graphical quality of the in game graphics in the screenshots. Some terrain in the CM screenshots I take seem to get blurry for some reason (be nice if someone knows how to avoid this).

If you try these same things on Elite however, visual C2 exists between these units even if the squad unit moves 100m distant up the road from the HQ unit in the house. If LOS is symmetrical (ie. if one unit can spot another then the other can also potentially see it), why doesn't this seem to apply in Iron? It seems having mutual LOS between units in Iron (even at 12m range) doesn't guarantee visual C2 will eventually occur.

Something doesn't seem right here. :confused:

Here is the IRON saved file that you can repeat the same tests:

https://db.tt/fpyooMgT

PS: I just realised how confusing it can be playing in Iron if you are trying to determine during a turn whether an out of visual C2 unit actually has a LOS to it's HQ unit (or vice versa. note: both units must spot each other simultaneously). You need to wait for the replay to click on the unit to really tell what it has/hasn't actually spotted.

[Jock Tamson]

What is strange is that I honestly believed (remember) that when you clicked a friendly unit during either the replay or orders phase, that, as has been described, the only friendly units you would see would be the ones that the unit currently has LOS to and has spotted.

For some reason I now see that this only applies if you click a unit during the REPLAY phase! What the?? During the ORDERS phase all friendly units remain visible (just like in Elite) regardless of whether you click on a unit on the map or not.

That's because Playback is essentially Real Time mode with pre plotted orders. And in Real Time mode, Iron operates as you would expect ie you get the LOS effect.

I would like to go much further with Iron (or introduce a hardcore mode) where you have restricted camera, restricted to a 200m radius of the selected unit. Outside of that radius, plotting waypoints and area fire orders would be slightly more into the unknown ie you might not select exactly the action spot that you want. It would also prevent players from roving round the map during playback to pinpoint unspotted AT guns and mortars by sound.

[A Canadian Cat]

From the manual it says this:

Iron

...

which might put off the casual player, so it is strictly an optional choice.

Not just the casual player IMHO.

Is this evaluation correct?

I see that @Vanir Ausf B has already given you a differing opinion but I believe your evaluation is correct I am curious about the effect on being in or out of C2 though. My experience has been that in Elite I have lots of situations where my units appear to be able to see each other but have a delay in establishing C2. Unless he has already tested this, and he might have since it creates lots of interesting tests, this could be worth looking at. Probably a pretty low priority.

[A Canadian Cat]

If you try these same things on Elite however, visual C2 exists between these units even if the squad unit moves 100m distant up the road from the HQ unit in the house. If LOS is symmetrical (ie. if one unit can spot another then the other can also potentially see it), why doesn't this seem to apply in Iron? It seems having mutual LOS between units in Iron (even at 12m range) doesn't guarantee visual C2 will eventually occur.

Something doesn't seem right here. :confused:

Yikes that does seem suspicious.

Nice icon mode BTW. I need to update those to support flame throwers - I included an icon for flame throwers but I was just guess on what the file name would be. Seems I guessed wrongly.

[Bulletpoint]

Most of you seem to forget that Iron is an optional mode. If you don't like my suggestions for what it could be, that's ok, but I personally would like to be able to make C2 necessary for orders.

Snipers and special teams that need to operate independently could simply be made exempt from the rule.

Oh well.