Concerned about Urban Combat...

[Childress]

I hope some day bigger buildings will get split in 2 to 4 action areas simulating rooms that would add more flexibility in urban combat and lessen abstraction.

the downside would be even more micromanaging and ai problems.

Not necessary, imo. For the reasons you give plus the extra, onerous graphics labor plus CM's the wrong scale for this magnitude of detail. Cumulative structural degradation- for example, standing facades, smaller entry explosions, greater variety of rubble- is another matter.

[womble]

For me, the first rule of urban combat is: "split your squads". And that doesn't just mean "use the Admin commands to separate the teams, it means not having teams moving through areas all at once. Not only do they get in each others' way, if they're milling around in a mob, they'll get in bullets'/grenades' way too.

The second rule is: don't go in if you don't have to. You're most vulnerable to the enemy when you've got one team moving into a new building. If the enemy are in the building, you might have some suppression support for your land grabbers, but if the enemy are (sensibly) behind the building, they'll shoot into it, with impunity from your side of the building, and your moving element will be like fish in a barrel, getting little or no protection from the fires and with the enemy getting good protection from return fire. Sometime, of course, you have to make entry, and sometimes you'll sweep all the enemy out of the houses you can reach and will need to flank them somehow to sweep them from the "back street".

[MikeyD]

I hope some day bigger buildings will get split in 2 to 4 action areas

Map designer for years have been using modular buildings, uh, modularly. 2-3-4 building elements with internal walls/doors representing separate rooms. Years ago I threw together a Texas shopping mall scenario for CMSF that I vaguely recall used 80(?) modular elements representing an anchor store and upscale mall next to a freeway. Entering the mall was suicide.

[Collingwood]

Though I had to use some selfmade mods to get convincing looks as well (a rubble texture as replacement for rocky red and a better looking ground hard from Aris, as well as some dirty pavement).

Very nice work Harry! I don't remember, but perhaps the new mods tag in CMRT will allow us to specify terrain mods.

[permanent666]

Map designer for years have been using modular buildings, uh, modularly. 2-3-4 building elements with internal walls/doors representing separate rooms. Years ago I threw together a Texas shopping mall scenario for CMSF that I vaguely recall used 80(?) modular elements representing an anchor store and upscale mall next to a freeway. Entering the mall was suicide.

I know but it looks silly with the bn roofs. I played umlauts amazing urban map against my brother and the biggest problem was, that if you enter a building the soldier will automatically move to the opposing wall and get immediately under fire.

In my old close combat days it was a common tactic to deploy the squads behind the houses if you intended to defend them.

I once tried this tactic in CMSF and it did not work so well.

Edit: Just tried this tactic again and the defenders behind the house tactic does indeed work. there must have been some code change since CMSF

[sburke]

Nice work Rockin Harry. I may have to talk to you about some of those mods.

Here is the original Venafro as included in GL. It is a fairly small map and is heavily demolished. Historically Venafro had been hit by a bomber raid intended for Cassino and the town center was smashed causing numerous civilian casualties. There is a memorial ceremony there every year in remembrance.

This was an item I really liked. A wall with a poster on it that I accidentally placed too deep. While wondering how to remove it I set the wall to damaged and Voila! I got a torn poster.

[sburke]

This is an expanded map and I have another that is 1x1 km that is almost complete. These maps tend to be less heavily rubbled and have more experimentation with different types of urban terrain. An industrial park, University campus, built up tenement areas etc.

This is the portion from the original map

[sburke]

Action sequences

Nice Shrek ambush location

[BletchleyGeek]

In my own mission designs, I cut strenght of german HMG units by half to get rid of the extra men, that unnecessarily cramp the AS and just increase vulnerability of the whole unit and provide micro positioning problems. It still escapes me, why US HMG units can split and the germans can not.

This is SO true

Regarding the AS's and the friendly AI - it's a bit like the AI struggles to work out a formation that complies with the Face command (if given) and the cover/concealment present in the AS or around it. And indeed the end result usually is much better the less pixeltruppen are in the AS. It's a bit like the formation is 'all right' but ends up being 'compressed' or 'distorted' because soldiers in the same element cannot be in different AS.

I toyed around with the idea of 'breaking' up German squads into three Scout teams and an LMG team, but you end up with a lot more firepower than you wanted (unless the Scout team with poor 'equipment' is equipped with rifles, something I haven't tried). The other problem had to do with circumventing the C2 structure: those 'squads' not only had a lot more firepower than historical, they were also extremely resilient to adverse morale effects.

[Childress]

the biggest problem was, that if you enter a building the soldier will automatically move to the opposing wall and get immediately under fire.

That's a BF design decision. In CM1, iirc, you could park an infantry unit in the rear of a room. Now it automatically expands out to the walls. Which works well 95% of the time. But complicates setting up an Ambush.

[RockinHarry]

Very nice work Harry! I don't remember, but perhaps the new mods tag in CMRT will allow us to specify terrain mods.

This, or add ground type/texture variations in the empty space in lower left corner, just like it´s done for buildings, doodads and the like. Rubble would be very similar to Rocky ground, maybe more hazardous for tracked vehicles and impassable for wheeled ones. In this regard my modded Rocky Red is just for looks and little hindrance for tank movements, but it works ok. It´s doubtful that BFC adds another impassable (to vehicles) ground type to the game, as it would highly increase AI path finding problems. We´ll see.

[sburke]

This, or add ground type/texture variations in the empty space in lower left corner, just like it´s done for buildings, doodads and the like. Rubble would be very similar to Rocky ground, maybe more hazardous for tracked vehicles and impassable for wheeled ones. In this regard my modded Rocky Red is just for looks and little hindrance for tank movements, but it works ok. It´s doubtful that BFC adds another impassable (to vehicles) ground type to the game, as it would highly increase AI path finding problems. We´ll see.

You could also just mod boulder terrain to achieve that effect. I think this is probably an excellent idea. Adding new terrain types involves the UI and BF always hesitates on that. Mud, boulders etc are all viable options if we can mod them to have the effects match the desired look. I would probably prefer using mud as I think the ideas would be they can try to move through but may bog.

[RockinHarry]

You could also just mod boulder terrain to achieve that effect. I think this is probably an excellent idea. Adding new terrain types involves the UI and BF always hesitates on that. Mud, boulders etc are all viable options if we can mod them to have the effects match the desired look. I would probably prefer using mud as I think the ideas would be they can try to move through but may bog.

I see you put as much love into detail, realism and gritty looks! One can spend many hours just to get certain details right and urban maps are the most challenging, but also most fun to make. To bad I do not have CMFI and GL (yet).

My current map is rather small (~300 x 500m) and serves mainly for prototyping, just as you do with mentioned industrial park, administrational buildings ect, to see what looks and works good and what not. Full working maps to follow. So far I´m quite satisfied with what can be done, offered in the editor. Kudos to BFC for that!

I´d like to see the problem with flattened Indi building wall texture ( building-damage-stub.bmp ) solved though. It unfortunately resists any modding attempts, as likely it´s more of a 3D geometry problem and the one texture fits all aproach, for flattened Indi buildings. I see from the CMRT AAR screenshots, the problem is still unsolved.

Is the rubble doodads (junk) in CMFI the same as in CMBN? How about the rubble floor in flattened buildings? My texture mod is made from the CMBN floor and thus fits fairly well, when placed on rubble piles adjoining flattened buildings and spiced up with occasional junk doodads. Blends fairly well together. For CMFI it likely needs to be lightened up considerably. I assume the western european red brick would not look that convincing in most italian cities. Aris has a nice ground tile mod package and his "ground hard" replacement tile is also in use, combined with my rubble tiles. I think this would also look good on italian maps.

Is boulder terrain a CMFI type? I do not see it in CMBN. :confused:

[MOS:96B2P]

Just so you know, that map was begun more or less as an experiment to see just how close in CM one could recreate a dense heavily damaged urban environment. Some of the building "ruins" are simply elevation differences with some walls and flavor items. Others are actual ruined buildings.

I spend a lot of time tinkering on an expanded version of that map and have become used to what to expect where. The Town center in particular is a deliberate mess. Advancing through it is difficult and tends to lead to your troops suddenly becoming exposed to enemy fire in less than ideal conditions. Once CMFI gets upgraded to version 3, I hope to revisit it with a slightly larger force mix and armor. It was created prior to the tweaks BF added to allow use of AT weapons from buildings.

Venafro is a great map and Venafro back into hell is a great small urban battlefield scenario. The light fog, rain and knocked out vehicles made for great battlefield immersion. At one point in the battle I noticed a poster on the wall of a building. I took about 20 minutes out of the fight to scroll around the map and check out the posters and other flavor items and details that went into the map. I highly recommend this scenario to anybody who wants to try out some MOUT tactics. It is good training in preparation for Stalingrad and one of my favorite scenarios in CMFI GL. Someday down the road I hope sburke and RockinHarry are heavily involved in the Stalingrad scenarios.

Non-working doors can be problematic on urban maps. However if an urban scenario provided a demo team I would make my own doorways where needed and solve that problem. Thanks for taking the time to make Venafro.

[RockinHarry]

This is SO true

Regarding the AS's and the friendly AI - it's a bit like the AI struggles to work out a formation that complies with the Face command (if given) and the cover/concealment present in the AS or around it. And indeed the end result usually is much better the less pixeltruppen are in the AS. It's a bit like the formation is 'all right' but ends up being 'compressed' or 'distorted' because soldiers in the same element cannot be in different AS.

I toyed around with the idea of 'breaking' up German squads into three Scout teams and an LMG team, but you end up with a lot more firepower than you wanted (unless the Scout team with poor 'equipment' is equipped with rifles, something I haven't tried). The other problem had to do with circumventing the C2 structure: those 'squads' not only had a lot more firepower than historical, they were also extremely resilient to adverse morale effects.

Exactly! (with regard to AS and facing)

Interestingly I´m toying with the same idea as well. I reduce german squads to 70-80%, then split and add either marksmen or scout teams to the platoon HQ, to get the overall strength back to what I want. This gives me the desired density of ptruppen (3-4 max) within an AS. So far this is for AI players only, as I find the AI is using assault move too often and in wrong circumstances (urban terrain, woods ...), with the forward group getting slaughtered, while the support group is beeing unable to...support. So far testing results are quite promising and the AI appears to have a more easy time with seperated half squad size units, particularly in difficult terrain.

Off course there´s far more behind, like constructing the right AI plans, movement orders and zones, unit soft factors, so lots of experimenting remains.

Overall my aim is to help the AI player reduce vulnerability and increase path finding abilities. Also I want to rule out full strength squad assault move, when I need advance, assault and max assault move orders applied in a plan.

[BletchleyGeek]

Off course there´s far more behind, like constructing the right AI plans, movement orders and zones, unit soft factors, so lots of experimenting remains.

Overall my aim is to help the AI player reduce vulnerability and increase path finding abilities. Also I want to rule out full strength squad assault move, when I need advance, assault and max assault move orders applied in a plan.

That sounds like a quite interesting 'research' program, Harry. Keep us posted regularly

[sburke]

Is the rubble doodads (junk) in CMFI the same as in CMBN? How about the rubble floor in flattened buildings? My texture mod is made from the CMBN floor and thus fits fairly well, when placed on rubble piles adjoining flattened buildings and spiced up with occasional junk doodads. Blends fairly well together. For CMFI it likely needs to be lightened up considerably. I assume the western european red brick would not look that convincing in most italian cities. Aris has a nice ground tile mod package and his "ground hard" replacement tile is also in use, combined with my rubble tiles. I think this would also look good on italian maps.

Is boulder terrain a CMFI type? I do not see it in CMBN. :confused:

I'll have to look. Honestly I have tinkered very little with urban landscapes in CMBN. I started to with MG, but haven't gotten too far yet. The indie buildings in CMFI are just more appealing to me.

I'd love to try out that mod. I tend to use a lot more of the junk debris than I'd like. If the ground terrain could give the distinct feel of rubble it would save a lot of effort. I also really like that look of a collapsed wall in yours. I have tried getting the look of removing the facing of a building and elevating the adjacent tile, but it doesn't quite do it.

[76mm]

RockinHarry, those mods look pretty great, keep up the good work.

[Jishmael]

I kinda dislike the Idea of Reducing MG Team Size for "Game" Reasons. It takes away from the realism for me.

Also: US MG Teams can split? you mean they have ammo bearer teams? Cuase I've never seen a Split Command on any of my HMGs

[RockinHarry]

I kinda dislike the Idea of Reducing MG Team Size for "Game" Reasons. It takes away from the realism for me.

Also: US MG Teams can split? you mean they have ammo bearer teams? Cuase I've never seen a Split Command on any of my HMGs

German full strength HMG teams have 6 men. This includes the gunner team and the ammo bearers. This unit can not be split. US HMG teams have gun team and ammo bearers seperated (2 teams) by default.

The point is that full strength german HMG teams are a rather big target when cramped in a single AS, depending on terrain type. Usually it´s just the 3 men gun team occupying a fighting position, with the ammo bearers seperated at a distance, at least 1-2 AS apart in game terms. In real life they would keep out of the fight, unless in an emergency. A single german HMG team thus can not operate the weapon and at the same time have ammo beareres on hide. Any fire directed at such a large team would make it very vulnerable at whole.

I do the same strength reduction for US/UK teams under AI control and usually leave them at original strength when human played.

Steve said it´s made this way so that there´s enough crew members left to operate the weapon, when the actual gunner(s) has been killed. Well, in RL a HMG would seldomly stay until last crew member is killed and rather retreat or move to a switch position. Matter of realism, or maybe of taste, but I prefer to have HMGs a small of a target as possible, particularly for an AI player.

[RockinHarry]

I'll have to look. Honestly I have tinkered very little with urban landscapes in CMBN. I started to with MG, but haven't gotten too far yet. The indie buildings in CMFI are just more appealing to me.

I'd love to try out that mod. I tend to use a lot more of the junk debris than I'd like. If the ground terrain could give the distinct feel of rubble it would save a lot of effort. I also really like that look of a collapsed wall in yours. I have tried getting the look of removing the facing of a building and elevating the adjacent tile, but it doesn't quite do it.

Here´s Aris terrain tile mods for CMBN

http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/4817/details

and for CMFI (I hadn´t looked at content yet)

http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/4774/details

I modded "ground rubble.bmp" from original CMBN file set and mixed and scaled down portions of that into a new file. So the new file shows more true to real size heaps of brick, as well as larger portions which could be larger parts of the facade or interior walls. It´s pretty rough for my taste and I intend to ask Aris if he could make an Aris quality one.

My file is somewhat darker as I wanted and attempting to lighten it up, just resultet in some loss of color saturation. The lightened up (and somewhat desaturated) version though looks good, if assuming a dry and dusty environment, while my original version looks better, assuming damp environment. Using Gimp 2.8 btw.

I could send anyone interested in the files by email, as I do not want to upload these at GAJ mod place yet.

Yep, using a rubble ground tile saves a lot of necessity to scatter additional junk heaps. Just using them to add more detail at certain places, or mask transitions between ground tiles and buildings where necessary.

Hm...collapsed walls? I basically made them just as you described, if understanding correctly. Assuming you put modular building #1 (covering 1 AS only) to overlap 2 adjoining AS with different height by half, then the lower height AS sets the base building height and the higher AS is cut at an sharp angle. Both AS are tile locked off course. A height difference between 1-4m works best so far. The rubble tile is placed both, beneath the building and on the cut down AS beside it. This gives the impression of a collapsed wall. I use higher ones for buildings that have collapsed upper stories and small ones for just partly collapsed lower walls and such. That what you mean?

I´ve not worked that much with rising AS by ditch lock, but best results so far, are with tile locked mounds.

When it comes to rubble strewn streets, I use a mix of pavement, ground hard and rubble tile and where appropiate put gravel road at intervals on top.

Here´s some more pics, where it´s seen more clearly:

[RockinHarry]

And the fourth one:

And 2D editor view for pics 1 and 3:

Map editor view Pic 2:

[sburke]

Nice, very very nice. You've given me plenty of reason to be smiling on a monday morning.

[RockinHarry]

And for Pic 4:

[RockinHarry]

Nice, very very nice. You've given me plenty of reason to be smiling on a monday morning.

The editor screens look like a total mess I know. Once you know how the textures transit and "sculpting" works by tile locking at right places, it´s not that difficult to create your personal little Stalingrad. Working on building interiors and matching building textures and windows overall, to have a coherent look, is the most time consuming affair. And shifting a number of doodads around off course.

Modded textures in use:

Ground hard from Aris.

Ground Cliff from Aris (not seen in the screenies)

Ground Rocky Red (rubble)

Ground pavement

Ground pavement2

Ground cobblestones

The latter 3 are slightly desaturated, with a layer of dirt/dust added. I figured the original textures to be too blueish and "clean".

Also in use is some modded version of the skybox, clouds and haze.